D60, I take it you're not an English major. Whatever. USB might be the most common port used in computing, but for PRO applications, it sucks. Why do people defend usb, as a pro applicational tool. I, and many others are working with large and larger files in the field. So much so, that FW800, is starting to seem slow. The idea that, there will eventually be a usb adaptor to take over for the express card slot is a joke.
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Apple Releases New 15" MacBook Pro, Updates 17" MacBook Pro
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http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834220499
I can get a good laptop with a 2.66GHz Intel Core 2 Duo (with twice as much cache as a MBP), 4GB RAM, 320GB hard drive, a 1GB 9650M and a good 3 hours of battery life (plus more if you get another battery) for $1299 ($1199 after savings).
Apple doesn't need to be cheap, but it needs to be reasonable.
13 inch MBP
2.26GHz
4GB RAM
250GB Hard Drive
9400M + 9600M GT 256MB
$1199
15 inch MBP
2.53GHz
4GB RAM
320GB Hard Drive
9400M + 9600M GT 512MB
$1499
I can get a good laptop with a 2.66GHz Intel Core 2 Duo (with twice as much cache as a MBP), 4GB RAM, 320GB hard drive, a 1GB 9650M and a good 3 hours of battery life (plus more if you get another battery) for $1299 ($1199 after savings).
Apple doesn't need to be cheap, but it needs to be reasonable.
13 inch MBP
2.26GHz
4GB RAM
250GB Hard Drive
9400M + 9600M GT 256MB
$1199
15 inch MBP
2.53GHz
4GB RAM
320GB Hard Drive
9400M + 9600M GT 512MB
$1499
Jesus man, you can warn people of impending fuglyness by clicking your link, this is one fugly piece of hardware. So, go buy it, and all its "good" 3 hours of battery life....
....3 hours of battery life btw, can't be good under any circumstance....So, go buy that asus piece of crap with the fifty stickers on it, you probably deserve it.
If you'd read earlier posts you would see a list (or a couple of lists) of ExpressCard hardware that cannot be replaced by the options given on the current 15" model. I can think of two off of the top of my head relating to audio, that being RME interfaces, and Apogee interfaces (Apple being Apogees partner in their hardware, aimed mainly at the Pro user).
Here's the thing though, Apple has had for many years a solid and easy way to get those photos off of your camera, just stick a USB cable in and let iPhoto (or aperture) do the work. A solution that is a lot more intuitive than opening up your camera to remove the storage device, plug it into your computer, then stick it back in the camera.
But before this refresh those people who needed an SD card reader had at least two options, use a USB reader, or an expresscard reader. Replacing the ExpressCard slot with the SD reader has solved a problem that was never really there, and at the same time created an inconvenience for a great many users.
I hate to say it, but this refresh reminds me of how Apple used to purposefully cripple some of their hardware line for the upsell, and I'll give reference. The iBook G3 and G4, and iMac G4 used to use a GPU that could do dual display, but it was crippled to only mirror, so if a user needed dual displays they had no choice but to buy a PowerBook or PowerMac, fortunately there was a hack that got around this. They used to do the same with ethernet, they continued to use 10/100 ethernet on lower end systems, even though because of the ubiquity of gigabit ethernet, gigabit controllers were cheaper, this again to force the upsell to those users who needed a quicker network connection.
I was quite glad when they stopped creating artificial divisions in their product lines, but it seems as though these differentiators that they used to put in their product lines to upsell to customers is returning. They tried it with the uni MB with dropping firewire, trying to force users who wanted a semi decent GPU and firewire to buy the MBP, this must have failed though, and judging by the stir it caused it's not too surprising.
You would almost think that the hardware division is having their mandate too heavily influenced by the marketing and accounts, all so marketing can say "Most affordable MBP ever" whilst keeping accounts happy that with using lesser parts, or nixing parts, the bottom line isn't hurt. And with the great upsell, all those that used to rely on the 15" PowerBook or MBP will have to shell out a few more shekels on the 17".
Don't get me wrong, I'm still a huge fan os the OS and many of the apps that Apple release, and I still maintain that their OS and apps are superior and more intuitive than most of their rivals, but over the last year or so their hardware has been IMHO severely lacking in many ways, so much so that my last desktop I got was a self built (and stable) hackintosh. And from a hardware perspective they'll see less and less of my hard earned money the more that they release, in my eyes at least, sub par hardware that I find to be of lesser value than the asking price.
Jesus man, you can warn people of impending fuglyness by clicking your link, this is one fugly piece of hardware. So, go buy it, and all its "good" 3 hours of battery life....
So, go buy that asus piece of crap with the fifty stickers on it, you probably deserve it.
So basically you buy the MacBook Pro because it is beautiful, and not because of the specs? This sums up Apple the best - style over substance.
And that 3 hours turns into 10 with swappable battery/12-cell battery add on, still far cheaper than the MBP. It also has an esata port, HDMI port and an express card slot, so even though the MacBook Pro has "pro" in its name, this "fugly" computer is far more professional than anything Apple can dream of.
I'd rather have that powerful hardware with good battery life for a good price rather than Apple's overpriced hardware.
apple's spec are better, specs is the aluminum unibody construction, the multi touch trackpad, and the by far superior battery life. Specs is also OS X, that no matter how much you pay for you aint going to have legally on the pc side.
Your claimed specs being better is a slightly larger cashe and ram, big deal. For the price of the extra battery get some ram if/when you need it. Instead of buying the crap asus do yourself a favour and get a great machine with some good resale value too.
But like I said if you are still considering you probably do deserve the craptastic asus.
Your claimed specs being better is a slightly larger cashe and ram, big deal. For the price of the extra battery get some ram if/when you need it. Instead of buying the crap asus do yourself a favour and get a great machine with some good resale value too.
But like I said if you are still considering you probably do deserve the craptastic asus.
Here's a thought no-one seems to have put forward yet...
Why is Apple focusing everything on consumers, instead of the pro's? Isn't someone using their machine for profit more likely to buy more units, more often than a consumer due to heavier usage, wear and tear etc.
What world are folks operating out of. In the broad laptop market "consumer" laptops are all in the sub $1000 range. The average consumer laptop is down in the $700-900 range.
So the MBP coming out of the $2000 range into the $1999 range still leaves them priced where business/professionals will be the primary buyers.
Those who needed discrete graphics .... can still get at the same price now as then. The somewhat hypocritical thing here is that folks did want the lower price point. Instead of looking at what is available at the same price point 1,2 years ago they move down and complain. If that old price point would lead to a profitable pro business then that hasn't changed. Similarly the VRAM going down and the main RAM up. Which one speeds up more programs/activities? Also moving better screen panels, those are up/down in costs from before? Machine milling the cases ( folks think that is cheaper than the earlier stampings? )
If Apple simply made the cases slightly thicker and/or longer that would also lead to less space tradeoffs being made.
What is the haughty ring here in some places is that if you are a Doctor/Engineering/etc. (something other than those with an absolute requirement for an ExpressCard solution) you are somehow not a professional.
Even more strange is that "professional" means having some doo-dad that you don't need/use on your tools. Having options is only material if those options are materially used. If anything adding widgets and spiffy things to give the air of being "power" is far more a consumer/marketing trick than evidence of truly, finely crafted, professional tools.
If Apple provided the options and pragmatically a very minor amount of professionals are using them are they really providing utility? This notion of potential utility ... what leads to potential profits?
If Apple was focusing on the vast consumer market they'd do something with the MacBook ( sub $1000 ) units.
If wear and tear is a problem then wouldn't someone need a unibody case? Most of the rest of the components don't move.... so where is this wear and tear whether a consumer or pro? If you are pro, you may buy a more "solid" machine so don't have to replace, so the replace rate isn't necessarily faster.
What Apple is in part doing with the MBP pricing move is try to keep up in volume with past years. Also wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft wasn't running ads in those other countries kicking Apple in the shins on price. No competition means you get higher prices. This is surprising? Go complain to Microsoft as to why they aren't stimulating the ad companies and providers in your country with more stimulus revenue? ;-)
Also I think it is partially coupled to the consumer products in that Apple has new products. If the Mac Division doesn't show growth, then they are going to be in trouble relative to the rest of the company.
If the Mac Division can't compete as a top 5 vendor wouldn't take Jobs long to slip right back into that mode. (in part I think he was being snippet because he was still out at that point.) Apple doesn't have to be the #1 or #2 vendor. However, settling for 2% (or less) of the market and focusing on users that are small fractions of that subset? That is a path to being snuffed out.
Too small and Apple will not have leverage with their parts suppliers, nor manufacturing contractors to get the pricing they need. If Apple actually made computers they might be able to pull off these relatively low number production run products that folks are clamoring for. That is how it is done by large vendors in the Windows/x86 side of the business.
The reason why I asked is because I hoped that would help me and other gage what the size of the market is that Apple is impacting. I wasn't trying to assert that nobody was using ECard, but the question of whether it has impact lobbying Apple is going to be whether there are numbers to support it.
If Apogees has 90K customers using their interfaces on MBP 15" then they might be doing a poor job of communicating that to Apple. If Apple and Apogees are really deep partners, I suspect somebody in Apple knows how many units that they are selling.
It is not whether the products that plug in exists. It is that they are being sold in numbers significantly relative to MBP numbers. If the MBP moves higher in volume and the ECard products stay flat year over year. Those products are in trouble. The companies selling them may be doing OK. They can be set up to do well off of very low run rates. Apple isn't.
Don't understand why SD have to mean camera (unless folks are completely fixated on the Apple webpage. No way, no how a single example/picture is going to map out the number of possible uses). With DRM free music, could I put that on a mini-SD card and insert that into my phone. Or is iTunes going to start synching with other folks phones? How much do you want to bet that there are far more phones that don't automagically move music to their phone with Apple software then there are number of Apogees/RMI devices ? [ Sure those folks could buy an external usb solution, but the competition doesn't make them have to buy that. It apple swaps one person who is tweaked because they have to buy a external reader who no buys for the person lost because the 17" is non option, they take no hit. ]
iPhoto auto syches with my digital picture frame?
The objective is to find a slot that folks are going to use in significant numbers. If 2% of users would use the SD slot (and would not have a need for an external USB solution if had this just one solution) and only 0.9% of users used the ExpressCard slot ... why would you keep the latter?
ExpressCard had its turn at the plate. Did not put the bat on the ball according to the stats that Apple collected and is being set back to the dugout. If the marketing folks have a list of most requested built-in slots that didn't exist yet and SD was at the top of that list then this would be the reasonable next choice to give a shot at that scarce real estate space on the side.
If folks manage to lead Apple to better data, great you have a good chance of getting it back. However, just because ExpressCard is potentially more flexible doesn't mean the number of users is going to amount to a larger number than SD. It also has a variety of uses beyond one device. There multimillions of devices that have SD cards in them. Even if a very small percentage of them require this user card swapping would still swamp the ECard crowd.
Exactly because there are options to use ExpressCard or not ( for USB like solutions) helps to keep the number of users of the slot small. Again further support for Apple's sub 1% number.
This presumes that "great many" is actually true relative to the number of MBP sold and expected to be sold in the future.
It is only crippled if there are a significant number of folks using it.
But yes, Apple does herd folks toward higher hardware. A more recent example in the "Pro" space is the single processor towers which are relatively high priced and boxed so that go higher if seriously need memory but not more cores.
All vendors do that though to some degree or another.
I don't think so. That may have be one of those where the marketing folks didn't stand up to Jobs and tell him his is offbase. His rationale throw out ( which I think is somewhere on this site) was that all the modern, non-pro cameras were using USB connections. That is most true for new cameras. However, if look at the vast body of cameras that folks actually own now firewire is still a very large player.
This is the opposite motivation. Apple put a slot out there and folks are not using it. The deployed external devices are not in large numbers. If there were out there in very large numbers folks would be using the slot more. They aren't because the devices quoted by folks so far are are sold in relatively smaller numbers.
That's why I was looking for someone to mention a product that seemed like it might be sold in 90K (or so ) sized amounts of units per year.
First I'd like to say that you can't compare these things on just prices because all of Apple's computers are overpriced for their market. So the consumer notebook is still the MB, regardless of what price that comes in at.
But this has nothing to do with the consumer market. The MBP is supposed to be their pro machine. Now the Express card issue, I don't really care about. I have zero use for the SD card slot so I might as well have the most versatile port out of the 2. But if you look at where the MBP has come from since the unibody change, its features have shifted towards more an average consumer starting with the display.
The professional market is very broad in your terms. But when you look at Apple as a company, and the software they make, it seems pretty clear what part of your professional market they are targeting. And their hardware is becoming less and less helpful for the software they are promoting.
I am progressively becoming less interested in what Apple is doing anymore.
not only style, but quality of build and quality of service - and lots more.
while the battery thing is a bit off-putting, the fact that it is a 7/8hr battery "stock" is amazing and a good market move by apple, people will be all over it! especialy the lower end consumers, travellers and whatnot.
its not really that much more powerful but apple is apple, they do what they do, you always have other options and if your happy with that then fine.
i would never buy something like that quite frankly tbh, it has ports everywhere (an esata on the front, wth? great for typing with (Y)) looks very fragile and brittle, and i doubt it would last the amount of time my MBP has lasted without conking out.
each to his own i guess.
Not sure if it is Apple or the "status seekers" that Apple attracts. Apple style does put constraints the solutions provided that other folks don't place upon themselves. However, not substance. It is really where the priority for the substances comes from. Sometimes with Apple it is what Apple thinks is best. Often right, but sometime they are wrong. Especially when get a bit to detached from reality ( we are successful so we deserve higher margins.) or misstime technology shifts. ( drop something without a replacement where there is demand.)
That said that ASUS is cheaper because it has cheaper components. In a quick scan, the screen is of lower quality and the RAM is just DDR2. Most likely isn't as "green" either. It probably helps ASUS that they make computers. If that is all you need that's great. However, putting together computers for mass market is all about making a set tradeoffs on multiple dimensions. Apple chose some and this vendor chose others.
And one reason the eSATA port is on the front ( a rather old place to put it ) is that sucked up gobs of space with multiformat reader. Making no design tradeoffs ( put slots all the way around) isn't substance either.
But who does that in large numbers? And if going to sink pounds into extra batteries a plate that the laptop sits on
that plugs into the power port tend to stretch out the hours better anyway. [ If want to knock Apple for something
would be not getting better alternative MagSafe options out there. ]
My feature list is much longer than yours. Whose style over substance now? Length of feature list is not a material agrument in the applicability of a tool. Does the tool meet your needs with value. yes/no. That is when you are into substance.
Mac's aren't what they used to be
My Penryn Pro and I had a great time, until I opened it one day to a pixelated mess. Applecare came through, but advised me I could only replace my baby with one of the new unibody models. Having demoed them in the store, I new I couldn't stand the glassy screen. But they were faster, newer, and the unibody case did turn out to be pretty damn sturdy.
After getting a matte screen cover once it arrived, I still was dissatisfied with the replacement. The battery life was worse no matter how I played with the settings, and it ran hotter with the dedicated graphics on than my last gen.
Plus, there was the damn trackpad. The glassy finish was nice, but no matter how I adjusted the settings the trackpad sucked. Missed clicks, jumped around the screen, and when it did click it was as loud and annoying as a kid crying in a supermarket.
So, once again, I called Apple to send me a new one. Turns out they could only send me one of the updated pro's. That's right, no expresscard and still no matte screen. And then it dawned on me. I asked for a REFURB penryn instead. To my surprise, my representative obliged and I got it overnight.
I know many will ask me why am crazy; settling for a refurbished, outdated, and slower computer when I could have gotten one of the brand spanking new Macbook pro's released on Tuesday. Well, here's my answer:
Remember when Mac's weren't trendy? Remember when Macbook Pro's (and Powerbooks) were made for professionals. Heck, they were built, performed, and acted like a professional computer.
Now Apple has gone consumer; still not cheap, and robbing 15" professionals of many features they desire in a professional laptop. It's great they are making money, but come on: at least include an expresscard and a matte screen on the high end 15". Enough is enough.
I hope that my refurb old Pro will last me a long time. And when it does die, Apple had better have gotten their act together. Either that or a new company better step up and pick up where Apple left off.
My Penryn Pro and I had a great time, until I opened it one day to a pixelated mess. Applecare came through, but advised me I could only replace my baby with one of the new unibody models. Having demoed them in the store, I new I couldn't stand the glassy screen. But they were faster, newer, and the unibody case did turn out to be pretty damn sturdy.
After getting a matte screen cover once it arrived, I still was dissatisfied with the replacement. The battery life was worse no matter how I played with the settings, and it ran hotter with the dedicated graphics on than my last gen.
Plus, there was the damn trackpad. The glassy finish was nice, but no matter how I adjusted the settings the trackpad sucked. Missed clicks, jumped around the screen, and when it did click it was as loud and annoying as a kid crying in a supermarket.
So, once again, I called Apple to send me a new one. Turns out they could only send me one of the updated pro's. That's right, no expresscard and still no matte screen. And then it dawned on me. I asked for a REFURB penryn instead. To my surprise, my representative obliged and I got it overnight.
I know many will ask me why am crazy; settling for a refurbished, outdated, and slower computer when I could have gotten one of the brand spanking new Macbook pro's released on Tuesday. Well, here's my answer:
Remember when Mac's weren't trendy? Remember when Macbook Pro's (and Powerbooks) were made for professionals. Heck, they were built, performed, and acted like a professional computer.
Now Apple has gone consumer; still not cheap, and robbing 15" professionals of many features they desire in a professional laptop. It's great they are making money, but come on: at least include an expresscard and a matte screen on the high end 15". Enough is enough.
I hope that my refurb old Pro will last me a long time. And when it does die, Apple had better have gotten their act together. Either that or a new company better step up and pick up where Apple left off.
You make a lot of great points here.
As an owner of a 2006 MBP 15", I hardly ever use the ExpressCard slot, so the replacement of it with the SD card reader is not bad. Plus, the SD card reader is rated pretty high for data transfer rates for faster cards to take advantage of.
The built in battery spooks me a bit, too, since the majority of my problems with my MBP have been with my battery, which has been replaced 4 times in 3 years.
I've gotten used to the matte finish, and wonder why it's not an option on the 15" models. But I guess I could get used to the glossy screen, as all of my friends have.
I will most likely get the $2299 MBP when I upgrade in October, due to the larger hard drive and 512Mb 9400/9600 graphic processors.
The nice part is that all of these now come with 4gb of RAM. That's something I can use now, but will gladly wait knowing I can use it later with the new model.
Couple of interesting tidbits from the blogosphere
http://www.gizmag.com/macbook-pro-firewire-but-no-expresscard/11942/
http://createdigitalmotion.com/2009/06/08/apple-restores-firewire-but-expresscard-now-only-on-17/
And news of expresscard 2.0 with much quicker bandwidth
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/06/expresscard-20-will-be-ten-times-faster/
Also of note is that on the Apple support boards there seems to be threads vanishing that question the loss of the expresscard slot, in a similar manner to threads that disappeared when they nixed firewire last year.
http://www.gizmag.com/macbook-pro-firewire-but-no-expresscard/11942/
http://createdigitalmotion.com/2009/06/08/apple-restores-firewire-but-expresscard-now-only-on-17/
And news of expresscard 2.0 with much quicker bandwidth
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/06/expresscard-20-will-be-ten-times-faster/
Also of note is that on the Apple support boards there seems to be threads vanishing that question the loss of the expresscard slot, in a similar manner to threads that disappeared when they nixed firewire last year.
Instead of starting a new thread i thought i could just post here. On the previous MBP the user could upgrade the HDD and RAM easily. Is this still true on the new MBP (15")
I don't know that the HDD was easily replaceable on any model - but on the new one both the HDD and Battery are not easily replaceable.
I'm enjoying it
I have the macbook Pro 15" 2.8... The one that was just realesed. I think it's an awsome computer. I couldn't be happier. It's fast and i underestimated the glass screen. In my room it looks PERFECT. I have zero problems. And it's cool using the laptops for hours and seeing "4 hours and 47 minutes left' ... that's a HUGE NICE!!!!!
My fiancé purchased the previous mbp 15" unibody with 2.66 512 Graphics card (2499). She LOVES it.
We both come from macbook pro penryn. I couldn't be happier. Sure i had a camcorder that worked on firewire 400, but i mean, it also took miniDV tapes. Which is not a bad thing, but i'm more interested in HD cameras so i'll be shopping soon enough.
I have the macbook Pro 15" 2.8... The one that was just realesed. I think it's an awsome computer. I couldn't be happier. It's fast and i underestimated the glass screen. In my room it looks PERFECT. I have zero problems. And it's cool using the laptops for hours and seeing "4 hours and 47 minutes left' ... that's a HUGE NICE!!!!!
My fiancé purchased the previous mbp 15" unibody with 2.66 512 Graphics card (2499). She LOVES it.
We both come from macbook pro penryn. I couldn't be happier. Sure i had a camcorder that worked on firewire 400, but i mean, it also took miniDV tapes. Which is not a bad thing, but i'm more interested in HD cameras so i'll be shopping soon enough.