Zwift problems

[Bobby dazzler]

Hi,
Bit of a long story, but it may help someone else.

I’ve been using my Apple Watch more and more during lockdown in the UK and in particular with cycling.
Started cycling for the allowed 1 hour very local to my home and using the Workout app.
This worked pretty flawlessly and gave some good insights with regard to progress etc.
Fine.

Then I got hold of a Wahoo Kickr Snap turbo trainer for the bike and things started to change...but they may have been me setting it up wrongly.

Screen mirroring to an older AppleTV 1080p in the back of the house where the turbo trainer is, and opening the Zwift app my iPhone was able to handle Bluetooth from the trainer and watch as well as the AppleTV.

Sometimes the turbo trainer would dropout and not register my speed halfway through a ride.
Sometimes the Apple Watch would stop registering my heartbeat with the Zwift app.

Sometimes nothing would bring it all back...at all.

Then I started using a strap heart rate monitor instead of the Apple Watch and leaving the Apple Watch upstairs and not putting it on at all.

Not had any trouble since.

So, if anyone’s had similar issues with Zwift under these circumstances, try my solution and drop the watch from the equation!

good luck,

 

[dave27]

The issue may be with Apple TV, it can only handle 2 Bluetooth connections with Zwift. For more than 2 you need to connect through the companion app.

I use an iPad rather than Apple TV so have never seen these issues, GP Lama did a YouTube video on that limitation this week.

 

[Bobby dazzler]

The issue may be with Apple TV, it can only handle 2 Bluetooth connections with Zwift. For more than 2 you need to connect through the companion app.

I use an iPad rather than Apple TV so have never seen these issues, GP Lama did a YouTube video on that limitation this week.

Thanks Dave27, good point.
Thing is, the ATV was only on one Bluetooth connection to my iPhone, surely?
Anyway, it doesn’t matter really. The point of the post was that all issues were resolved by taking AppleWatch out of the equation which, might be useful to know.
Best.

 

[FenC]

Screen mirroring to the ATV won’t depend on its BT ability at all, so that’s a red herring isn’t it?

Anyway, I do the opposite. I don’t use my iPhone in the equation at all - it doesn’t add any value for my setup and I don’t need to tempt fate by running static image elements for hours at a time on the OLED display.

I run a HR arm sensor that BTs to my Watch to record the workout and Ant+ connects to a USB dongle on my Mac for Zwift. My main limitation is only one BT connection on the sensors.

I let Zwift upload my ride to Strava, but I run an entirely independent indoor cycle workout on the watch as Strava can’t upload HR data as a source for the Health app, and while I love Strava as a ride tracker my Watch is my main fitness tracker.

Obviously what you suggest works for you, but I expect like most people on the Apple Watch forum “take the Watch off and leave it upstairs” is far from an ideal solution.

The issue I see most is with sensors. My HR is a Wahoo Fit and I’ve had it drop out, so the Ant+ dongle has to be on the bike using a USB extension. Ant+ should be fine for less than a meter to the laptop, but the sensor needs less than 20cm apparently.

I also have 2 Wahoo cadence sensors and both under-read randomly. I might actually pull finger an order a Garmin shortly as I think basically Wahoo sensors are poor quality and Garmin does combined BT and Ant+ now. NI’m not saying the trainer is bad; a friend is thinking of getting one just now and I haven’t discouraged that as I only have sensor experience. I use a Tacx trainer however and it is definitely rock solid.

 

[Bobby dazzler]

Obviously what you suggest works for you, but I expect like most people on the Apple Watch forum “take the Watch off and leave it upstairs” is far from an ideal solution.

Yes. That works for me.
I've been using AppleWatch as my main fitness device and it's done me proud.
Finding that it is the source of my BlueTooth issues on Zwift may be harsh to hear on the forum, but there it is.
I'm not taking at swipe at AppleWatch. I just found it disappointing let alone surprising.

In its place I'm using a Wahoo Tickr (so, no more or fewer BlueTooth devices in my setup) and no speed drop-outs since.
Respect.

 

[TJ82]

Personally I'd stop using the heart rate with it. Hard to fake 6w/kg all the way up Alpe Du Zwift when your HR is only 120 😬

 

[FenC]

Yes. That works for me.
I've been using AppleWatch as my main fitness device and it's done me proud.
Finding that it is the source of my BlueTooth issues on Zwift may be harsh to hear on the forum, but there it is.
I'm not taking at swipe at AppleWatch. I just found it disappointing let alone surprising.

In its place I'm using a Wahoo Tickr (so, no more or fewer BlueTooth devices in my setup) and no speed drop-outs since.
Respect.

All good, and I'm not precious about the Watch, I just meant that your solution of not using it is probably not the fix most of us win here would be happy with.

Anyway, have you tried running the Zwift ATV app rather than screen sharing from your iPhone? Even with only 2 BT channels I think you would be fine as you are only running an HR strap and the trainer (I think). I haven't screen shared my iPhone to an ATV for a long time, but doesn't it give you a compromised aspect ratio that way?

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

I've been using Zwift for a couple of years now, and it's worked fine. Until I bought a Kickr Bike. Well, and then the updates to iOS.

I would use a MacBook Pro, my iPad Air, and my iPhone Xs Max. The MBP would run Zwift, and has an extension cord and a BlueGiga dongle. The iPad ran Zwift Companion. The iPhone was for playing music on Bluetooth headphones paired only to that device.

It just worked. I turned on the MBP, started Zwift, paired the trainer, my Garmin bilingual strap, and would start my iPhone and start the tunes playing, and away I'd go. I have ridden for hours, once 4 hours, without a blip. Just solid. I did try ANNT+, but it had lots of dropouts, so I disconnected it.

Now?

The Bluetooth headphones I use are paired to my iCloud account, and there were often battles between who ends up with them. In the beginning, I had a beep on either the iPad, or MBP, yank the headphones away from my iPhone. Music would stop playing, usually. The idea that paired Bluetooth headphones could be yanked to another device is annoying, and a major PITA. I had to give up using my iPhone totally, and use my iPad, but still occasionally have had the connection swiped to the MBP. I've had the headphones just freak out and not deliver any music at all. It's gotten a little more stable, but I have no idea why, or how.

And onto the trainer connections. My first trainer was an H2. Rock solid, a few drops. Then I upgraded to a Neo 2T, and it didn't really appear to like ANT+, so going to Bluetooth, it would drop a few times, occasionally, during a ride. I had rides with zero drops. Now, post updates, and next trainer upgrade, and the drops were about the same. Now, and it's either the Kickr trainer, or the macOS upgrade, but I get 'Bluetooth serial failure' messages, and sometimes they come thick and rapid. The last mess I got was 2 messages hitting about every second. I reset the PRAM, and it seemed to stop the messages, but they have since come back.

So, the latest was Bluetooth dropping. I had no ERG mode. It happened about 8 minutes into a ride. I tried everything that I knew to get it to work. I even swapped trainers, and ERG was still down. I started TrainerRoad, and everything was perfect. Here's the issue, Zwift is tripping out, but TrainerRoad seems to be unaffected by the 'Bluetooth serial failure' messages, and does drop for a second or two occasionally, but seems the better app to use.

So I found out that ERG was turned off in the Zwift app. Interesting.

And, just today, 62 minutes into a ride, the entire Bluetooth system just quit working. No audio, no ERG mode, nothing. I checked, and ERG mode was enabled in Zwift. I shutdown Bluetooth, and re-enabled it, and got things back, but Zwift dinged me for the flat line while there was no connection. My AW is only connected to my iPhone. I do not use it for anything during a ride session.

With all of that laid out, I can only assume that the MBP has an issue with its Bluetooth implementation. The 'flaws' cause the system to flake out, and the latest macOS, and iOS updates aren't helping at all.

I wish there were a way to limit headphones to ONE device, as before. I've unpaired them on the iPad, and it removes it from *ALL* devices. Not helpful... I've never experienced, as I said before, the failure messages on TrainerRoad. So what is it about Zwift that appears to play on, or into, the issues with macOS, and iOS.

Doing research on the issue when ERG mode shutdown the first time, I found a lot of articles and posts from people having the same issues. Many, most, of them 'solved' their issue by replacing their Macs and Apple devices with a Windows system. I don't have a Windows system that I can experiment with. Apparently some people have had the 'Bluetooth serial failure' messages with Windows 10, but at a level much lower than with a macOS system.

I do have an Apple TV to run Zwift from, but if Zwift has a meltdown, the chances of losing the ride are great. Call it vanity, but if it's not on Strava, it didn't happen.

I hope this helps explain what I've experienced, and that someone here might have an idea how to deal with the issues without buying a new notebook. I mean, more toys is good, but if I don't need it, I would rather save the money...

Ride on!

 

[robvalentine]

I find with the watch the Zwift companion app has to be open and on screen to register the heart rate, if you change apps, then it cuts out. I usually only use the watch if I can't find my heart rate strap.

also when using an ipad for zwift and streaming music from the ipad the resistance changes would lag by approx 5-10 seconds because the bluetooth connection couldn't keep up. Hope this helps someone.

Edit - forgot to add that the bluetooth trainer connection would cut out about 5 minutes in for a short period of time (GF has same issues) where as mac and ipad was rock solid. I've used a HP Envy (2020 model) and replaced with a M1 MBP (works well through rosetta). Graphics better on Windows (discrete graphics card) but stable and usuable on the mac.

 

[Moakesy]

Oh, Zwift and dropouts!! Such a pain.

I organise a small virtual race league on Zwift as we can't do the normal CX races in real life, last week about 30% of the attendees were DNF due to dropouts. So blooming annoying.

Based on my own experience:
> Biggest issue is if you try and connect a garmin device (or similar) to record a ride at the same time as doing Zwift. This just messes all sorts of things up and seems to be guaranteed to create issues.
> Recently bought a cheap bluetooth HRM off Amazon for my g/f. Couldn't use the Garmin strap (ANT+ only) and using the Apple Watch with the companion app was very patchy. The Bluetooth HRM strap works perfectly and has solved the issue recording HR.
> Zwift is very heavy on your wifi, so coverage better be very good (or use ethernet cable if possible). Me and my g/f race at the same time in the shed, using iPad's. This seems to perform better than using a laptop....possibly because the graphic demands are lower (but I'm really not sure about this one)

@PinkyMacGodess Regarding Blue Tooth headphones, are you having issues with the auto-switching between devices? If so, I think you can stop this by going into Settings/BlueTooth/hit the ' i ' button/ change the settings in 'Connect to this iPhone' section. This screen...

Not 100% this will work for you, but might be worth a go.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

I find with the watch the Zwift companion app has to be open and on screen to register the heart rate, if you change apps, then it cuts out. I usually only use the watch if I can't find my heart rate strap.

also when using an ipad for zwift and streaming music from the ipad the resistance changes would lag by approx 5-10 seconds because the bluetooth connection couldn't keep up. Hope this helps someone.

Edit - forgot to add that the bluetooth trainer connection would cut out about 5 minutes in for a short period of time (GF has same issues) where as mac and ipad was rock solid. I've used a HP Envy (2020 model) and replaced with a M1 MBP (works well through rosetta). Graphics better on Windows (discrete graphics card) but stable and usuable on the mac.

With the graphic demands of Zwift, I wouldn't use an iPad, or iPhone, and expect it to be perfect. My MBP fan revs up, and barely slows down the entire time of a ride.

Bluetooth is notorious for being a single point connection, where ANT+ is more like an party line. ANT+ isn't very nice to use because the frequency spread they use is flooded, literally, and they are often shouted out, drowned out. I gave up ANT+ early in my trainer experience. Having to rely on Bluetooth is probably not the best, but it's the only way. I was intrigued by the new Kickr having a possible hard wire connection. I don't know why that has never been used up to this point. It's not rocket science, but dang...

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

Oh, Zwift and dropouts!! Such a pain.

I organise a small virtual race league on Zwift as we can't do the normal CX races in real life, last week about 30% of the attendees were DNF due to dropouts. So blooming annoying.

Based on my own experience:
> Biggest issue is if you try and connect a garmin device (or similar) to record a ride at the same time as doing Zwift. This just messes all sorts of things up and seems to be guaranteed to create issues.
> Recently bought a cheap bluetooth HRM off Amazon for my g/f. Couldn't use the Garmin strap (ANT+ only) and using the Apple Watch with the companion app was very patchy. The Bluetooth HRM strap works perfectly and has solved the issue recording HR.
> Zwift is very heavy on your wifi, so coverage better be very good (or use ethernet cable if possible). Me and my g/f race at the same time in the shed, using iPad's. This seems to perform better than using a laptop....possibly because the graphic demands are lower (but I'm really not sure about this one)

@PinkyMacGodess Regarding Blue Tooth headphones, are you having issues with the auto-switching between devices? If so, I think you can stop this by going into Settings/BlueTooth/hit the ' i ' button/ change the settings in 'Connect to this iPhone' section. This screen...


View attachment 1696054 View attachment 1696056

Not 100% this will work for you, but might be worth a go.

• I have used a Garmin Edge to record telemetry at the same time as using Zwift (a powermeter on my bike). I had a Neo 2T trainer, and it seemed to work as designed. I seem to have more issues with the Bluetooth connections after getting a Kickr bike. Might be a coincidence, but tons of people report the same issues with Kickr brand trainers.
• Hah, that's funny. Prior to my entry into indoor riding, I was using a Garmin ANT+ strap, and it was flawless. All my sensors are ANT+, and they, on my outdoor bike, work flawlessly. It's only after starting to ride indoors that things went sideways. *shrug* ANT+ didn't work as well due likely to various interference.
• I ran a computer networking company for decades. Anything that drinks heavy on a network, I have direct wired. It's the difference between a garden hose and a fire hose. Even the new higher speed wifi is pretty easy to saturate at times.
• Bluetooth auto-switching is a PITA. It's gotten better, somewhat. After all of the updates, if there was a beep on the MBP, I'd lose my music. Sometimes it went back, but often the player was paused. I have a fight now at the beginning of a ride over who keeps them. Everything tries to grab them, but yesterday, everything worked well, until 62 minutes into the ride like I said in my post. Weird...

Yeah, it's not perfect, but it seems to be veering farther from perfect at times. Having Bluetooth just totally drop was a surprise. I could see that with ANT+, but Bluetooth had been pretty solid, with just occasional trainer telemetry dropouts lasting fractions of a second, until lately. I was hoping things would get better, not worse.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

Hah...

After almost accusing Wahoo of causing my Bluetooth issues, they said that 'Apple has issues with the Bluetooth implementation, so use ANT+'. They are sending me one of 'their' dongles, and it's 'sure to work better'.

I would hope... I guess I should have waited to get the next version of the bike, that will likely have a port for a direct connect like the 2020 Kickr.

RANT

I get the abhorrence of cords. I used to hang myself on my Apple Ear Buds at least once every ride until I splurged on my first Bluetooth headphones, but, unless you are doing something really wrong, the trainer, or even bike AND trainer, aren't going to be going anywhere. Use cables, put a damn USB port on new trainers! PLEASE!!! Put something like Apple's MagSafe so that the connection pops off if you are that worried about connector/cord/board damage. GIVE US A HARD CONNECTION PORT!!! PLEASE!!!

/RANT

 

[Moakesy]

• I have used a Garmin Edge to record telemetry at the same time as using Zwift (a powermeter on my bike). I had a Neo 2T trainer, and it seemed to work as designed. I seem to have more issues with the Bluetooth connections after getting a Kickr bike. Might be a coincidence, but tons of people report the same issues with Kickr brand trainers.
• Hah, that's funny. Prior to my entry into indoor riding, I was using a Garmin ANT+ strap, and it was flawless. All my sensors are ANT+, and they, on my outdoor bike, work flawlessly. It's only after starting to ride indoors that things went sideways. *shrug* ANT+ didn't work as well due likely to various interference.
• I ran a computer networking company for decades. Anything that drinks heavy on a network, I have direct wired. It's the difference between a garden hose and a fire hose. Even the new higher speed wifi is pretty easy to saturate at times.
• Bluetooth auto-switching is a PITA. It's gotten better, somewhat. After all of the updates, if there was a beep on the MBP, I'd lose my music. Sometimes it went back, but often the player was paused. I have a fight now at the beginning of a ride over who keeps them. Everything tries to grab them, but yesterday, everything worked well, until 62 minutes into the ride like I said in my post. Weird...

Yeah, it's not perfect, but it seems to be veering farther from perfect at times. Having Bluetooth just totally drop was a surprise. I could see that with ANT+, but Bluetooth had been pretty solid, with just occasional trainer telemetry dropouts lasting fractions of a second, until lately. I was hoping things would get better, not worse.

Up to you of course, but I know of four people who‘s Zwift issues have been significantly reduced once they switched off their Garmin. Of all the issues, this seems the most common cause (in our league, at least).

I totally agree Zwift resilience is getting worse though. They get a lot of stick for not really fixing age old issues with their release schedule, and it certainly seems warranted.

 

[Moakesy]

And right on cue, Zwift release an update including ANT+ / BlueTooth bug fixes for certain devices!

 

[robvalentine]

With the graphic demands of Zwift, I wouldn't use an iPad, or iPhone, and expect it to be perfect. My MBP fan revs up, and barely slows down the entire time of a ride.

Bluetooth is notorious for being a single point connection, where ANT+ is more like an party line. ANT+ isn't very nice to use because the frequency spread they use is flooded, literally, and they are often shouted out, drowned out. I gave up ANT+ early in my trainer experience. Having to rely on Bluetooth is probably not the best, but it's the only way. I was intrigued by the new Kickr having a possible hard wire connection. I don't know why that has never been used up to this point. It's not rocket science, but dang...

My Ipad air 3 has been rock solid once I stopped streaming music from that as well. I have a M1 MBP (8gb ram) and it runs zwift perfectly, and uses 15-20% of the battery and the only fan noise is from the fan to cool me. My old MBP from 2014 would be fans on, and use whole battery in an hour. If Zwift is ever rewritten to use Apple Silicon then I imagine it will only get better.

Cables are always going to be best as there's 3 BT connections going on in my case to laptop/ipad (trainer/HRM (Garmin chest strap)/cadence sensor (more accurate than my saris trainers one)

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

Up to you of course, but I know of four people who‘s Zwift issues have been significantly reduced once they switched off their Garmin. Of all the issues, this seems the most common cause (in our league, at least).

I totally agree Zwift resilience is getting worse though. They get a lot of stick for not really fixing age old issues with their release schedule, and it certainly seems warranted.

I never routinely use my Edge when I'm on Zwift. I only used it two or three times to independently track the power meter when I was riding with my new (then) trainer. It was instructive, as the 1% accurate trainer proved to be a little less accurate than they claim. *shrug*

On the ANT+ experiment, I did not have any issues. I stopped and started the ride, and was able to get ERG mode to reestablish, but it took longer than normal. Who knows. I did not get an update prior to riding, so...

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

My Ipad air 3 has been rock solid once I stopped streaming music from that as well. I have a M1 MBP (8gb ram) and it runs zwift perfectly, and uses 15-20% of the battery and the only fan noise is from the fan to cool me. My old MBP from 2014 would be fans on, and use whole battery in an hour. If Zwift is ever rewritten to use Apple Silicon then I imagine it will only get better.

Cables are always going to be best as there's 3 BT connections going on in my case to laptop/ipad (trainer/HRM (Garmin chest strap)/cadence sensor (more accurate than my saris trainers one)

And yet the problem with switching sources for audio stopped when I started using the iPad for audio. Now, for whatever reason, I can have all three running again, and have audio from the iPhone. I like audio from the iPhone because I can see what track is playing, and easily skip it...