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2010mini

macrumors 601
Jun 19, 2013
4,698
4,806
If something is all powerful and all knowing and supposedly good, then there is no reason that horrible things would or could happen. in other words, people praise the lord because little Johnny survived 9 11. So did God hate the other 3000 people?

Regardless, isn't it childish to debate whether an adult version of Santa exists? The proof that God doesn't exist is common sense. Just like I don't need proof that hobbits don't exist, I don't need scientific proof that Thor or Odin or abrahamic gods don't exist. They are all fictional stories made up by men.

Why don't we argue about hobbits-- cause that would be absurd right? We all know Tolkien made that up. So because we weren't around 2000 years ago we have to assume myths told then were true? Does the word "religion" placed in front of stories make them non fiction all the sudden? Why would any sane person take as true stories told by mostly illiterate people to entertain and because they lacked an understanding of basic science. The fact that anyone today would "buy" God or religion is laughable, if not just sad. I suppose 2000 years from now Martin Luther king or ghandi will be "gods" too. Common sense. I hear thunder, don't know why. Ahh, I'll use the word God to explain. That's how the whole God thing started. Okay, we are beyond that now (or should be).

No religion treats Moses, Abraham as gods thousands of years after they existed. So I can safely say 2000 years from now no one will treat MLK, Ghandi etc as gods. Santa does not exist because its roots can be traced back to a beginning. the same goes for hobits because we absolutely know where it came from.

BTW since it seems that we are arguing about the christian deity which you refer to in that 9/11 example. Then you misunderstand its descriptions in the bible. God there is neither "good" nor "evil".... God just IS. It refers to MAN as being good and evil in choices we make. IT also says man was given FREE will to do good or evil. And that choice has nothing to do with God existing or not.

I thought I would be given some scientific examples of no existence of a supreme intelligence. I know I would never get such proof in the positive from religious folks. But silly me, I thought those of you seemingly relegating religious people to those of lesser intelligence would be different.
sigh.
 

APlotdevice

macrumors 68040
Sep 3, 2011
3,145
3,861
No religion treats Moses, Abraham as gods thousands of years after they existed. So I can safely say 2000 years from now no one will treat MLK, Ghandi etc as gods. Santa does not exist because its roots can be traced back to a beginning. the same goes for hobits because we absolutely know where it came from.
sigh.

After they existed? There's no proof that men like Moses or Abraham ever existed in the first place.
 

APlotdevice

macrumors 68040
Sep 3, 2011
3,145
3,861
BTW since it seems that we are arguing about the christian deity which you refer to in that 9/11 example. Then you misunderstand its descriptions in the bible. God there is neither "good" nor "evil".... God just IS. It refers to MAN as being good and evil in choices we make. IT also says man was given FREE will to do good or evil. And that choice has nothing to do with God existing or not.

The problem with the free will argument is that then why does God so harshly punish those for not making the choice he wanted them to when he gave them the ability to make that choice?

Well, I should say that's more a problem with the Christian interpretation, as Judaism does not have a hell per se.
 

bandrews

macrumors 6502a
Jul 18, 2008
887
2,204
No religion treats Moses, Abraham as gods thousands of years after they existed. So I can safely say 2000 years from now no one will treat MLK, Ghandi etc as gods. Santa does not exist because its roots can be traced back to a beginning. the same goes for hobits because we absolutely know where it came from.

BTW since it seems that we are arguing about the christian deity which you refer to in that 9/11 example. Then you misunderstand its descriptions in the bible. God there is neither "good" nor "evil".... God just IS. It refers to MAN as being good and evil in choices we make. IT also says man was given FREE will to do good or evil. And that choice has nothing to do with God existing or not.

I thought I would be given some scientific examples of no existence of a supreme intelligence. I know I would never get such proof in the positive from religious folks. But silly me, I thought those of you seemingly relegating religious people to those of lesser intelligence would be different.
sigh.
OK, let's take this back to it's roots. Man evolves (because Genesis never happened) and settles around the globe. With homosapiens ability to question and reason they start asking "why". Without microscopes and large hadron colliders and understanding fossils and stuff they come to the conclusion someone bigger and better must've done it. Some people say it was one god, others believe there was a different god for every facet of life. If god existed you would find existence of the same religion emerging independently across the globe. It is not and never has been spread by god - but by people and the only way religions become dominant is by domination. The church became the super power it is today not by the love and kindness of Jesus' teachings but by greed, corruption, violence, intimidation and fear.

If you argue that God was able to influence people to do that then he can influence paedophiles to not abuse children but he doesn't as he gave them free will. My life has no room for a good that stands by and let's that happen. If he was that powerful, he'd stop it.

What about natural disasters? OT speaks a lot about floods and plagues. What about when good Christians are wiped out by floods and earthquakes? Like the people who die when a church collapses on them. God's doing or does he just sit back and go "ah well"?

As Betty Bowers says " Praying to God for saving you from a tsunami when thousands of others died is like writing a thank you note to a serial killer for killing your neighbours but sparing you."
 

mudslag

macrumors regular
Oct 18, 2010
144
12,444
No religion treats Moses, Abraham as gods thousands of years after they existed. So I can safely say 2000 years from now no one will treat MLK, Ghandi etc as gods. Santa does not exist because its roots can be traced back to a beginning. the same goes for hobits because we absolutely know where it came from.

Santa doesn't exist because there is no evidence of a flying fat man that travels the world in a night giving out presents to everyone. Santa's roots play no part in the actual existence of Santa. God/s has roots, every god that has been labeled such has roots, though most are long forgotten.


BTW since it seems that we are arguing about the christian deity which you refer to in that 9/11 example. Then you misunderstand its descriptions in the bible. God there is neither "good" nor "evil".... God just IS. It refers to MAN as being good and evil in choices we make. IT also says man was given FREE will to do good or evil. And that choice has nothing to do with God existing or not.


Good and evil are man-made constructs. They are judgemental and subjective views based on positive or negative values of our interests. They are subjective in that what one groups views as good or evil does not equate the same view to another group. There is no good or evil in nature. If one is to accept that god created good and evil then it's fair to judge god on god's actions. The idea that god is neither good or evil is simply taking a null position on god's actions. It's turning a blind eye.
 

caesarp

macrumors 65816
Sep 30, 2012
1,078
619
No religion treats Moses, Abraham as gods thousands of years after they existed. So I can safely say 2000 years from now no one will treat MLK, Ghandi etc as gods. Santa does not exist because its roots can be traced back to a beginning. the same goes for hobits because we absolutely know where it came from.

BTW since it seems that we are arguing about the christian deity which you refer to in that 9/11 example. Then you misunderstand its descriptions in the bible. God there is neither "good" nor "evil".... God just IS. It refers to MAN as being good and evil in choices we make. IT also says man was given FREE will to do good or evil. And that choice has nothing to do with God existing or not.

I thought I would be given some scientific examples of no existence of a supreme intelligence. I know I would never get such proof in the positive from religious folks. But silly me, I thought those of you seemingly relegating religious people to those of lesser intelligence would be different.
sigh.

So you prove my point. You say Hobbits don't exist only because we know where they came from (i.e. a man named Tolkien wrote about them). But in your view, myths about "god", that probably began with an oral tradition in pre-history, so we don't know exactly where they came from, must be deemed to be true -- or we must have proof they are not true? That makes no sense. Not knowing the source of a story doesn't give it the imprimatur of truth -- just the opposite.

There is nothing that makes writings or stories about "god" any more factual than writing about Hobbitts. Creation and god stories were forms of entertainment in antiquity, just like books are now. Gods don't exist for the same reason that Hobbits don't exist. Just because you don't have the copyright for those who first made up stories about god doesn't change anything.

And you can't safely say what nutty people will do 2000 years from now. MLK had great ideas about peace and harmony and had many followers and a tight group of about 12 people around him running the SCLC (Jackson, Abernathy, Young, etc) , and he died a tragic death (a martyr one could say). How is that different than the story of jesus? Yes, we don't believe in zombies now, so we don't say MLK rose from the dead -- but who knows what some nutty cult will say 2000 years hence. So maybe there was a cool guy in jesus time, who didn't like oppression from the romans. He was a good orator and people were attracted to his ideas. He was killed and his followers or people after them made up stories -- like whisper down the lane. Mix with general superstition, illiteracy, fear, lack of science, and royal decrees and you have a religion.

And look at L. Ron Hubbard -- he spat BS in the 1950s and its a "religion" now. L. Ron Hubbard and scientology is your best example of probably why all religion is BS.

Is Odin true, is Apollo true, is Thor true? We are all atheists -- I just take it one more god than you do.
 

citizenzen

macrumors 68000
Mar 22, 2010
1,543
11,786
... God there is neither "good" nor "evil".... God just IS. It refers to MAN as being good and evil in choices we make. IT also says man was given FREE will to do good or evil. ...

If man was given free will to do good or evil, why was the Earth covered in a flood, killing every creature except for those on the Ark? Why was Soddom and Gommorah destroyed? Why wasn't God willing to allow man to make the free choice of good or evil in those instances? When did God switch his plan and allow for free will to be exercised by man?
 

caesarp

macrumors 65816
Sep 30, 2012
1,078
619
Then you misunderstand its descriptions in the bible. God there is neither "good" nor "evil".... God just IS. It refers to MAN as being good and evil in choices we make. IT also says man was given FREE will to do good or evil. And that choice has nothing to do with God existing or not.

God just is? So Hobbits just is. Elves just is. Thor just is. Batman just is.

Makes as much sense.

If we have free will to do good or evil and god doesn't intervene to stop evil or to cause good, than what's the point of god or worship or religion? As I said, its all a waste of time. God doesn't exist and/or god doesn't matter even IF it existed. Either way, god has no effect on our lives. Since apparently we do what we want.

And by the way, there is no god. Just deal with it.
 

Huntn

macrumors Core
May 5, 2008
23,549
26,666
The Misty Mountains
OK, let's take this back to it's roots. Man evolves (because Genesis never happened) and settles around the globe. With homosapiens ability to question and reason they start asking "why". Without microscopes and large hadron colliders and understanding fossils and stuff they come to the conclusion someone bigger and better must've done it. Some people say it was one god, others believe there was a different god for every facet of life. If god existed you would find existence of the same religion emerging independently across the globe. It is not and never has been spread by god - but by people and the only way religions become dominant is by domination. The church became the super power it is today not by the love and kindness of Jesus' teachings but by greed, corruption, violence, intimidation and fear.

If you argue that God was able to influence people to do that then he can influence paedophiles to not abuse children but he doesn't as he gave them free will. My life has no room for a good that stands by and let's that happen. If he was that powerful, he'd stop it.

What about natural disasters? OT speaks a lot about floods and plagues. What about when good Christians are wiped out by floods and earthquakes? Like the people who die when a church collapses on them. God's doing or does he just sit back and go "ah well"?

As Betty Bowers says " Praying to God for saving you from a tsunami when thousands of others died is like writing a thank you note to a serial killer for killing your neighbours but sparing you."

Devil's Advocate: Within the Christian dogma, there is too much human thought applied to this life, when your real existence and reward is in heaven.

If man was given free will to do good or evil, why was the Earth covered in a flood, killing every creature except for those on the Ark? Why was Soddom and Gommorah destroyed? Why wasn't God willing to allow man to make the free choice of good or evil in those instances? When did God switch his plan and allow for free will to be exercised by man?

Early fiction novelists hone their craft... ;)

Free will is both a blessing and a curse. Still, I prefer free will over no will. :cool:

How much free will do you think you have? When you make a choice, how much of that choice is intellectual versus traveling down the road that is who you are?
 

Praxis91

macrumors regular
Mar 15, 2011
104
887
Probably a combination. I have never thought about it much before. I think we all have the capacity to do good/evil, but a lot depends on how you are brought up (e.g. great parents + childhood).. but then again some real sickos come from the best upbringings and some great people come from the worst.
 

MagnusVonMagnum

macrumors 603
Jun 18, 2007
5,193
1,442
What I want to know is how Christians even got this idea from? It's not from Judaism, which sees sex for the purpose of pleasure as not only acceptable, but an obligation of a husband to his wife (With repeatedly denying her such pleasure being grounds for divorce).

They got it from the hypocritical Catholic Church that was preaching celibacy to the people while having orgies in the Vatican (nothing has really changed there according to the documentary I recently watched called "Secrets of the Vatican" that's available on Netflix except that the new Pope seems to actually want to change things but has his work cut out for him. You'd be SHOCKED to know how many priests live double lives in the Vatican and how many homosexuals there are at the top levels of an organization that professes them to be abominations. It's a pretty fascinating documentary.

Basically, sex has always been painted by the church to essentially be a necessary evil to procreate, dating back to the times of early Israel when one would become "defiled" (made unholy and dirty to God so that you are cast away from His sight) by simply having their menstrual cycle or touching a body fluid. Sex outside marriage is destructive to families and back then the human race might not even survive without having huge numbers of children (i.e. sad as our medical technology is today against simple bacteria, it was almost non-existent back then). Thus sex was not to be encouraged except to have children. Even so, it's obvious that multiple wives and concubines were allowed in Israel (Solomon being the epitome of sex crazed and manipulated as it were by women) and sex itself did not become this evil awful thing until large cities made it readily available through Prostitution at every street corner (not typically a problem out on farms in the wilderness). Sexually transmitted diseases became more and more common as a result and let's face it, any disease is interpreted by primitive people as being a punishment from God. Thus, sex began to be equated with demons and evil pleasure and associations don't break easily. The mythos of the Virgin Mary have stayed a virgin for all eternity after Christ was born further perpetuated the idea that celibacy was holy and God-like and sex was carnal and animal-like. The Catholic Church decided to go celibate and thus sex was a big NO NO for anyone wanting to be closer to God. Well, who wants to be far from God in a church? It took on even more negative connotations and those who cheated on their wives made it appear even more shameful, etc. Sex became a dirty, disease causing thing that the holy priests avoided entirely (well on the surface, it seems). Thus, I tend to think it is the Catholic Church that largely made sex something to be considered shameful while simultaneously forbidding birth control in the modern era leading to unwanted, unloved children or abortions that could have been prevented.

Most of this is new-age nonsense so ill ignore it. Regarding Jesus and homosexuality though: Jesus is God. God made nature. That pretty much says it all about homosexuality. You don't even need to be religious to see the truth there.

It's hard to see a point there given the utter fallacies you make. You point out that you don't have to be religious to see the truth in a statement that is predicated upon believing Jesus is God (something not all sects of Christianity believed, especially before the Catholic Church killed the opposition beliefs). Some believe Jesus is the SON of God (not God Himself) as Jesus supposedly only ever directly claimed and others (see Origin) believed he became God's adopted son by living a perfect life (these groups were proclaimed heretics in the 3rd century and largely murdered by the church). Other religions have different beliefs and of course, atheists don't believe in a god period so your point is lost on them as well.

Even so, you seem to be asserting that homosexuality is not present in nature and this is flat out false:

(http://www.yalescientific.org/2012/03/do-animals-exhibit-homosexuality/)
http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/so-it-turns-out-giraffes-are-gayest-animal-planet231014
http://listverse.com/2013/04/20/10-animals-that-practice-homosexuality/

Here's a thought: what is everyone were homosexual? if they are 'born that way' then its most definitely possible at some point right? So what if it happened? Would we search for a Cure or just call it a day as a species?

Keep in mind: I don't believe there is a cure for homosexuality as I think its an indulgence.

Saying it's an indulgence is saying that some people simply WANT to do it. Okay, what makes you want to eat a green bean but not eat broccoli? What makes one person like mustard and another person hate mustard? Do you CHOOSE whether you like mustard or not? Did you choose to like women or is it a natural attraction for you? You decided to be heterosexual one day? Do you see what I'm saying? Do you honestly believe homosexuals would CHOOSE to be something that leads to them being attacked, persecuted and even murdered by hateful bigots??? I'm sorry, but your assertion is ridiculous.

I used to know this one gay guy who would get younger dudes to come to his house and play straight porn to get them horny so he could try to take advantage of them. When I heard about it I thought "gee, if everyone is born a certain way how could he hope to convert any of them". Then I came to my senses and thought "oh, he's just a perv being a perv"

So there are no straight perverts out there? :rolleyes:

A penis doesn't belong in an anus. Simple and scientific enough for you?
Common sense has just gone out the window in this day and age.

From what I've read, one in four women would disagree with that statement and probably three out of four guys who like big butts and they cannot deny they get sprung.... I mean really, I suppose a penis doesn't belong in a mouth either but how many guys don't want to put it in their wife's (or girlfriend's) mouth at some point? You weren't born with shoes on your feet either but does that stop you from wearing them?

I don't understand why it's so difficult for some people to grasp the concept that some people are simply not aroused by the opposite sex through no fault of their own.

People tend to hate those who are or think different from themselves (the definition of bigotry, oddly enough). You see this on the playground even if one kid has red hair and the others don't. It doesn't take much. You are "different" from them and so you are "wrong".

So if they can say "God" agrees with their view on something they personally find disgusting, all the more reason to shove it in people's faces or worse, it seems. It never occurs to these people it might not be a choice. After all, they are attracted to the opposite sex, so how could someone not be without being some kind of a weirdo? Then the Bible steps in for them and assures them they are correct in Leviticus and God finds them to be "abominations" and their fate is sealed. It doesn't matter that it also says eating a ham sandwich is just as bad. They aren't looking to persecute ham sandwiches so they don't even know that line exists on the very next page (ignorant as they are).
 

Herdfan

macrumors 65816
Apr 11, 2011
1,127
7,634
I heard this comparison yesterday and it made me think.

Would a gay baker make a cake for the Westboro Baptist Church?
 

pdjudd

macrumors 601
Jun 19, 2007
4,037
65
Plymouth, MN
It wouldn’t be illegal if he said no - the WBC is not a protected group. That question was asked before. And why would the WBC cater to a gay business? If anything they would picket it.
 

MagnusVonMagnum

macrumors 603
Jun 18, 2007
5,193
1,442
A news update:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/04/2...reat-to-indiana-pizza-shop/?intcmp=latestnews

The tweater was female. :eek: I figured something that stupid had to have come from a guy.

What bothers me is how the people on Fox commenting all then move to spin the whole thing so that a channel like MS-NBC is now someone who would hire a criminal when I'm only aware of FOX "News" (and I use the word "news" pretty damn loosely) supporting liars and criminal behavior. Anyone on MS-NBC that has remotely said anything offensive has been canned in short order. Major shows have been axed on comments Fox would have supported until the end of time. But Fox tells these viewers that they're "fair and balanced" which is the biggest crock of horse crap of all time in and of itself. Yes, MSNBC is left, but Fox is so far to the right that they're on another planet by comparison. Bald faced liars like Bill O'Reilly get to lie day and night (claims about him being in war zones that are pure nonsense and the like not to mention religious books penned by ghost writers to try and tie the right to religion when 99% of them are nothing more than lip-service marriages of convenience).

Personally, I'd like UNBIASED news (or at least both sides equally represented in discussions), but I'm starting to think there is no such thing. "Moderate" has become an evil word. At this rate, we're getting division not seen since the Civil War, except that it's spread out over the whole country. Sadly, a house divided against itself cannot stand for long. If we don't start breaching divides, the US could be heading for major trouble.
 

bradl

macrumors 603
Jun 16, 2008
5,936
17,428
What bothers me is how the people on Fox commenting all then move to spin the whole thing so that a channel like MS-NBC is now someone who would hire a criminal when I'm only aware of FOX "News" (and I use the word "news" pretty damn loosely) supporting liars and criminal behavior. Anyone on MS-NBC that has remotely said anything offensive has been canned in short order. Major shows have been axed on comments Fox would have supported until the end of time. But Fox tells these viewers that they're "fair and balanced" which is the biggest crock of horse crap of all time in and of itself. Yes, MSNBC is left, but Fox is so far to the right that they're on another planet by comparison. Bald faced liars like Bill O'Reilly get to lie day and night (claims about him being in war zones that are pure nonsense and the like not to mention religious books penned by ghost writers to try and tie the right to religion when 99% of them are nothing more than lip-service marriages of convenience).

Personally, I'd like UNBIASED news (or at least both sides equally represented in discussions), but I'm starting to think there is no such thing. "Moderate" has become an evil word. At this rate, we're getting division not seen since the Civil War, except that it's spread out over the whole country. Sadly, a house divided against itself cannot stand for long. If we don't start breaching divides, the US could be heading for major trouble.

Have to agree with the bold. And when staunch Reds like Bob Dole and Trent Lott are coming out to their own parties and saying 'enough is enough', there is a problem.

BL.
 

caesarp

macrumors 65816
Sep 30, 2012
1,078
619

Herdfan

macrumors 65816
Apr 11, 2011
1,127
7,634
Another news update:

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/240154-supreme-court-tosses-obamacare-contraception-ruling

Looks like the court kicked another case back down based on the Hobby Lobby decision.

Reading this made me think about something. When the ACA was passed into law, the DHHS was tasked with writing the regulations. Which they did under the leadership of Kathleen Sebelius. She was the one who had the final say in whether or not a regulation was included and the wording of such regulation.

So let's suppose for a minute that she initially only included the 16 forms of contraception that would not be considered a "morning after" pill in the regulations of drugs to be included.

Would there have been the level of hate and vitriol directed at her that has been directed at the owner's of Hobby Lobby and those that support them? Sure there would have been a few, but I really can't see crowds of people protesting outside her office over them being not included.

Am I missing something here?
 

hulugu

macrumors 68000
Aug 13, 2003
1,834
16,455
quae tangit perit Trump
...So let's suppose for a minute that she initially only included the 16 forms of contraception that would not be considered a "morning after" pill in the regulations of drugs to be included.

Would there have been the level of hate and vitriol directed at her that has been directed at the owner's of Hobby Lobby and those that support them? Sure there would have been a few, but I really can't see crowds of people protesting outside her office over them being not included.

Am I missing something here?

First, I object to the idea that the opposition to the Hobby Lobby decision should be characterized as "hate and vitriol." While that's certainly apparent, my opposition is based on ethical and legal reasoning.

Second, we'd have to understand DHHS's reasoning. If Kathleen Sebelius had based this decision on medical and legal reasons, we'd have a very different conversation. However, what we got was a decision that carved out an ideological exception that, by consequence, pushes the religious feelings of Hobby Lobby executives on their employees.

You want to look at the end result, but the problem of the Hobby Lobby decision isn't just the limitation of certain kind of birth control, but the creation of a religious feelings exemption for "closely-held" companies.

The court promoted the ideology of corporate owners above the freedom of employees.
 

Herdfan

macrumors 65816
Apr 11, 2011
1,127
7,634
So you think that the objections to the Hobby Lobby case was about the court siding with the owners of the company based on religion.

Ok, fair enough. But why would the administration go to the extent it went to protecting these 4 morning after drugs while giving exemptions to the employer mandate to over 1200 companies encompassing over 500,000 unionized employees.

And yet no one on the left said boo.

So we restrict having the pay for 4 drugs (note it was only restricting the company having to pay for, not the employee from being able to get) for a few thousand employees for I agree is a religious reason, and it is horrible.

Yet, restricting companies having to pay for full heath care for the employees of over 1200 companies for largely political reasons is OK?
 

hulugu

macrumors 68000
Aug 13, 2003
1,834
16,455
quae tangit perit Trump
So you think that the objections to the Hobby Lobby case was about the court siding with the owners of the company based on religion.

Ok, fair enough. But why would the administration go to the extent it went to protecting these 4 morning after drugs while giving exemptions to the employer mandate to over 1200 companies encompassing over 500,000 unionized employees.

And yet no one on the left said boo.

So we restrict having the pay for 4 drugs (note it was only restricting the company having to pay for, not the employee from being able to get) for a few thousand employees for I agree is a religious reason, and it is horrible.

Yet, restricting companies having to pay for full heath care for the employees of over 1200 companies for largely political reasons is OK?

You're conflating two completely different ideas in an attempt to build an argument that the left is being hypocritical.

And, you're also wrong about the character and reasoning behind the waiver.

The waiver was for a single time-limted waiver for certain companies, including McDonalds (hardly a liberal standard), in order to bridge a gap in coverage from "mini-med" plans to the full standard of the ACA.

As the Washington Post noted:

...[Rep. Steve Scalise (R-La.)] use of the word “exempted” is much too expansive. He gives the impression that vast segments of politically connected “groups” have been excused from the health care law when in fact he is mostly referring to a one-year waiver that was intended to make the transition to the new system easier for people with bare-bones insurance.
 
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