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Phooto

macrumors member
Oct 30, 2007
83
1
I would welcome Fusion on my MBP. I have a 128GB SSD for the OS, programs and my Lightroom catalog, and a 500GB hybrid drive for documents and images.

If the OS looked after what went where, it would probably give me a little extra performance.

I'm assuming it's a software thing, but doubt my 2009 C2D 13" MBP will run it anyway!

No alternatives in the MacBook range at the moment that work for me, apart from a regular MacBook Pro. :(
 

viacavour

macrumors 6502a
Mar 22, 2012
636
0
Or PR BS, suit yourself.



Then you realise the statement was wrong.




You claim consumer grade SSD is more reliable and has more write cycles? Anything to back that up?

Fusion Drive is an OS-integrated way to optimize your file location. It aims to provide SSD-like performance with HDD-like storage size.

I didn't say it has more write cycles. I said it is not a concern for consumer apps. You or anyone can google for the info yourself.

----------

From the configure your Mac Mini page:

Image

Prices right there.

Cool, so the markup is not 4x ? It's $170 (Anuba's old SSD) vs $250 (Apple's new BTO) for the SSD, since the HDD part is already included.
 

NewbieCanada

macrumors 68030
Oct 9, 2007
2,574
37
I doubt VMware minds, but those examples are not in the computer industry, so of course they aren't going to care.

I was trying to make my point by example, rather than explicitly - you can't own an existing word whether you care or not, and using an existing word as your product name means you accept others may use it.

While VMWare and Apple are both in the computer industry, the two Fusions are completely different products, serving different purposes, and whether they care or not there's nothing they can do about it.
 

viacavour

macrumors 6502a
Mar 22, 2012
636
0
Sounds interesting! But technically, if you know which files you use often, can't you just get an SSD and an HDD, and then do the same thing, with two logical volumes?

Apps and the OS don't take up much space, so you could simply put the entire OS and all your Apps on the SSD, and always store your media (photos, music) on the HDD. That way, you'd always know what is where, and why certain things are fast while others are slow. Would that pretty much be like having a Fusion Drive, but without the automatic file swapping?

(I'm asking as I want to swap my MBP's CD drive to an SSD)

Yeah I think the common system files would naturally go into the 128GB SSD. It won't take up 128GB, but doing the user file arrangement will be a hassle. If you want to do it yourself, you might as well buy a SSD drive and a HDD separately.

If you don't mind the premium ($80 difference for the BTO SSD vs aftermarket SSD, plus HDD markup), then let Fusion Drive do it for you. Personally, I will just let the OS do it. Some sites mention that we can replace the SSD and HDD parts ourselves. If true, that means we can upgrade the drive too.
 

Nee412

macrumors 6502
Jun 25, 2010
281
8
Sunny England!
The Fusion Drive alone is tempting me away from the 13" rMBP and towards the new iMac.

The idea of having 1TB of storage (enough for all my needs) with the extra speed the Fusion Drive offers on regularly used files and applications sounds perfect for me. In a 13" rMBP I'd only be looking at the 128GB flash drive basic configuration for the same price. Enough for my mobile computing needs, but since my Macbook rarely moves further than the distance between my sofa and my dining table it's not really worth it.

I think Apple has hit the nail on the head here with an innovation worth far more than anything else they revealed yesterday. A drive pairing that offers slightly more functionality than a hybrid drive setup without the user needing to do a thing other than by a new Mac and switch it on. Until Flash becomes cheap enough to be offered at a reasonable price, what more could the average consumer want? What more could the Pro users expect?
 

lunaoso

macrumors 65816
Sep 22, 2012
1,332
54
Boston, MA
The cost of flash memory has already dropped to about $0.66/GB, but Apple is maintaining between $1.95/GB (macs) and $6.25/GB (16 to 32GB iPad) for their SSD prices.

Yeah but it's nothing compared to a hard drives $0.10/GB. Once we can get TB SSDs for a hundred bucks then they will go mainstream.
 

kalsta

macrumors 68000
May 17, 2010
1,677
577
Australia
most of us do not need that bigger size as main drive, you always need to backup the data into some external drive.

I'm with you on that one. I'd prefer one internal SSD which keeps things fast and simple. But I sense most people don't share that view, whether they need the extra space or not—they've become accustomed to certain specs and anything less seems like a step backwards.
 

odedia

macrumors 65816
Nov 24, 2005
1,044
149
I really hope this feature becomes available to other macs that have an SSD and HDD already installed. Even the previous generation iMacs you could have an SSD and HDD installed by Apple. If they open it up to other computers, I'll look forward to installing it on my Macbook Pro with the dual drives instead of the optical drive.

Exactly, I have a 17" MBP with 750gb hard drive and an intel x-25m SSD replacing the superdrive. Would LOVE to have it as a single partition, because it's a pain to manage right now.
 

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,565
Personally, an SSD boot drive and separate large HD seems more practical. No need to "fuse" them into one volume. Just seems like asking for trouble.

Nonsense. How is this more practical, having to manually decide what goes where? That's what you have a computer for, to do boring tasks for you.

For example: MacOS X comes with 200 printer drivers. I never use 198 of them. Should I go hunting down which ones are the ones I use, and remove the other ones, or move them somewhere else, and when I buy a new printer I spend on hour finding the missing driver, or wouldn't it be much better if the OS did that automatically for me, moving 198 of them to the hard drive over time, and when I buy a new printer, the printer driver is once or twice loaded from the spinning hard drive and then goes to the SSD drive?


Wonder why no larger SSD option, especially since you can get a much bigger SSD alone. There must be some sort of balance between the SSD and HDD components in the Fusion configuration.

Probably because anything over 128 GB doesn't give much speed advantage anymore for most users. Lots of things on your hard drive are not used for long times.


Very interesting, though I'm wondering what if one of those drives fail. Is your data retrievable from the other one?

Same as now. Your data is retrievable from your Time Machine backup. If you don't have one, that's your won fault.


So how is the fusion drive going to handle Bootcamp? Is the fusion drive handled by OSX or is it baked into the hardware ?

You have partitions. With plain MacOS X setup, you have one partition covering two drives. With Bootcamp, you will have one partition covering the SSD and the start of the spinning hard drive, and another covering the rest of the spinning hard drive. Bootcamp uses the second partition and runs unchanged.


It sounds like it's not duplicated. You have 128GB extra space. Files are either on the SSD or the HD, not both.

Apple could actually do better. You heard of file fragmentation, which is when a file is split into non-contiguous parts on your hard drive. Now if you have say any Quicktime files (music and movies), you could have intentional fragmentation, where the metadata (title, artist, cover image) and maybe the first five seconds of music are on the SSD drive, and the actual music / video on the spinning drive. So iTunes would run at SSD speed, except for playing the music.

And since this is on a per-file basis, when you have an app that is localized in 20 different languages, 19 of them should go to the spinning hard drive automatically.


I would rather have a dedicated SSD and a separate hard disk, not this "FUSION" deal -- I would like to make sure the SSD is ONLY being used for my system and Applications, which need the extra speed constantly.

They don't. Large parts of the OS are never used, like 198 of the 200 printer drivers. Many applications are never used. Most localisations in the other apps are never used.


so is that means, if I save a file one time, actually, it was saved 2 times, one to ssd, and one to hard disk? I don't know how it transfer data from ssd to hard disk. is it transfer data directly between ssd and hard disk (something like DMA in cpu's world) or it transfer data via cpu and still need consume main bus band width? if it is second case, it can not be called an innovation.

WTF? It's the same thing that defragmentation and hot zoning already do on any Macintosh. Innovation isn't creating perverted technical solutions for non-problems, innovation is taking what is already available and turning it into something that is actually useful for your customers.


As it was explained in the keynote, this puts whole files on one drive or the other, never across both. Raid0 stripes files across both drives at the bit level, so you could end up with half of each of your files in a drive failure.

In a drive failure with fusion it seems like you would be left with a functioning drive containing the files that were on it at the time of failure.

Keynote = dumbed down for the masses. Phil Schiller also demonstrated how two applications were exchanged - that doesn't happen in real life; one may get moved from SSD to HD, one may get moved from HD to SSD, but it is independent. But swapping Garageband for Numbers makes sense to people. Raid0 is something totally different, and Raid0 with SSD and HD would be a most stupid thing to do.

In case of drive failure, you better have a backup. Just as today. Files may be on the other drive, but you won't be able to read them if the drive with the directory information is dead.
 
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Coastercub

macrumors newbie
Feb 2, 2011
22
0
UK
So how is the fusion drive going to handle Bootcamp? Is the fusion drive handled by OSX or is it baked into the hardware ?
 

kemal

macrumors 68000
Dec 21, 2001
1,826
2,221
Nebraska
The Mac Observer reports that there are two separate drives that appear as one logical partition. As a result, if your Hard Drive fails, it could be replaced with a 3rd party drive and reconfigured as a Fusion Drive.

Neglecting Apple's use of proprietary hard drives with PWM temperature reporting via the power connector. Good luck finding one at NEwEgg.
 

haravikk

macrumors 65816
May 1, 2005
1,499
21
I've been hoping for a better way to manage a mixed SSD and HD setup but I'm not sure I'm completely convinced by this implementation.

Personally I'd rather just converted my current SSD to be a traditional read cache for my big hard drive RAID array. It's still a nice feature, but the ability to tweak reads versus writes for an SSD is important, as some don't cope too well with high write traffic, though I suppose Apple is hand picking drives that are suited to the feature.


Anyway, I'm hoping this means that the feature is implemented by Core Storage, and that it has some configuration options included that make it a bit more flexible than the default setup. This would also mean that it should be compatible with any mixed high-speed and low-speed setup.

If it is a full tiered implementation then it could be especially interesting if it can handle more than two tiers; for example a big array of slow platter drives, a medium fast platter drive and a small very fast SSD. Obviously not much use for most people but for us Mac Pro users with a heap of disks it could be a nice system if it's flexible enough, though I'd still prefer the redundancy of having the slowest tier hosting all files, with updated copies in faster tiers trickling down over time.


So how is the fusion drive going to handle Bootcamp? Is the fusion drive handled by OSX or is it baked into the hardware ?
It sounds like it wouldn't work for Windows, so Bootcamp will presumably have to create a new partition on one of the drives for Windows to go on. So you'd have three partitions, two on separate drives combined into a Fusion drive, and one as a regular Windows partition on one (but not both) drives. This is sort of how an encrypted Mac OS startup volume works when you have Bootcamp, except that it'll also extend to additional partitions by grouping them into a "Fusion" logical volume.


While VMWare and Apple are both in the computer industry, the two Fusions are completely different products, serving different purposes, and whether they care or not there's nothing they can do about it.
I'm not sure I'd even call Apple's "Fusion" a product, as it's really just an OS feature. I can't wait to have VMWare Fusion running a Fusion volume on a Fusion volume though ;)
 
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Tom Sawyer

macrumors 6502a
Aug 29, 2007
686
40
So how is the fusion drive going to handle Bootcamp? Is the fusion drive handled by OSX or is it baked into the hardware ?

An earlier comment is accurate: This has been a feature of certain Intel chipsets for quite a while now. They are probably going to be using the Z68 or Z77 chipset, both of which include SSD Caching. The extra cost is just the addition of the SSD hardware and undoubtedly EFI configuration to 'turn on' SSD caching in the chipset, aka 'Fusion Drive'.

Knowing how a dedicated SSD transforms performance of any computer, my personal preference would be to have a dedicated SSD for OS/Apps. I've not configured any PC's I've built with SSD caching, but my guess is that a 1TB drive + a 128gb SSD drive set up as cache would present itself to the OS as a 1TB drive. In this way, they are certainly 'simplifying' the presentation of a multiple drive configuration system to the end user. Many prefer to have just one hard drive (read, partition) to deal with and think about.

Since it is hardware based, it should be transparent to the OS (presented as 1 hard drive not 2) and therefore be fine with bootcamp.
 

tann

macrumors 68000
Apr 15, 2010
1,944
813
UK
Someone needs to buy a regular hdd based one, a fusion based one and a flash based one and run some tests :D
 

Acat69

macrumors newbie
Apr 6, 2012
7
0
These drives have been on the retail market for a while now. Apple didn't invent anything.
 

Damian83

macrumors 6502a
Jul 20, 2011
501
275
i have two questions:

considering there will be an ssd and a hdd for forming the fusion, there will be 2 sata slots, or 1 for hd, and the ssd will have special connectors like in air's?

if there will be 2 sata slots, theorically its enough to add a 3rd party ssd to the second slot, to create the fusion right?
 

cgc

macrumors 6502a
May 30, 2003
718
23
Utah
I'd prefer to have an SSD and an HDD and not an Apple-branded hybrid as this seems to complicate and restrict things a bit.
 

gamrin

macrumors newbie
Jul 26, 2012
24
25
I just ordered the mid-range Mac Mini with a 1TB Fusion drive for right at $1000, education pricing. What I'm curious about is what happens when you try to partition that drive (for, say, Bootcamp)? That'll be fun to see.
 

Aidan5806

macrumors 6502
Feb 20, 2012
312
0
What is the procedure when one of the two drives fail? Seems like a Raid0 scenario.

The chance of one of the two drives failing is equal to that of the failure of the HDD, which would result in a drive replacement......so im still not sure how thats a prominent problem.
 

bbeagle

macrumors 68040
Oct 19, 2010
3,542
2,982
Buffalo, NY
I just ordered the mid-range Mac Mini with a 1TB Fusion drive for right at $1000, education pricing. What I'm curious about is what happens when you try to partition that drive (for, say, Bootcamp)? That'll be fun to see.

It's pretty obvious. The Mac OS X Mountain Lion partition will take ALL the flash, and the windows partition will take NONE of the flash, because the Windows OS cannot handle the details of moving data back and forth from/to flash/hard drive. (It can't handle it because it's not designed to do that until someone makes that work in Windows)
 

dernhelm

macrumors 68000
May 20, 2002
1,649
137
middle earth
I just ordered the mid-range Mac Mini with a 1TB Fusion drive for right at $1000, education pricing. What I'm curious about is what happens when you try to partition that drive (for, say, Bootcamp)? That'll be fun to see.

Agreed. Please post here when you find out. If the fusion drive handles the details in the hardware, then you probably wouldn't notice. If instead it is handled in the file system drivers, then it would likely only work like a "fusion" drive under OS/X and/or HFS+

My guess is that the work is handled in the hardware. In which case it would partition just fine. I don't have any good facts to back that suspicion however.
 

janstett

macrumors 65816
Jan 13, 2006
1,235
0
Chester, NJ
Way cool technology aside, is anyone else curious how VMWare feels about the name?

Or Ford? Or Gillette?

00047400305526.jpg
2013_ford_fusion_sedan_se_fq_oem_3_300.jpg
 

Tech198

Cancelled
Mar 21, 2011
15,915
2,151
Lets get the tech out :

"To be clear, this is not a caching concept, at least not in the current use of the word. Cache would imply that the data on the SSD is duplicated, and it's not"

So, technically, you could comfortably say any spinning hard drive today is also not a "current cache concept" either as data is read, but its still duplicated.

What are they trying to say here?

If its not duplicated... then whats the point of a cache (their version), since you'd only have one copy of the data at all times.

It would be basically like a read into memory, and write back to the cache (and eventually to disk), but in all cases nothing is ever duplicated.

If this is correct, then i'm glad the "cache" is not wiped when you loose power, as you would need it.

Maybe I got it wrong, but this is what it sounds like to me.

Give me a solid-state-drive any day, to this.
 

k995

macrumors 6502a
Jan 23, 2010
933
173
Fusion Drive is an OS-integrated way to optimize your file location. It aims to provide SSD-like performance with HDD-like storage size.
And that is utter BS as you yourself stated.

No you get SSD like performance for an SSD like storage size. The rest remains slow HDD storage .

I didn't say it has more write cycles. I said it is not a concern for consumer apps. You or anyone can google for the info yourself.
And it is a concern as most advise not to do what apple is doing.
 
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