Apple Seeds Mac OS X 10.5.2 and Java SE 6 Preview 8 for Leopard

[mdriftmeyer]

I understand that some people / corporations use it. My wife's office has a lot of remote stuff that done through websites and they also set up lots of web applications.

My main point, is that people who work in those environments and need those web applications usually have Windows machines (because that's what the corporations supply their employees for use). My wife's office won't even permit us to use Macs to access the information remotely or to remotely log-in to their server (even though the software to do so is available for free). They just will not support it, and provide pre-configured installers to run on the PC's (with hidden settings), so that we cannot obtain the information needed to manually setup a computer to log-in.

So, since they won't provide the settings, and they only provide Windows installers to configure the PC's, you can't use a Mac even though the software is available for the Mac (and for free) to get into the system.

Everything they do is with web apps. So, I'm aware of it's use in the business world. But, since many corporations mandate using computers they supply to perform business tasks, that takes a pretty good chunk out of the potential users.

The main point being, that your average web user isn't going to miss or notice the lack of Java support. I go all over the web, and really can't recall the last time a Java applet loaded.

The Key being Enterprise. Fortune 1000 [1-1000] use Java and write very large applications suites which are a combination of AppServer/Server-side and AWT/Swing Client-side apps that are often custom KIOSK apps that hit data records requiring hundreds of millions of rows and more.

Apple needs to make a coherent strategy that is consistent with the rest of the Industry.

It has taken 10 years to shed the ilk that was Carbon/Classic. That is actually 8 years longer than originally planned and it was only last WWDC they made it clear by killing off Carbon64 to make the switch.

Apple finally realizes it can be competitive in their first class Cocoa environment and creating compelling applications for consumers to use and be productive, without having to cower to Adobe and Microsoft.

However, there is no point in investing in Java if you're not going to make an intriguing platform for development/deployment running Java in the Enterprise.

Cocoa/ObjC WebObjects when it was in its true roots was an incredibly powerful and scalable development system.

With the advent of various other RAD tools it's clear that Java isn't the only game in town.

Make your minds up Apple and make the solution a compelling, robust and extensible one.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

I preface this as a leopard user, but it amazes me the # of updates and features that have had to be fixed before its right. IMHO, Apple rushed this out and should've gotten everything fixed before release.

I know nothing of your Operating Systems background, but get used to all software products being compromises at release.

There is no panacea solution before release.

 

[Jim Campbell]

Good for you, however if you've been through that I think its probably time to shell out $50 for a router, which is what most people use to connect to the internet so you are much less likely to have problems .

What kind of crack are you smoking? Are you seriously suggesting that I should have to buy a router to replace a £500+ computer that's supposed to be able to do this?

Cheeses.

Jim

 

[yetanotherdave]

What kind of crack are you smoking? Are you seriously suggesting that I should have to buy a router to replace a £500+ computer that's supposed to be able to do this?

Cheeses.

Jim

You only seem to have mentioned .8 .9 and .10, I thought .11 fixed the wireless issues you are talking about? You have tried it haven't you? If not I tend to find that all software and hardware issues are fixed by creating 36 different user accounts, one for office docs, one for internet, one for email, one for installing stuff, one for games, one for modifying stuff..

 

[Jim Campbell]

You only seem to have mentioned .8 .9 and .10, I thought .11 fixed the wireless issues you are talking about? You have tried it haven't you?

Sorry ... forgot about 10.4.11 - installed it, rebooted, and my wifi internet immediately died. Uninstalled it straight away. It was on my machine for about 5 minutes, which is why I forgot about it.

I also installed the Airport Extreme update 2007-004 which fixed this issue for a lot of people, and that didn't work, either!

Cheers

Jim

 

[Stella]

Sorry, I've lost what your point was!

I understand that some people / corporations use it. My wife's office has a lot of remote stuff that done through websites and they also set up lots of web applications.

A web application is platform independent and never fires up the client's JVM. The user has no idea that Java is being used on the server.

My main point, is that people who work in those environments and need those web applications usually have Windows machines (because that's what the corporations supply their employees for use). My wife's office won't even permit us to use Macs to access the information remotely or to remotely log-in to their server (even though the software to do so is available for free). They just will not support it, and provide pre-configured installers to run on the PC's (with hidden settings), so that we cannot obtain the information needed to manually setup a computer to log-in.

Java applets are rarely used these days.

The main point being, that your average web user isn't going to miss or notice the lack of Java support. I go all over the web, and really can't recall the last time a Java applet loaded.

SJ once stated that he wanted OSX to be the best Java development platform.

There is absolutely no reason why Apple should retire Java on OSX or give it even less attention that present. *You* may not need Java but there's plenty of other people that do. OSX without Java will damage Macs in the workplace, users and its reputation.

 

[MrCrowbar]

English is my first language, and it isn't in my dictionary... because it isn't a word. I've never heard someone have the balls to say replicateable out loud. I'd gladly correct them if I did. His suggestion that it is ok to use because "who uses replicable" is one of the more laughable (laughingable?) things I've seen on MacRumors forums... and that's really saying something.

I think I have a report by an apple genius where it says "replicatable". I'll post it when I find it

 

[Eraserhead]

What kind of crack are you smoking? Are you seriously suggesting that I should have to buy a router to replace a £500+ computer that's supposed to be able to do this?

Yep. If only 1% of people connect to the internet in the way you do, then Apple probably doesn't consider the risk of screwing something else up worth fixing this bug.

Of course the more information they have about the bug, the less likely damage to other components if they fix it.

 

[kaiwai]

Good for you, however if you've been through that I think its probably time to shell out $50 for a router, which is what most people use to connect to the internet so you are much less likely to have problems .

Dear god, stop trying to turn a computer into a router; what next, a home made router constructed out of an old PCMCIA card and 1/2 dozen coat hangers arranged in a star like patter for maximum reception?

 

[Jim Campbell]

Dear god, stop trying to turn a computer into a router; what next, a home made router constructed out of an old PCMCIA card and 1/2 dozen coat hangers arranged in a star like patter for maximum reception?

The problem isn't with the Mini - the iMac picks up wireless internet just fine from the Mini.

It's the MacBook - and 30 seconds on Apple's own forums shows that there are plenty of people whose wifi is FUBARed on their MacBooks with any update from 10.4.9 or 10.4.10 onwards. If I have anything other than the version of OSX the MacBook shipped with installed, then wifi is useless - not just at home, but in hotspots as well.

I would have no problem with sticking at 10.4.8 if it wasn't for the fact that .Mac now doesn't work properly with anything before 10.4.10, meaning that the machine I specifically bought so that I could work away from home can't properly access my e-mail, or iDisk.

I bought the machine for a specific purpose and subscribed to .Mac to support that purpose, and Apple's own software has removed that functionality.

If I wanted a laptop that didn't just work, then I could have saved several hundred quid and bought a bargain basement Windows job. I paid the "Apple Tax" willingly to avoid precisely the situation I am now in.

If that makes me a whiner, so be it.

Cheers

Jim

 

[JFreak]

It has taken 10 years to shed the ilk that was Carbon/Classic. That is actually 8 years longer than originally planned and it was only last WWDC they made it clear by killing off Carbon64 to make the switch.

Backwards compatibility, anyone? Seriously, Apple has done good. It has supported the deadend Carbon/Classic and at the same time encouraged develpers to move on to the next one. That 8 years is more than anyone can ask for, IMO.

 

[kingtj]

PowerPC Macs and Java, etc.

Even IF you could prove that statistic, it would mean that you're counting all the people who are still hanging on to their really OLD Macs ... puttering along with the original MacOS on a Performa and whatnot.

The fact is, if you want to develop modern software for Macs, you really have no business not investing in the current architecture. (I know, some "financially strapped freeware developer" is going to get all bent out of shape at my statement. But too bad... I'm talking about people coding for a profit here, ok?)

I mean, if you sell your PowerMac G5 or iMac G5 you write code on now, you'll still get a decent return on your money to put towards a new iMac or Mac Pro. And even if that means coming up with another $1000-1500 or whatever, that should be an expense you can write-off on your federal taxes as a business expense.

I understand that Java development insulates you from the whole "Universal binary" dilemma (no need to have an Intel based system to test how your UB code runs on said processor type. Even so, I would think a developer would want to use a machine running the architecture Apple has moved ALL of their products to now? The performance is clearly better, and time is money when waiting on your code to compile/recompile.

Show me statistics that 90% of Macs are PowerPC's. Until then, whatever.

Then go slap "Apple" in the face. See if they care.

 

[kaiwai]

(Aside: Can I ask the mods why it's OK for someone to address me like this, but when I get mildly irritated, my post gets edited?)

The problem isn't with the Mini - the iMac picks up wireless internet just fine from the Mini.

It's the MacBook - and 30 seconds on Apple's own forums shows that there are plenty of people whose wifi is FUBARed on their MacBooks with any update from 10.4.9 or 10.4.10 onwards. If I have anything other than the version of OSX the MacBook shipped with installed, then wifi is useless - not just at home, but in hotspots as well.

I would have no problem with sticking at 10.4.8 if it wasn't for the fact that .Mac now doesn't work properly with anything before 10.4.10, meaning that the machine I specifically bought so that I could work away from home can't properly access my e-mail, or iDisk.

I bought the machine for a specific purpose and subscribed to .Mac to support that purpose, and Apple's own software has removed that functionality.

If I wanted a laptop that didn't just work, then I could have saved several hundred quid and bought a bargain basement Windows job. I paid the "Apple Tax" willingly to avoid precisely the situation I am now in.

If that makes me a whiner, so be it.

Cheers

Jim

Hang on, you setup the machine in a way it was never intended to run and now you complain when things break? am I the only one seeing that the problem isn't in Apple's corner? Why you also spent NZ$1000 on a computer when a NZ$100 router could have done the job - God only knows (and I think even he is confused about the situation).

 

[Jim Campbell]

Hang on, you setup the machine in a way it was never intended to run and now you complain when things break? am I the only one seeing that the problem isn't in Apple's corner? Why you also spent NZ$1000 on a computer when a NZ$100 router could have done the job - God only knows (and I think even he is confused about the situation).

What in God's name are you talking about? I bought the Mini first as a media centre and it's connected directly to the cable modem by ethernet.

I then subsequently bought a MacBook and an iMac (to replace my venerable G4 tower) and enabled the "Share Internet Connection" option in Airport on the Mini so that the other machines could access the internet from different rooms in the house ... how is this using the machine in a way that Apple did not intend?

This set-up worked just fine until I installed a system update when prompted to by Apple which completely borked the Airport on the MacBook, and nothing Apple has done since has rectified it. Again, I should point out that Apple's own discussion forums are not short of people in the same situation.

In what way is it unreasonable to expect my laptop's wifi to work with Apple-issued software? As I said, it doesn't work in wifi hotspots either if I upgrade the OS.

I don't understand this eagerness to blame me for the failure of a system that only occurred when I installed Apple's own system update and which they have entirely failed to fix over the course of the last six months.

In addition, they have exacerbated the situation by making .Mac only fully compatible with 10.4.10 onwards, so I can either have functioning wifi or full .Mac access but not both. Not that .Mac access is worth a damn if I can't actually sustain a wifi connection long enough to use it.

All I originally said was that I hoped that the vague references to 10.5.2 fixing "Airport issues" finally addresses this problem, notwithstanding the fact that I'm going to have to buy an OS upgrade for no reason other than to get Airport and .Mac working again.

I'm starting to see why some Mac fans have a bad name in some parts of the interweb, given the haste that there has been to heap opprobium on me, a former Mac professional, and a Mac user for fifteen years, for having the audacity to suggest that Apple has not served me well on this occasion.

Cheers

Jim

 

[cb1016]

what's the show stopper?

Sorry, but what Java 6 things must you absolutely have? Not an attack, but a sincere question. I'm developing a Java web app right now on my mac. I don't understand the comment "I can't do Java development on a mac without Java 6." Please enlighten me? I'm not saying having Java 6 would be bad, I'm just wondering why not having it is a "show stopper".

FIPS 140-2 compliant crypto via NSS in the Java 6 PKCS #11 implementation.

 

[72930]

AWESOME!!! Does it look like Tiger if the box is unticked? Rounded corners and all...

 

[emotion]

Quite cool, though this is already in the OS just not via a menu:

In terminal:

sudo defaults write /System/Library/LaunchDaemons/com.apple.WindowServer 'EnvironmentVariables' -dict 'CI_NO_BACKGROUND_IMAGE' 1

From http://www.usingmac.com/2007/11/18/leopard-tweaking-terminal-codes

 

[72930]

My grandad has bad vision and there's something I'm really hoping for in 10.5.2, the ability to enlarge the text in Finder's Sidebar (like you can in iTunes, Mail, iPhoto etc.), any word on this?

 

[kaiwai]

What in God's name are you talking about? I bought the Mini first as a media centre and it's connected directly to the cable modem by ethernet.

I then subsequently bought a MacBook and an iMac (to replace my venerable G4 tower) and enabled the "Share Internet Connection" option in Airport on the Mini so that the other machines could access the internet from different rooms in the house ... how is this using the machine in a way that Apple did not intend?

This set-up worked just fine until I installed a system update when prompted to by Apple which completely borked the Airport on the MacBook, and nothing Apple has done since has rectified it. Again, I should point out that Apple's own discussion forums are not short of people in the same situation.

In what way is it unreasonable to expect my laptop's wifi to work with Apple-issued software? As I said, it doesn't work in wifi hotspots either if I upgrade the OS.

I don't understand this eagerness to blame me for the failure of a system that only occurred when I installed Apple's own system update and which they have entirely failed to fix over the course of the last six months.

In addition, they have exacerbated the situation by making .Mac only fully compatible with 10.4.10 onwards, so I can either have functioning wifi or full .Mac access but not both. Not that .Mac access is worth a damn if I can't actually sustain a wifi connection long enough to use it.

All I originally said was that I hoped that the vague references to 10.5.2 fixing "Airport issues" finally addresses this problem, notwithstanding the fact that I'm going to have to buy an OS upgrade for no reason other than to get Airport and .Mac working again.

I'm starting to see why some Mac fans have a bad name in some parts of the interweb, given the haste that there has been to heap opprobium on me, a former Mac professional, and a Mac user for fifteen years, for having the audacity to suggest that Apple has not served me well on this occasion.

Cheers

Jim

No, its the fact that you go out and use a piece of hardware NEVER designed to do what you're attempting; it is NOT up to Apple to address issues which occur in products being used in a way which it was NEVER intended.

Their focus is on the 99% of people who use the computers in the way Apple expected. You expect Apple to ring up little old you and ask, "now, what weird and wonderful way around you using your machine - because perish if we break something only 1% actually use!".

 

[Jim Campbell]

No, its the fact that you go out and use a piece of hardware NEVER designed to do what you're attempting; it is NOT up to Apple to address issues which occur in products being used in a way which it was NEVER intended.

Reading comprehension not so good with you? What part of the problem is not with the Mini, it's with the MacBook are you struggling with*?

The fact remains that an Apple-supplied system update broke the wifi on MacBook - not just at home but, as I stated before, when I try to access wifi hotspots, which clearly demonstrates that the problem is not with the set-up of my home network.

10.4.10 doesn't fix this issue, 10.4.11 doesn't fix this issue, neither, apparently, does 10.5.0 or 10.5.1. All I said was that I hoped 10.5.2 does fix the problem because I'm presently forced to stick with 10.4.8.

Again, as I stated before, even this wouldn't be a problem were it not for the fact that Apple knew this issue existed and went ahead and changed the .Mac service so it only works properly with 10.4.10 or higher, meaning that I am now paying for a service I can't access away from home which somewhat defeats the point of it.

You're clearly trolling at this point, so I'm going to hope that I have explained the issue, and the reason for my disappointment with Apple on this occasion, in words of as few syllables as possible and leave it at that.

Cheers

Jim

* Leaving aside the part where I'm confused as to how enabling an Apple-created option in the Sharing Preferences constitutes using the machine in a way that Apple didn't intend.

 

[rbhudelson]

Reading comprehension not so good with you? What part of the problem is not with the Mini, it's with the MacBook are you struggling with*?

The fact remains that an Apple-supplied system update broke the wifi on MacBook - not just at home but, as I stated before, when I try to access wifi hotspots, which clearly demonstrates that the problem is not with the set-up of my home network.

10.4.10 doesn't fix this issue, 10.4.11 doesn't fix this issue, neither, apparently, does 10.5.0 or 10.5.1. All I said was that I hoped 10.5.2 does fix the problem because I'm presently forced to stick with 10.4.8.

Again, as I stated before, even this wouldn't be a problem were it not for the fact that Apple knew this issue existed and went ahead and changed the .Mac service so it only works properly with 10.4.10 or higher, meaning that I am now paying for a service I can't access away from home which somewhat defeats the point of it.

You're clearly trolling at this point, so I'm going to hope that I have explained the issue, and the reason for my disappointment with Apple on this occasion, in words of as few syllables as possible and leave it at that.

Cheers

Jim

* Leaving aside the part where I'm confused as to how enabling an Apple-created option in the Sharing Preferences constitutes using the machine in a way that Apple didn't intend.

Jim, not sure why folks are giving you a hard time about this. I'm assuming you have worked your way through Apple Care. I don't see anything that you are trying to do that shouldn't be working. I have moved all my machines over to leopard or I would try to duplicate what you are seeing. There have been issues of upgrading in place from certain versions of OS X to Leopard that will kill the wifi until you delete a file. This doesn't appear to be your issue. I would escalate inside AppleCare and they will take care of the problem.

Brad

 

[Kar98]

Two bugs stand out to me.....

1. Major one is Wifi drops in and out often for no reason. Really frustrating! When I look at the meter it says "scanning..."

2. This is small but I don't get the sound when I receive new mail. I get the indicator but no sound. Have no idea why. Perhaps I am the only one.

Absolutely not. Sometimes it pings, most often it doesn't. And the "can't browse any other computers on my network" bug is irritating as hell. Here it is almost 2008 and I am reverting to the good ole sneaker network!

 

[BlackSmp]

Wait a minute! Tell me, my eyes are not O.K.


NEVER ONLY USE ONE ACCOUNT ON A COMPUTER!

This applies to all OSes, be it Unix, Linux, Windows or Mac OS X. If you are really surfing the Web with an Admin account, then you are asking for serious trouble (all the security marketing hype aside).

Well, I've been surfing on the Web using XP for ages without trouble..

However, even if it is sound practice not to use a admin account, the installation should work with one account only and if it doesn't something is wrong.

--j

 

[Inconsequential]

I've read page 1 and 8 and its just people moaning.

Leopard has been fine for me, the only ONLY problem is the sleep one, THATS IT!

Otherwise it hasn't crashed, locked or done anything untoward.

I've had 10.1, 10.2, 10.3 and 10.4 from launch and they have all been perfect.

So I dunno what you lot are moaning about, incompatible software causing these problems perhaps? Hmmmmmmm?
=

 

[DiamondMac]

So I dunno what you lot are moaning about, incompatible software causing these problems perhaps? Hmmmmmmm?
=

Not at all. Just a lot of lock-up's and freezes since switching to Leopard on both my iMac and MBP. Neither of which have much of anything outside a few iTunes songs and word documents.

I am happy with Leopard but the problems have increased 10x since switching to it. But, that is expected having gotten it when it first came out (well, at least I think so) so it is nothing that is really blowing my mind.