Here's the problem with building the über-efficient manufacturing complex---it would be all robotic, minimal human staff. That's the reality.
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Former Apple Executives Address Working Conditions in Suppliers' Factories
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Here's the problem with building the über-efficient manufacturing complex---it would be all robotic, minimal human staff. That's the reality.
Cost to build iMac here $22.
Cost to build at Foxcon $ 5
____
Additional cost for US made model $17
The real reason is not labor costs in products that are assembled in minutes.
I just bought a caulk gun (eat your hearts out). "Designed and engineered in the U.S.A. Manufactured in China".
Cost to build at Foxcon $ 5
____
Additional cost for US made model $17
The real reason is not labor costs in products that are assembled in minutes.
I just bought a caulk gun (eat your hearts out). "Designed and engineered in the U.S.A. Manufactured in China".
Yes, they COULD pull out of business with Foxconn. Its an issue of ethics, which as we all know is a big issue to address with companies as big as apple.
Who is to say investors wont be happy if they move operations to the USA? Apple can either take a hit on their 40% profit margins or raise prices to maintain their profit margins.
I assume they would do the latter, but then people would also raise an eyebrow! I for one, would pay 10% more for apple product built in the USA. Hell if they did that, it might give me a good avenue to buy only american made products, who knows?
Apple can sit and do less, or stand and do more...
Of course
There are bound to be some issues when you are dealing with the type of numbers Apple is dealing with
I'm impressed that I haven't heard worse and more stories of labor abuse from Apple suppliers when there are so many employees working as apple suppliers.
There are bound to be some issues when you are dealing with the type of numbers Apple is dealing with
I'm impressed that I haven't heard worse and more stories of labor abuse from Apple suppliers when there are so many employees working as apple suppliers.
THis isn't an Apple problem - and at the heart of it it isn't even a China problem.
It's a US/North American workers problem. Our attitudes, our expectations, our Xbox-internet-iPhone-Starbucks lifestyles. We love to live lavishly and demand maximum benefits from employers, and wave our big Union cards when employers claim they can no longer afford us.
FFS the sanitation workers in Toronto make a fortune. Posties as well, with the option to retire at what, 50?
Powerful unions and the need to keep up with the Joneses have driven manufacturing out of North America. We are as much to blame as the foreign governments we are so quick to judge.
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And go where? To the *other* Foxconn-like mega-manufacturer in Asia?
Do you propose a mass exodus from China when they are the largest single holders of U.S. government debt?
It's a US/North American workers problem. Our attitudes, our expectations, our Xbox-internet-iPhone-Starbucks lifestyles. We love to live lavishly and demand maximum benefits from employers, and wave our big Union cards when employers claim they can no longer afford us.
FFS the sanitation workers in Toronto make a fortune. Posties as well, with the option to retire at what, 50?
Powerful unions and the need to keep up with the Joneses have driven manufacturing out of North America. We are as much to blame as the foreign governments we are so quick to judge.
----------
And go where? To the *other* Foxconn-like mega-manufacturer in Asia?
Do you propose a mass exodus from China when they are the largest single holders of U.S. government debt?
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I don't know, good sir.
Sounds like!
They could be "former executives" because they were fired specifically for speaking up and trying to do something about this stuff, or perhaps they left because they didn't have the power to do anything and decided not to be a part of it. Who knows?
If you paint the anonymous sources as villains for not "speaking up when they were in a position to do something," then place an equal amount of blame on the current Apple execs for doing the same thing.
Seems like it *is* an Apple problem, or nobody would be talking about it. Saying you don't have a problem when people are shooting arrows at you doesn't make the problem cease to exist, and that's what the article describes here. Apple says they want to do something about it, but then they turn a blind eye.
We applaud the underdog for beating the odds - until they have cash in the bank. At that point the company is suddenly the demonstration of the worst aspects of inhumane capitalism.
For the people pointing out that Apple has $100B of cash - are you suggesting that if the company was deeply in debt the worker's conditions would be OK as they are?
You know why?
Because there is little to nothing they can do about it. The media keeps pushing the story because it's Apple, and Apple at the end of the day has to get realistic, even if critics and those reporting on the story live in a fantasy-land.
Go push the international community, or else get comfy with paying more and tell your friends the same. Pick up a sign and start lobbying and protesting. Go for it.
Perhaps it's a matter of perspective. What jobs did these people have before getting hired at Foxconn? None perhaps? What were their living conditions?
The factory conditions may not be what the western world would like them to be, but that's 90% of the world. Our perspective is just a tad skewed.
Besides - nobody is making these people work there. If the conditions are really that poor - each employee is free to get a different job. Ah, wait - no better ones available?
Attaching Apple's name to it? Did you read the article? It's not like it was an article about China and its working conditions. It's called "Apples iPad and the Human Costs for Workers in China" and is all about APPLE.
And you know what - the timing of the article is probably on purpose. And good for the NYT to time it that way as they know "all eyes" are on Apple and the information will actually be read instead of passed over. That's a bad thing?
When Apple "times" its releases it's considered genius. But when the NYT "times" its story they are opportunists? Ok.
I disagree about their ability to change it. Apple isn't a "we can't do anything about it" company.
True. If the factory workers are making $17 per day that calculates out to $500 a month. That doesn't sound too bad considering that it's over twice the highest minimum wage in China.
Foxconn's major customers:
Acer Inc. (Taiwan)
Amazon.com (United States)
Amazon (United States)
ASRock (Taiwan)
Asus (Taiwan)
Barnes & Noble (United States)
Cisco (United States)
Dell (United States)
EVGA Corporation (United States)
Hewlett-Packard (United States)
Intel (United States)
IBM (United States)
Lenovo (China)
Logitech (Switzerland)
Microsoft (United States)
MSI (Taiwan)
Motorola (United States)
Netgear (United States)
Nintendo (Japan)
Nokia (Finland)
Panasonic (Japan)
Philips (Netherlands)
Samsung (South Korea)
Sharp (Japan)
Sony Ericsson (Japan/Sweden)
Toshiba (Japan)
Vizio (United States)
Where do you see the press mentioning Toshiba, Sharp, Panasonic, Microsoft?
Apple is in the spotlight, so they get all the heat. You want a story to FLY?? Just write "Apple" into the headline.
Turning this into an Apple problem as opposed to an international human rights problem is SLANDER. Period. But hey, I'm sure Apple's cool with taking the hits on behalf of the rest of the industry, right?
If apple can change the entire phone industry, or the entire tablet industry, why cant they change the global supply chain industry?
China's government won't change their ways for the same reasons Apple won't.
Besides doing business elsewhere, of course. Intel has plants all over the world. I'm sure Apple can call them up for tips.
And go where? What other supplier can meet the needs? Did you give up meat and dairy just because you know that the animals have sad lives? No, you didn't, because you need it. Apple needs products to sell to people who want them, and if they pull out of Foxconn because of your moral outrage, they have no products to sell, no way to pay people, and no company. That's life. It's not Apple's responsibility to govern China.
I guess, just ultimately, I look at my iPhone and it makes me feel good. And then I look at this article, and I think, NOW does this make me feel good?
This is not about wages... it's about working conditions. Everybody knows you cannot compare wages dollar for dollar (or renminbi) across countries. What I'm talking about is maybe even beyond Foxconn to their suppliers... and THEIR suppliers.
Indentured servitude, forced overtime, 20 workers living together in a small apartment, and especially etc. etc. etc.
And then there's this, from the article. The most damning thing: worker safety.
It is gross negligence, after an explosion occurs, not to realize that every factory should be inspected, said Nicholas Ashford, the occupational safety expert, who is now at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. If it were terribly difficult to deal with aluminum dust, I would understand. But do you know how easy dust is to control? Its called ventilation. We solved this problem over a century ago.
I swear, it sometimes seems like some people here would be totally fine with looking the other way if there were another Triangle Shirtwaist Factory tragedy... because after all, all the companies seem to do it, so why should we care?
We ask, as we look back at our shiny iPhone.
What are you people... On Dope!?
It is obvious that many of the posters here are not business people or economists. Riddle me this. How does Apple moving operations to the US help Foxconn employees? It doesn't. In fact it would devastate their economy and force thousands back into the fields to earn enough to make a living. The same goes for robotics. How does an automated factory help workers? By giving them unlimited free time to pursue intellectual interests?
Fact: China has a population problem and a labor over-supply. The labor rate is set by the labor supply and the cost of living among other things. Foxconn employees are paid a fair rate based on how many people want those jobs the skills required and what goods cost in that area. People who say foreign companies should pay higher wages are clueless about how economies work.
Imagine a foreign company came to your home town and set-up a business that virtually everyone in your city was capable of doing. They then offered thousands of jobs that pay one million dollars a year. What do you think would happen? People would be literally killing each other to get these jobs. And what would happen to the price of goods in your town? With thousands of millionaires inflation would sky-rocket and soon anyone who didn't work for this company would be priced out of being able to survive.
Sound unrealistic? Well it happened with maquiladoras across the border in Mexico. Dealing with operations in foreign countries is a very complex and problematic situation and one that I would venture to say no one here is likely to have the experience or understanding to appreciate.
Certainly, Apple should be (and is) working to keep from having vulnerable populations (like children) exploited, but paying willing workers the going rate for their economy is actually the responsible thing to do.
I'm sorry but the childish view of "Apple has a bunch of money and so they should save the world" simply shows that you have a limited conceptual ability to understand the complexities of economies, capital markets and strategic planning. And I would venture to say that the people here complaining that Apple should do something are the same people that buy stuff from Walmart and quickly switch the channel when a "Save the Children" ad comes on TV. Anyone here has the means to literally save dozens of lives every month. Are you doing that?
It is obvious that many of the posters here are not business people or economists. Riddle me this. How does Apple moving operations to the US help Foxconn employees? It doesn't. In fact it would devastate their economy and force thousands back into the fields to earn enough to make a living. The same goes for robotics. How does an automated factory help workers? By giving them unlimited free time to pursue intellectual interests?
Fact: China has a population problem and a labor over-supply. The labor rate is set by the labor supply and the cost of living among other things. Foxconn employees are paid a fair rate based on how many people want those jobs the skills required and what goods cost in that area. People who say foreign companies should pay higher wages are clueless about how economies work.
Imagine a foreign company came to your home town and set-up a business that virtually everyone in your city was capable of doing. They then offered thousands of jobs that pay one million dollars a year. What do you think would happen? People would be literally killing each other to get these jobs. And what would happen to the price of goods in your town? With thousands of millionaires inflation would sky-rocket and soon anyone who didn't work for this company would be priced out of being able to survive.
Sound unrealistic? Well it happened with maquiladoras across the border in Mexico. Dealing with operations in foreign countries is a very complex and problematic situation and one that I would venture to say no one here is likely to have the experience or understanding to appreciate.
Certainly, Apple should be (and is) working to keep from having vulnerable populations (like children) exploited, but paying willing workers the going rate for their economy is actually the responsible thing to do.
I'm sorry but the childish view of "Apple has a bunch of money and so they should save the world" simply shows that you have a limited conceptual ability to understand the complexities of economies, capital markets and strategic planning. And I would venture to say that the people here complaining that Apple should do something are the same people that buy stuff from Walmart and quickly switch the channel when a "Save the Children" ad comes on TV. Anyone here has the means to literally save dozens of lives every month. Are you doing that?
Ok. Open your wallet.
Don't want to? Fine. Then go buy a Dell. Oops. Ok, then HP. Oops. Same situation.
Not so easy now, is it?
Yeah, they can try to tell China how to run their country, and China can tell them to go to he**, and then welcome Samsung with open arms.
Unfortunately, $$$ trumps ethics nowadays.
Even if Apple raised prices a bit, I'm sure millions of people will still stand in lines for hours for a new iDevice.
Because in the scale of things Apple is small compared to all of the other appliances and electronics that exist in peoples houses.
Not everyone has an Apple product, but almost everyone has a microwave, TV, computer, printer, camera, router, etc. ALL of those contain not only Foxconn products, but products from other suppliers with conditions that are just as bad, if not much worse than Foxconn.
It isn't Apple's problem, but they have been working for years to fix it:
http://www.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/
Bad, evil, awful Apple
The NYT should be ashamed of themselves for this hit-whoring piece of yellow journalism. Where was the outrage when all these jobs were pushed overseas in the first place? Apple is mentioned not only in the headline, but over one-hundred times in the article. Others are mentioned once - Dell and HP are mentioned for example - but not singled out the way Apple is. HP, Dell, Acer, Asus, Msoft, and dozens, you might as well say ALL, other electronics manufacturers are doing the same thing, with lower standards than Apple is pushing for, and together comprise way more manufacturing than Apple.
Of course, it doesn't end with electronics, check the labels at WalMart or Target. The toaster you bought thirty years age from an American manufacturer was made in America. The same manufacturer now produces all of their products in China. Why? Because retailers like Walmart push their suppliers for the lowest-cost product, or Walmart does not sell their product. So West Bend, Black & Decker, RCA, GE, and many other American manufacturers are forced to compete in this way - farming all their labour and assembly to offshore sites where the bottom line is the lowest.
Wall Street gurus saw the bottom lines opening up - lower prices to consumers meant higher volumes and profits for those who off-shored first. Talking heads said that America has gone beyond the manufacturing paradigm, and was entering the world of service-driven economy. One small problem - without the manufacturing jobs - no one has the money to buy these goods. It is a vicious cycle. Marx correctly predicted this weakness in capitalism - and perhaps the Chinese picked up on it too - you can't blame them for trying to better themselves even if it is at our expense.
Consumers are just as much to blame for this condition, shareholders perhaps even more so, but we seem to have been led to this slaughter by degrees. If GE can sell an automatic coffeemaker for $12 when their American-made competitors sell the same/similar product for $25 - who do you think is going to win? We will not spend the extra $13 because that's our personal bottom line being impacted - multiply that effect across all the goods produced in China and you have the big picture. American-made competitor is very quickly driven - by its shareholders - to do the same things GE has done to get their product down to $12 - offshoring.
To compare the lives of Chinese workers in these factories to slavery is just plain sensationalism. If you saw conditions in China even just twenty years ago, you would see the miracle of Chinese capitalism for what it is - an engine for growth in one of the poorest nations on earth.
With current levels of automation, it may be possible for Americans to get back in the game, labour and manual assembly being just one part of the picture. But it will take innovation and incentive to get there, and I'm not sure Western investors have the stomach for it when the sure thing is already established. We also lack the technical capacity, our education system is failing us here, as are the business leaders and CEOs who bank such huge bonuses for undermining America while propping up foreign manufacturers.
It's not about Apple. If the NYT was serious about this issue, why the focus on Apple? Hit-whoring aside, is there an agenda here? I'm surpised by the general reaction I'm reading here - another sign of our declining educations system. People need to question authority, and these days, so-called journalism, scarce examples of which exist anywhere, especially in the Delusional States of America.
dmz
The NYT should be ashamed of themselves for this hit-whoring piece of yellow journalism. Where was the outrage when all these jobs were pushed overseas in the first place? Apple is mentioned not only in the headline, but over one-hundred times in the article. Others are mentioned once - Dell and HP are mentioned for example - but not singled out the way Apple is. HP, Dell, Acer, Asus, Msoft, and dozens, you might as well say ALL, other electronics manufacturers are doing the same thing, with lower standards than Apple is pushing for, and together comprise way more manufacturing than Apple.
Of course, it doesn't end with electronics, check the labels at WalMart or Target. The toaster you bought thirty years age from an American manufacturer was made in America. The same manufacturer now produces all of their products in China. Why? Because retailers like Walmart push their suppliers for the lowest-cost product, or Walmart does not sell their product. So West Bend, Black & Decker, RCA, GE, and many other American manufacturers are forced to compete in this way - farming all their labour and assembly to offshore sites where the bottom line is the lowest.
Wall Street gurus saw the bottom lines opening up - lower prices to consumers meant higher volumes and profits for those who off-shored first. Talking heads said that America has gone beyond the manufacturing paradigm, and was entering the world of service-driven economy. One small problem - without the manufacturing jobs - no one has the money to buy these goods. It is a vicious cycle. Marx correctly predicted this weakness in capitalism - and perhaps the Chinese picked up on it too - you can't blame them for trying to better themselves even if it is at our expense.
Consumers are just as much to blame for this condition, shareholders perhaps even more so, but we seem to have been led to this slaughter by degrees. If GE can sell an automatic coffeemaker for $12 when their American-made competitors sell the same/similar product for $25 - who do you think is going to win? We will not spend the extra $13 because that's our personal bottom line being impacted - multiply that effect across all the goods produced in China and you have the big picture. American-made competitor is very quickly driven - by its shareholders - to do the same things GE has done to get their product down to $12 - offshoring.
To compare the lives of Chinese workers in these factories to slavery is just plain sensationalism. If you saw conditions in China even just twenty years ago, you would see the miracle of Chinese capitalism for what it is - an engine for growth in one of the poorest nations on earth.
With current levels of automation, it may be possible for Americans to get back in the game, labour and manual assembly being just one part of the picture. But it will take innovation and incentive to get there, and I'm not sure Western investors have the stomach for it when the sure thing is already established. We also lack the technical capacity, our education system is failing us here, as are the business leaders and CEOs who bank such huge bonuses for undermining America while propping up foreign manufacturers.
It's not about Apple. If the NYT was serious about this issue, why the focus on Apple? Hit-whoring aside, is there an agenda here? I'm surpised by the general reaction I'm reading here - another sign of our declining educations system. People need to question authority, and these days, so-called journalism, scarce examples of which exist anywhere, especially in the Delusional States of America.
dmz