Environmentalists sue to stop CA renewable energy plants

[MongoTheGeek]

Two proposed geothermal power plants planned for federal lands in
northeastern California are in jeopardy due to a lawsuit filed by
environmental groups. Geothermal power plants use steam extracted from
wells drilled in areas near lava beds formed from past volcanic activity.

The California Wilderness Coalition, Citizens for a Quality Environment,
the Klamath Forest Alliances, and other groups recently filed suit in U.S.
District Court for the Eastern District of California against several
government agencies and Calpine Corporation, the energy company planning
to build the plants, claiming they would transform "a scenic wonderland"
into "an ugly, noisy, stinking, industrial wasteland." The suit claims
that the U.S. Bureau of Land Management and the U.S. Forest Service, which
approved the projects, failed to adequately weigh the environmental impact
of the project, in the process violating several environmental laws.

If built, the plants each would provide 50 megawatts of power.


Not sure what to say...

[dopefiend]

I'm all for different types of energy, but:

claiming they would transform "a scenic wonderland"
into "an ugly, noisy, stinking, industrial wasteland."

This is true and is what I've heard about hawaii's . (atleast the plants that I've seen in pictures.)

[MongoTheGeek]

I'm all for different types of energy, but:



This is true and is what I've heard about hawaii's . (atleast the plants that I've seen in pictures.)

The pictures I've seen of ones in Iceland look fairly innocuous.

Doing a quick google for images they all seem to be fairly small footprint with a road in and lines out. The only output from them are copious clouds of steam.

[Mr. Anderson]

The sad thing is that these environmentalists are shooting down free, cheap and a relatively renewable energy source that isn't going to harm the environment like gas, oil or coal.

I think what they are complaining about is harm done to their aesthetic tastes in seeing a power plant in the wilderness....blah!

D

[Mr. Anderson]

http://www.ormat.com/projects_613.htm

look at the power generating capacity! and its renewable.

So you have a industrial farm in the middle of no where....put a big enough fence around it, or decorate it with ivy or other natural cover and get over it.

D

[Abstract]

Building a plant that helps the environment by producing clean energy, but ruining the surrounding environment completely.......that sounds counterproductive, I think.

They're only taking advantage of steam, so what with the dirty industrial comments? What makes them worse than any other plant?

[hob]

how can environmentalist be opposed to renewable energy??

[krimson]

I think the problem is that they'll create a giant steaming lake/moat around the plant. Im not sure exactly where this is going to be put in, but I'd rather have a Geothermal plant in the middle of nowhere (including the lake) than a giant fossil fuel plant.

[flyfish29]

how can environmentalist be opposed to renewable energy??

I think the point is where they are putting it and how it is designed. It is not against the renewable energy, but how it is being implemented. I would guess there is a big reason why...unless they are all smoking too much pot...then maybe it is where they are growing the crops :D Maybe the steam will kill their plants.

On a more serious note...the recent oil issues abroad and our ignoranance about the real problem with our current energy sources and high usage rates are the important thing to keep in mind. I hope they get this figured out so they can get to work on a good source of energy that IS renewable and not damaging to the landscape *(within reason).

Johnny

[MongoTheGeek]

On a more serious note...the recent oil issues abroad and our ignoranance about the real problem with our current energy sources and high usage rates are the important thing to keep in mind. I hope they get this figured out so they can get to work on a good source of energy that IS renewable and not damaging to the landscape *(within reason).

Most of the designs that I have seen are not that intrusive and don't have to be. They are fairly low profile, 2 stories, and not all that large, an acre or so) Most of it takes place underground. All you need is a few pumps and a couple of turbines and some heat exchangers. In a decade trees will obscure everything except a steam cloud and external access.

[wdlove]

It seems that environmental groups are all about complaining. They never seem to be happy no matter what. We have the same problem here in Massachusetts. A group wants to build a wind farm 100 miles off of Cape Cod. It would produce enough energy to almost supply the Cape. It's environmental groups that complain. It seems that they won't be happy till we are living in caves again.

[flyfish29]

Most of the designs that I have seen are not that intrusive and don't have to be. They are fairly low profile, 2 stories, and not all that large, an acre or so) Most of it takes place underground. All you need is a few pumps and a couple of turbines and some heat exchangers. In a decade trees will obscure everything except a steam cloud and external access.

I agree, most of the designs I have seen are similar, but obviously there is a reason they are protesting it at that specific site...I just hope it is a legit one and not just that we need a few more grass blades or trees. Cause if we continue down the non-renewable pollution creating road we are on we are going to living in those caves soon enough as well as having roads that have to be covered due to the pollution like in all the sci fi movies.

[virividox]

if enviromentalists had their way we would all be frolicing with rabbits with flowers in our hair in a powerless, techless utopia

BAH

[Counterfit]

It seems that environmental groups are all about complaining. They never seem to be happy no matter what. We have the same problem here in Massachusetts. A group wants to build a wind farm 100 miles off of Cape Cod. It would produce enough energy to almost supply the Cape. It's environmental groups that complain. It seems that they won't be happy till we are living in caves again. I think in the Cape Cod case it's also fishermen and general boat people that don't like it. In a dense fog, it would be very easy to nail one of those suckers right on.

[Calvinatir]

F*ck environmentalists

[flyfish29]

F*ck environmentalists

I don't necessarily like or agree the extremest stances many environmentalist groups take, but unfortunately we live in a society where the only real change seems to happen when there are those that take that stance.

I believe this extremist stance does several things to promote change. It creates discussion like this one here. I know I hadn't thought about boats running into the wind turbines on the ocean during fog and if it hadn't been for this extreme stance being discussed here I might have never known that fact.

I believe extremests also make it easier for my own comments and thoughts to be heard and not seem so extreme to those that oppose me or don't understand the issue. If there was no one in that "extreme" role then all of the sudden I am extreme...when actually in reality my thoughts are not so extreme.

The civil rights movement might have never happened if there hadn't been extremist groups to make those speaking about change seem less extreme.

[e-coli]

F*ck environmentalists

Well, that was intelligent. Thanks for your input. :rolleyes:

I think if they got an environmentally-sensitive architect, they could perhaps bridge the gap between the two groups. But, in the U.S, architecture is not seen as the fusion of art, science, and environmentalism that it truly is.

I would propose opening up the project to a competition of architects and landscape architects with the goal of creating a site that has a minimal footprint, and minimal environmental impact. One that blends into the surrounding landscape. There's many structures that can be used as precedent for this.

[kgarner]

It's ironic to me that the environmentalist groups seem to actually keep us more dependent on fossil fuels. They are consistently attacking other means of power production (Hydroelectric, Geothermal, etc.) because of "adverse" effects on the surrounding environment. Yes there will be some adverse effects to the immediate environment, but for right now it does not appear possible to generate power--which we need--without affecting the environment to some dgree. These groups keep these alternative power plants from being constructed essentially forcing us to continue using fossil fuels for power generation. I know they would love to get rid of those as well, but they can't as it is too well established and so it remains our major source of energy.

If they embraced some of these alternative methods (which they support in principle, but not in practice as evidenced by the many suits against such plants) instead of blocking every attempt to build one, we might be able to decrease our dependence on fossil fuels for power generation. This would only leave our cars still using fossil fuels. Eventually, we could get rid of those as well, but we have to start somewhere.

[flyfish29]

Well, that was intelligent. Thanks for your input. :rolleyes:

I would propose opening up the project to a competition of architects and landscape architects with the goal of creating a site that has a minimal footprint, and minimal environmental impact. One that blends into the surrounding landscape. There's many structures that can be used as precedent for this.

Very good idea! And I am still cracking up over your firstl line! :D

[mactastic]

F*ck environmentalists


Good thing I'm a conservationist rather than an environmentalist or I'd take that personally.... :rolleyes:

[Finiksa]

F*ck environmentalists

I have! Scaling the sides of nuclear powered ships and chaining themselves to trees really builds muscle.

I highly recommend it…

[windowsblowsass]

how can environmentalist be opposed to renewable energy??
theese are hippies not enviromentalists (enviromentalists hope for a better enviroment and moan but less so than hippies who like to dress mup and smoke pot and if something looks bad they dont like it also most are opposed to goverment and are hypocrites ie save the enviroment but drive around in a hue bus and do nothing except get high)
venting done

[wdlove]

If they are going to continue to complain about attempts at renewable energy, then they have no right to complain. They can't have their cake and eat it too. Haven't they every heard of the art of compromise, or is that a dead art?

[tooflets]

The problem that the environmentalists are most likely focusing on is that these would probably be steam turbine plants where water would be injected into the ground, flashed into steam by the geothermal heat, the steam would drive turbines that produce electricity & then the steam would be vented into the atmosphere. This means you require turbines, pumps/injectors, typical mess of electrical distribution equipment & all the associated buidlings. Plus you end up with assorted dissolved chemicals that are leached out of the ground & that then come out with the steam & end up precipitated or rained out both locally & downwind.

It seems like there should be some way to utilize heatpipe technology to convert the subsurface heat directly into electricity without using the injection & subsequent release of polluted steam.

[Frohickey]

Why are any of you surprised about this at all?

Environmentalists are for the environment, they are also against people.
They would like for everyone to return to subsistence farming using oxen and plow, no, make that no plow and no irrigation ditches, since that would harm the aesthetics of the area.

Do it for Gaia!!!!

(Did I do good? Didn't I say what you wanted me to say? Nooooo... no the electric prod. I SAID WHAT YOU WANTED ME TO SAY!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! <ZAP> <whimper> )

[flyfish29]

(Did I do good? Didn't I say what you wanted me to say? Nooooo... no the electric prod. I SAID WHAT YOU WANTED ME TO SAY!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! <ZAP> <whimper> )

Drink up! :D :eek: :D

[mactastic]

Why are any of you surprised about this at all?

Environmentalists are for the environment, they are also against people.
They would like for everyone to return to subsistence farming using oxen and plow, no, make that no plow and no irrigation ditches, since that would harm the aesthetics of the area.

Do it for Gaia!!!!

(Did I do good? Didn't I say what you wanted me to say? Nooooo... no the electric prod. I SAID WHAT YOU WANTED ME TO SAY!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! <ZAP> <whimper> )

And non-environmentalists are against the environment too huh?

[Frohickey]

And non-environmentalists are against the environment too huh?

Some are.

This non-environmentalist is for the environment. At least the environment that I own and have a vested interest in maximizing the return on investment.

If I had 1 square mile of wilderness territory, I would be doing my best to improve the property, getting rid of invasive plants that are parasitically killing off the other foilage in the area. Of course, I would also be improving the property, as in putting water sources and encouraging the growth of desirable plantlife (in order to encourage the proliferation of tasty venison meat factories). :D :D :D

Oh, I would also be improving the property by intentionally digging and enlarging a depression on my property in the hopes of flooding it and getting some cold-blooded animals (fish and frogs, not politicians) to live in it.

Okay, so the side benefit is that the wilderness territory would be improved, and wildlife will flourish. But the value of the area, to me, is increased greatly.

Imagine what would happen if the tax system were set up so that desired uses, such as what I have outlined is encouraged (not subsidized, only encouraged) by marginally lower tax rates, than other uses of land (bulldozing and clearcutting for a mall).

[KingSleaze]

I have! Scaling the sides of nuclear powered ships and chaining themselves to trees really builds muscle.

I highly recommend it…

In my Navy days, I worked on those nuclear powered ships. The amount of documentation that we had to provide to demonstrate that the nuclear plant wasn't affecting the environment would choke a herd of horses.
Imressive when an oil fired plant also puts heat into the water, but also various combustion gases into the air. Nuclear plants are less polluting. But what about the nuclear waste? The materials already existed in nature, they were just concentrated for use. Regulations prohibit the materials being spread out for disposal. So, yes, there is a localized increase in background radiation at a disposal site. But only there and not spread all over like combustion gases.

Those environmentalists opposing the geothermal plants are ignoring the fact that an environmental impact statement had to be filed prior to approval for the site. Obviously, they weren't asked their opinions.

[MongoTheGeek]

The problem that the environmentalists are most likely focusing on is that these would probably be steam turbine plants where water would be injected into the ground, flashed into steam by the geothermal heat, the steam would drive turbines that produce electricity & then the steam would be vented into the atmosphere. This means you require turbines, pumps/injectors, typical mess of electrical distribution equipment & all the associated buidlings. Plus you end up with assorted dissolved chemicals that are leached out of the ground & that then come out with the steam & end up precipitated or rained out both locally & downwind.

It seems like there should be some way to utilize heatpipe technology to convert the subsurface heat directly into electricity without using the injection & subsequent release of polluted steam.

Probably the best solution is to condense the steam and then reinject it. I am not sure about how much stuff will be carried up out of the ground by the steam though.

[mactastic]

Some are.

So would it be fair to say you were being overly rhetorical when you claimed that every environmentalist is against people? You're saying I personally am against people? Is that what you are really trying to say? Or were you just trying to make another of your overly dramatic, yet mostly untruthful points?

[dopefiend]

Green Peace = morons...

And thats all I have to say :D

[mactastic]

Green Peace = morons...

And thats all I have to say :D

Got any proof of that, or are you another one of those who says things that sound nice to them but are inane, slanderous, and entirely untrue?

[dopefiend]

Got any proof of that, or are you another one of those who says things that sound nice to them but are inane, slanderous, and entirely untrue?

After seeing them do a few of the things they do(crashing their ship into another, spraying people off of boats with water,terroristic acts) I could only think of them this way.

[mactastic]

After seeing them do a few of the things they do(crashing their ship into another, spraying people off of boats with water,terroristic acts) I made this decision .

So the military are a bunch of morons? They've done worse things with their tactics, yet because of the ideological difference you feel you can call Greenpeace morons? What are you smoking dopefiend?

[dopefiend]

So the military are a bunch of morons? They've done worse things with their tactics, yet because of the ideological difference you feel you can call Greenpeace morons? What are you smoking dopefiend?

What the hell does the military have to do with a bunch of pissed off hippies?

[mactastic]

What the hell does the military have to do with a bunch of pissed off hippies?

You say that anyone who knocks people off boats, or crashes their ship into something is a moron right? Or is it just pissed off hippies that you feel are morons and you just can't explain yourself?

[dopefiend]

You say that anyone who knocks people off boats, or crashes their ship into something is a moron right? Or is it just pissed off hippies that you feel are morons and you just can't explain yourself?

They use tactics that most people with half a brain know won't work.

(seriously, hitting a ship to stop a nuclear test? :rolleyes: come on...)

[mactastic]

They use tactics that most people with half a brain know won't work.

(seriously, hitting a ship to stop a nuclear test? :rolleyes: come on...)

So do lots of people. Since most people with half a brain know that trying to kill all the terrorists won't work, I think you just called GWB a moron!

[dopefiend]

think you just called GWB a moron!

So? You think because Im against GreenPeace, I am a Bush supporter and that should affect me or something??

[mactastic]

So? You think because Im against GreenPeace, I am a Bush supporter and that should affect me or something??

No, I think you don't know what your talking about when you say greenpeace = morons. You can't defend that statement or the logic behind it so you resort to the 'pissed off hippies' line that also is clearly false. Make more rational statements of expect to get called on them.

[dopefiend]

No, I think you don't know what your talking about when you say greenpeace = morons. You can't defend that statement or the logic behind it so you resort to the 'pissed off hippies' line that also is clearly false. Make more rational statements of expect to get called on them.

I gave you the reason for me saying it.
I told you an example.

I don't know how else I can back up my own opinion of them.

[mactastic]

I gave you the reason for me saying it.
I told you an example.

I don't know how else I can back up my own opinion of them.

Your definition of moron is people who do things that people with half a brain (whatever that kind of definition is :rolleyes: ) know won't work, right?

I submit that is a statement that is so sweeping that it includes far more than just Greenpeace, it incorporates nearly everyone. (Have you ever tried to get a girls number when everyone around you 'with half a brain' knew you were out of your league? Then guess what that makes you!) Your credibility as a debater of factual information goes right out the window when you say things like that. Would you listen long to me if I posted saying 'Christians = Morons' and persisted in telling you that because they do stupid things that people with half a brain know won't work, would you buy that argument? I kinda doubt it.

[dopefiend]

I submit that is a statement that is so sweeping that it includes far more than just Greenpeace, it incorporates nearly everyone.

A lot of people fall into the "moron" catagory. ;)

[mactastic]

A lot of people fall into the "moron" catagory. ;)

You're tellin me... :rolleyes: :D

[MongoTheGeek]

I should have just opened this thread in politics.

I find humor and irony in that the person with the handle "dopefiend" is supporting the more conservative point of view with the person with an avatar that looks for all the world like an angry skinhead is taking the environmental stance.

[dopefiend]

I should have just opened this thread in politics.

I find humor and irony in that the person with the handle "dopefiend" is supporting the more conservative point of view with the person with an avatar that looks for all the world like an angry skinhead is taking the environmental stance.

Interesting world eh? :p

[mactastic]

What are you talking about, that IS an angry skinhead!

But don't put me in the crazy environmentalist catagory (which seems to be the only brand of environmentalist Frohickey or dopefiend see). I don't think the environmental groups are taking the right stance in this instance, I mean come on... opposing a geothermal plant? Even if it does eff up the landscape, any kind of power generation method is going to do that and would you rather have a gas or coal fired plant, or a geothermal one looking ugly in your landscape?

But to go from there to "F*** environmentalists" and "Greenpeace = Morons" is stupid jingoism designed to tar an entire group with the views of their more extreme members.

Did you tar the entire Army with the abuse brush? So why tar the entire conservation movement with one?

[MongoTheGeek]

What are you talking about, that IS an angry skinhead!


:)

But don't put me in the crazy environmentalist catagory (which seems to be the only brand of environmentalist Frohickey or dopefiend see). I don't think the environmental groups are taking the right stance in this instance, I mean come on... opposing a geothermal plant? Even if it does eff up the landscape, any kind of power generation method is going to do that and would you rather have a gas or coal fired plant, or a geothermal one looking ugly in your landscape?

But to go from there to "F*** environmentalists" and "Greenpeace = Morons" is stupid jingoism designed to tar an entire group with the views of their more extreme members.

Did you tar the entire Army with the abuse brush? So why tar the entire conservation movement with one?

I try not to lump the entire environmentalist movement together. I realize that there are well intentioned and well meaning people lumped in with the nutjobs and when you accuse them of being the nutjobs they tend to associate with them.

There are certain policies that *SOME* environmentalists have that I disagree with and I imagine that you disagree with as well. On the other hand there are policies that I like. I think its a good thing for people to buy land and hold it as pristine. I think it is good to take the lead out of gasoline.

I didn't mean to lump anyone I was just appreciating the irony. :) Its one of my few pleasures in life.

A side comment on the "F*** Environmentalists" said by someone it did make me think rather longingly of a certain hippie chick. She just couldn't stand that I had more leg hair than she did.

[mactastic]

I try not to lump the entire environmentalist movement together.

Well, that wasn't aimed at you. That was for dopefiend and his 'Greenpeace = Morons' comment.

[KingSleaze]

So do lots of people. Since most people with half a brain know that trying to kill all the terrorists won't work, I think you just called GWB a moron!

That's because you CAN'T kill all the terrorists. Because I haven't done anything yet, because I have the knowledge, because I have the capability, I could be classified as a terrorist. I'm a fine upstanding law abiding citizen. But that doesn't prevent me from trying to educate others about how to stop terrorists.

Generalizations are fine things. Remember the exceptions.