Apple's Royalty Payments to Nokia Estimated at $608 Million Up Front, ~$138 Million Per Quarter

Some of you aren't getting it. There was a reason Apple held out on paying Nokia. It was never in dispute that they owed anything.

Most of Nokia's IP relates to international wireless standards, and the licensing of this particular IP, such as GSM, is a far different beast than other IP. There's really no way around *not* licensing it to others, and no way around others *not* having to use it.

There are, however, rules that the licensor of this IP must abide by (given the nature of this IP); namely and in particularly under Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory terms, known as FRAND. As you can tell, this sort of thing doesn't at all apply to all IP. However, Nokia's is quite fundamental to the mobile industry, i.e., GSM. Nokia must license according to reasonable terms. The issue was, what was meant by Fair, Reasonable, and Non-Discriminatory, and whether Nokia was or was not offering the license to Apple under these terms. Apple was looking for these terms, in particular for the same treatment Nokia gave to every other licensee.

Apple alleged that Nokia's terms were *not* Fair, Reasonable, and Non-Discriminatory (and not at parity with the terms Nokia offered to other licensees) whereas they are required to be. We don't know exactly how much Nokia was asking. We know that Apple did not have a lot of similar patents that Nokia had to license under FRAND, so we can just as well assume that they were asking for more than what Apple thought was justified.

Given that this case didn't go on for very long, means that that one of the parties likely gave in to the other. Someone caved. We really don't know who tapped out first. However, do note that Apple already had three of the patents excluded. Further, one of the parties needed the deal (as in, money) more than the other, and given the early resolution, they needed the deal *now.*

Draw your own conclusions.

damnn nokia is getting paid. Apple is alright, you will make that back with the new Iphone sales...

*LTD* said:

Some of you aren't getting it. There was a reason Apple held out on paying Nokia. It was never in dispute that they owed anything.

Most of Nokia's IP relates to international wireless standards, and the licensing of this particular IP, such as GSM, is a far different beast than other IP. There's really no way around *not* licensing it to others, and no way around others *not* having to use it.

There are, however, rules that the licensor of this IP must abide by, namely and in particularly under Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory terms, known as FRAND. As you can tell, this sort of thing doesn't at all apply to all IP. However, Nokia's is quite fundamental to the mobile industry, i.e., GSM. Nokia must license according to reasonable terms. The issue was, what was meant by Fair, Reasonable, and Non-Discriminatory.

Apple alleged that Nokia's terms were *not* Fair, Reasonable, and Non-Discriminatory whereas they are required to be. We don't know exactly hoe much Nokia was asking. We know that Apple did not have a lot of similar patents that Nokia had to license under FRAND, so we can just as well assume that they were asking for more than what Apple thought was justified.

Given that this cue didn't go on for very long, means that that one of the parties had to give in to the other. We really don't know who tapped out first. However, do note that Apple already had three of the patents excluded already. Further, one of the parties needed the deal (as in, money) more than the other, and given the early resolution, they needed the deal *now.*

Draw your own conclusions.

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Yes - one of the parties DID need the deal. Apple. You'd like to think people (like me, perhaps) don't get it - or you. The problem is - we do. We don't agree and we're looking at this situation from a holistic point of view - not one of a 100 percent faith believer in Apple.

You will never be seen on these boards as someone with perspective. Because you have none. Even when/if you post with some clarity in thought - the problem is, you're known to have this incredible unwavering bias.

This is interesting news. It provides an insurance policy for Nokia when/if WP7 fails. Nokia has always made very good, very basic phones. There is still a market for those--one that is being neglected by every manufacturer out there.

If WP7 turns out to be a flop, as every other incarnation of it has been, then why bother with smartphones? Nokia can go back to making simple and reliable phones for consumers who aren't interested in anything else, while still bringing in a significant amount of revenue from Apple and other licensors.

PeterQVenkman said:

That's what they need the money for!

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Ever thought about Apple using the WIN7 Nokia Phones to go after Android?
This would certainly drop kick the process.

I for one like WIN7 Mobile. I also do not see Nokia WIN7 phones minimizing iOS 5.

They could however take a nice bite from Android. Call it what you will, but I think Apple is looking out 5 years on this, and in a strange way, partnering with Nokia/Microsoft to take the wind out of the Android/Google Sails.

It just might work.

samcraig said:

Yes - one of the parties DID need the deal. Apple. You'd like to think people (like me, perhaps) don't get it - or you. The problem is - we do. We don't agree and we're looking at this situation from a holistic point of view - not one of a 100 percent faith believer in Apple.

You will never be seen on these boards as someone with perspective. Because you have none. Even when/if you post with some clarity in thought - the problem is, you're know to have this incredible unwavering bias.

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I think removal of posts that diplay THIS kind of bias should either be removed completely or users be given time outs as its borderline trolling.

*LTD* said:

Some of you aren't getting it.

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Anytime you start a post with this... 95% of the forum moves on to the next post.

wikus said:

I think removal of posts that diplay THIS kind of bias should either be removed completely or users be given time outs as its borderline trolling.

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Apple did need it. Without it they can't have a GSM phone period.

Mattie Num Nums said:

Anytime you start a post with this... 95% of the forum moves on to the next post.

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I disagree. I think it's more like 98%

I think Wikus was agreeing with me - not stating my post was biased.

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

Wouldn't the specifics of THESE patents, and the specific uses of them, and the specific closed-doors negotiations, be much larger factors than "previous patent-related settlements in the industry"?

It's like saying there's an unknown item of food hidden in a box, and based on past food prices, it probably costs around $7.23.

Mattie Num Nums said:

Apple did need it. Without it they can't have a GSM phone period.

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I was referring to LTD. His bias and false statements are offensive and an insult to my intelligence and everyone else.

Wow. For that kind of cash, Apple should have considered buying Nokia (not for the product, but for the patent portfolio).

wikus said:

I was referring to LTD. His bias and false statements are offensive and an insult to my intelligence and everyone else.

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This is true. He disagreed though. Noticed you got negged on your post. ]

Kwill said:

Wow. For that kind of cash, Apple should have considered buying Nokia!

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I'm so sick of this statement. Do people realize most of Apple's "cash" is worthless because Apple is lobbying to not pay taxes on it. Can't spend money you technically don't have or haven't paid taxes for.

Mak47 said:

This is interesting news. It provides an insurance policy for Nokia when/if WP7 fails. Nokia has always made very good, very basic phones. There is still a market for those--one that is being neglected by every manufacturer out there.

If WP7 turns out to be a flop, as every other incarnation of it has been, then why bother with smartphones? Nokia can go back to making simple and reliable phones for consumers who aren't interested in anything else, while still bringing in a significant amount of revenue from Apple and other licensors.

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This is only little money compared to what Nokia would rake in before killing their OSes.

Ramon Llamas: "Nokia is very fast at turning things around."

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That sentence alone proves he doesn't know what he's talking about. It is Nokia's giant bureaucratic machine involved in every meaningful decision that has been strangling them in a quickly evolving business. The slowness to react to new customer needs and market trends is very characteristic to Nokia.

In the mobile phone business Nokia only prospered upon a time when there were no equal competitors. Several years ago (before iPhone basically) they were way ahead of any other phone maker. And when the iPhone was released, the general reaction at Nokia was to laugh arrogantly and play down the media hype.

Announcing that they're going to publish the first WP device almost a year (that's their optimistic aim, anyway) after the publication of their strategy shift isn't exactly turning things around very fast. But if the aim was to sink their stock price, they succeeded quite well.

Still, milking their old patents is exactly what they should be doing. At least they're doing something correctly. That provides them with some cashflow, but it doesn't help the dwindling phone sales at all.

samcraig said:

I disagree. I think it's more like 98%

I think Wikus was agreeing with me - not stating my post was biased.

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Can't we just all get along?

I am fine with whatever happens, as long as my iphone works. Can't get sucked into he said/she said, my patent, your patent.

It's all about $$$$ anyway.

Figure it out and give us the next iphone ASAP please..

wikus said:

Again, please don't make false statements.

Apple wasn't paying, they got sued. Even macrumors posted this;

https://www.macrumors.com/2009/10/2...uit-against-apple-regarding-wireless-patents/

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https://www.macrumors.com/2009/12/11/apple-files-countersuit-against-nokia/

Update: According to the court filing posted by Digital Daily, Apple accuses Nokia of demanding unreasonable licensing terms, including reciprocal access to intellectual property owned by Apple, for a variety of its patents.

Through the present suit, Nokia has asserted unfounded claims of infringement and breached licensing commitments it made to license on F/RAND [Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory] terms all patents that it claimed were necessary for a party to practice standards. Nokia has also violated those licensing commitments by demanding unjustifiable royalties and reciprocal licenses to Apple's patents covering Apple's pioneering technology -- patents unrelated to any industry standard. This attempt by Nokia to leverage patents previously pledged to industry standards is an effort to free ride on the commercial success of Apple's innovative iPhone while avoiding liability for copying the iPhone and infringing Apple's patents.
Apple denies that any of Nokia's patents cited in its own lawsuit are "essential" to standards, but even if a court should rule any of the contested claims valid, Apple should be granted F/RAND licensing terms, which Nokia has refused to offer.

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I don't purport to support anything LTD says, but you guys need to do some homework. Nokia's say in the dispute was that Apple didn't pay, yes, but Apple's reciprocal say in the dispute was indeed that Nokia wanted terms in violation of F/RAND commitments. I don't see how that was in any way a false statement as quoted.

Edit: I like how I got negged for posting factual information with links. That's rich.

Dying Junkie Finds "Huge Stash"....

Which will allow the junky to stay "juiced" for a few more years...before the inevitable happens. RIP Nokia...

samcraig said:

LOL. Run for congress - you're great at sidestepping.

Now Nokia is not only negligent (in your opinion) but WILLFUL? Too funny. You also start my saying IF Apple owed money - and then you stated that Apple did owe Nokia money - the question was how much. Do you see how you shape your posts to serve your purpose/twist it anyway you can to keep Apple ahead in the arrangement?

Here's the fact. Nokia owned patents. Apple used them. Apple was sued and lost and now has to make restitution. There's no patent trolling going on. There's a legitimate patent holder who enforced their rights via the legal system.

BELIEVE me - if this were Apple's patents and Nokia was sued and lost - you'd be shouting how great it is that someone who dared opposed Apple got shot down. Of that I am certain.

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I'm reading what LTD is saying, and I'm reading your response. And clearly, the discontinuity is that LTD is just arguing way over your head. You seem not to have the sophistication to understand his point, so you are arguing against something else entirely.

It is not disputed by ANYONE (not by LTD nor Apple) that Nokia has valid, fundamental patents that are necessary to create a cellphone product; nor is it disputed by ANYONE that Apple utilized technologies to which Nokia had rights under those patents. Rather, what Apple has stated (and LTD has repeated) is that the demands that Nokia made on Apple for compensation were onerous and inconsistent with the compensation Nokia has made on other users of this technology. Based on the information available, there is no way to verify the validity of this-- we don't know what Nokia's original demand was, nor what other companies are paying.

The other point LTD is making is that Nokia was negligent in managing their business-- they had a leadership advantage which they squandered by making poor choices. His use of the word WILLFUL is interesting-- it implies that Nokia was not making choices based on the best interests of their stockholders but, willfully, on some other basis. I don't know enough to say whether that is true, but clearly that is what LTD means.

Steve Ballmer must be pissed of. Nokia is now more expensive to buy. I still don't know how nokia hasn't been bought yet (samsung / apple / ms).
Lately they haven't done anything right, let's hope they do something good, I still think that they should have went with MeeGo.
Anyway nowadays cellphones are darn expensive in here let's hope that they do something to spice the competition a little.

Glideslope said:

Ever thought about Apple using the WIN7 Nokia Phones to go after Android?
This would certainly drop kick the process.

I for one like WIN7 Mobile. I also do not see Nokia WIN7 phones minimizing iOS 5.

They could however take a nice bite from Android. Call it what you will, but I think Apple is looking out 5 years on this, and in a strange way, partnering with Nokia/Microsoft to take the wind out of the Android/Google Sails.

It just might work.

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There is also a symbiotic relationship between OSX and Windows on Apple Intel hardware that is beneficial to both parties.

But Nokia soon will have little if any marketshare

Nokia's marketshare is going downhill.

Sure, it has royalties from the iPhone.

But its phone business is dying a slow death.

After a while, its patents will be dead and it will receive nothing from Apple.

Windows Phone is NOT going to resuscitate Nokia. The problem is that Windows Phone COSTS Money off the top. It lowers one's profit.

Nokia's hardware also sucks compared to Android hardware. They simply can't move as fast as the Asian companies.

Nokia's only chance is to become a patent troll where it can. It can now sue Android hardware makers and win.

Nokia will feast while it can. But it has NO TALENT for software. That is a KILLER WEAKNESS in the Smartphone Business.

As Smartphones become commodities thanks to Android, Apple will live at the top of the heap with the most profits, while Nokia will be squeezed toward the bottom by Android.

Die, Nokia, Die. Just like the Wicked Witch in Oz.

P.S. Another GOOD THING is that Nokia HAS NO LICENSE TO ANY APPLE PATENT. Thus they can't copy Apple. They can only be a puppet to Microsoft.

I have a question. If company X owns a patent on a type of technology, does company X have the right to refuse to license that technology to company Y? And can they pick and choose who they will allow to use that technology? I'm not trying to get involved in any kind of ongoing disagreement here. I'm really just curious. Thank you.

Mattie Num Nums said:

Not only that I think Android is proving to be more than competent seeing how Apple is using ideas from Android to power iOS5.

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and even some from (gasp!) the wretchedly inferior windows phone 7. <shudder>



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Nokia might fetch $39 billion, judging by comparable companies. The company's current market value is $24.6 billion, after tumbling 78 percent since Apple introduced the iPhone in 2007.

Article here


Apple could probably buy them out tomorrow. On the other hand, keeping Nokia under their heel gives them the semblance of competition. The last thing Apple wants is to be accused of having a Monopoly.

samcraig said:

Here's the fact. Nokia owned patents. Apple used them. Apple was sued and lost and now has to make restitution. There's no patent trolling going on. There's a legitimate patent holder who enforced their rights via the legal system.

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You really don't know what a win or loss is, and what isn't, unless you have access to the settlement documents and know what the bargaining chips were. If they wanted say, $20 a unit and Apple refused to pay, then they negotiate to $6 a unit, who won?