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chickenninja

macrumors 6502
Feb 13, 2008
356
21
inside my skull
That's not the issue. The question was posed in response to the expectation that business provide free wifi to the public in order to blanket the country.///////
It's also interesting to note your examples--the USPS is self-funding based on the rates they charge, and libraries require gifts, grants, and supplemental sales just to stay afloat. Library budgets are usually the first ones cut in a cash crunch, and they're money-starved across the nation because the taxpayers don't want to foot the bill.


So heres what i see(today), i see places offering free wifi as incentive. I dont see that decreasing, in fact i expect it to increase from competition. This is why i expect to see free wifi everywhere, I agree with you that it would be too much radio activity in an already saturated radio atmosphere. I would much rather go to a coffee shop that had ethernet cables coming out the walls or even fiber-optic in the future. Cables are much easier to maintain network security. We have yet to see if there are LONG term health risks associated with wifi. We wont know until its been a LONG time. magnifying and amplifying short term results will not yield long term results. The other thing i see happening is cell data networks that rival wifi speeds, making hotspots and maybe even wifi a thing of the past. Television tuners, cell phones, and radio tuners, have yet to be included in computers. (accessorys aside) Id love to hear any theories why that is.

My analogy to the post office was one of Historic value and is somewhat off topic, I think it was one of Congresses first acts to create a Postal Service. I wanted to point out that internet is this generations postal service and should receive the same care and attention. The current postal service is much more expensive and environmentally impact-full than internet, considering the cost of physically moving letters, delivery, mailmen salaries. compared to 1/1000 of a cent for electrical signal. Mail trucks require roads and post offices, email requires a network and servers,so in that regard i ignore the cost on both sides. Rememer there is no advertising on letters and you pay for them with stamps. spam is universal. There is no advertising on XM radio and you pay for it. Normal tv and Radio are free but have advertising. Internet has advertising. Yahoo mail is free, and is funded by yahoo add revenue. I bring this up not because i want the internet to be funded by ad revenue from yahoo or networks like ABC & NBC. but because I find the comparison fascinating. And worth consideration by us as consumers, who pay for internet access and experience internet adds, i think one of the two should go. I also think tv should swapp commercials for product placement.

Allot of people criticizing me have an ideological perspective that free services spell corporate disaster. This is not the case, take SUN Microsystems for example who provide their software open source. RC willey gives out free hotdogs and drinks on saturdays. Maybe theyve never been to a trade show before? companies throw free stuff around like a pigskin. There is a reason that words like "promotion" exist. free nuts at the bar. I believe the reason they assume corporate disaster is because they dont understand that once the infrastructure is in place, upkeep and expansion is incredibly minimal. Or they assume a company would overextend their budget, which is a problem with the managing not the promotion. So in the case of star-bucks, they obviously felt offering totally free wifi was not profitable, but when they offer cup insulators for free, the cost is in the cup, the store is lit the employees paid, the cost is in the cup. Everything they do is balanced together, they trim the prices carefully to pay for everything including advertising and publicity, Im surprised and disappointed they didn't cut their wifi promotion a bigger piece. Because it would be good publicity.
A million dollar super bowl add will get your name out, but a million dollar wifi plan will put people in your store.
 

bluemonq

macrumors newbie
May 1, 2008
11
0
Im surprised and disappointed they didn't cut their wifi promotion a bigger piece. Because it would be good publicity.
A million dollar super bowl add will get your name out, but a million dollar wifi plan will put people in your store.
Again, you assume that more people will come to Starbucks -- and keep coming -- because of free wi-fi. And again you forget that IT'S NOT EVEN THEIR WI-FI! They're not paying for a single dime for equipment or bandwidth! It's AT&T who is footing the bill, and giving Starbucks free money.
 

mcdj

macrumors G3
Jul 10, 2007
8,964
4,214
NYC
Well, it was free yesterday at my local starbucks, but today, the option is gone.

Yeah, yesterday all I had to do was enter my phone number. Today it asked for a username/password. I know my user name is my phone number @ att.net, but no idea what my password is.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
No, but it seems the rest of the post (which happens to be the bulk of it) does.

No, not really. My point was that some coffee shops provide these services as a way of inducing customers to come into their stores instead of someone else's. Starbucks doesn't seem to need this inducement.
 

chiefillini

macrumors regular
Oct 28, 2006
110
0
Chicago, IL.
Yeah, yesterday all I had to do was enter my phone number. Today it asked for a username/password. I know my user name is my phone number @ att.net, but no idea what my password is.

I am having the same issue today. Have they decided to revoke the wifi access. Was good for the one day it lasted I guess
 

mcoyne

macrumors member
Sep 15, 2005
39
0
Durham, NC
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)

Hmm... In RDU airport now which has at wifi and it is not free on my iphone. Guess the free service is not universal. Back to 2.5G.
 

daveporter

macrumors regular
Sep 8, 2006
212
0
Green Cove Springs, FL
Yesterday a number of people were reporting on ways to cheat the system and connect their laptops using their iPhone number. Today the service is gone. Does anyone see the connection?

Why do some of you always think that you have the right to do what you please and ignore every rule that gets in your way? Now AT&T will need to impose some pain the the a-- log in method to keep you jerks out. As always, the cheats may have ruined it for the rest of us.

Dave
 

jayzzz

macrumors newbie
May 4, 2008
1
0
Your age is always irrelevant. But right or wrong (wrong on this one, I'm afraid), the age you ACT and how you frame your argument is vitally important.

i realised the discussion lasted for more that half of this topic,i found it extremely interesting at first. however this have turn somewat into framing each others.

As an Australian, i have no idea how the US's wi-fi's infrastructure work, but u can study on cases like Hong Kong and Dubai where wi-fi system covers majority of the city, and you have to admit, the development of apple's wi-fi capable products are one of the driving force of such project, lets be honest... not much people will run around between cafes n places wif a laptop in his hand. now go back to the case of should the service of wi-fi become free for the general public who have purchased a wi-fi capable products. My personal opinion is yes. this tech. opens up potential for new ways of business n communication, but who is going to invest on such a large scale project?.

It should be seen as a type of investment and should look at potential revenue it will generate. assuming a franchise cafe which has the scale of starbuck in the US. (starbuck is not a big thing in sydney... i dont know if its just my personal taste or wat, but their coffee can be considered as one of the worst i have ever tasted) and are providing free wi-fi service. The revenue it generate will obviously overcome the investment needed as it will outrun its competitor. I guess at the end, its a strategy that will required alot of statistic to get it rite. Like Sydney, our mayer have promised us (in 2006) that the wi-fi will be up and running, covering the CBD area of Sydney, (central business district) by 2009. The plan was scraped in early 2008, due to the technical/financial requirement of the project, which will cost us approx. AU$6mil, to get it up and running. There just aint enough potential benefit to the majority public (becuz our technology development is so freakin damn slow, n not many of sydneysider has a wi-fi products). at the end it was just a plan that the Mayor made to get his ass up to the Mayor seat. wat a shame..
 

bluemonq

macrumors newbie
May 1, 2008
11
0
Like Sydney, our mayer have promised us (in 2006) that the wi-fi will be up and running, covering the CBD area of Sydney, (central business district) by 2009. The plan was scraped in early 2008, due to the technical/financial requirement of the project, which will cost us approx. AU$6mil, to get it up and running. There just aint enough potential benefit to the majority public (becuz our technology development is so freakin damn slow, n not many of sydneysider has a wi-fi products). at the end it was just a plan that the Mayor made to get his ass up to the Mayor seat. wat a shame..
That's nothing new. There are many cities in the US that were so gung-ho about creating wireless networks blanketing the city, with free, lower-speed access funded by users who would pay for higher speeds. Private companies were supposed to gain the right to run the network and make some money of it; in other schemes, the builder would recoup the costs of the network and them some, and then turn it over to the city. As it turns out, the money wasn't there. What it takes is entities that have absolutely no intention of profiting from it, and in fact are quite willing to lose money on the project, such as Google's network in Mountain View. There aren't many groups like that who have the money to burn.
 

superfula

macrumors 6502
Mar 17, 2002
319
2
Again, you assume that more people will come to Starbucks -- and keep coming -- because of free wi-fi. And again you forget that IT'S NOT EVEN THEIR WI-FI! They're not paying for a single dime for equipment or bandwidth! It's AT&T who is footing the bill, and giving Starbucks free money.

You can't possibly think that Starbucks isn't paying ATT for the wifi.
 

bluemonq

macrumors newbie
May 1, 2008
11
0
You can't possibly think that Starbucks isn't paying ATT for the wifi.
Does Starbucks need AT&T to put access points in their stores than AT&T needs places frequented by people to set up their wi-fi pay-to-play network? No. I stand by my claims that for consumer usage, Starbucks doesn't pay anything. Until I'm proven wrong, of course.

Now, if Starbucks stores are hopping on that infrastructure for their own business use to link up to the mothership, that's another story... but I imagine that *most* other people understood my previous statement to reflect the first part of this post.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
And what if they do pay? How much can it really cost? The underlying assumption seems to be that internet access is expensive, when we know it's quite cheap.

I stand by my earlier point, which is that if retailers like Starbucks don't provide WiFi to their customers, it's because they really don't see the need to complete in this way with other coffee shops.
 

bluemonq

macrumors newbie
May 1, 2008
11
0
I stand by my earlier point, which is that if retailers like Starbucks don't provide WiFi to their customers, it's because they really don't see the need to complete in this way with other coffee shops.
That's what I've been saying to chickenninja SINCE THE BEGINNING! (Remember all the crap about "image", demographics, and my bit about the Starbucks near my college?) I've NEVER claimed that it'd be prohibitively expensive! Jeez... maybe you have me confused with someone else.
 

djrobsd

macrumors 6502a
May 2, 2008
824
25
Does not work in SD (never did)

My local Starbucks here in San Diego never worked with laptop or iphone, even with my friends iphone it asked him to login with a password. OOPS.
 

matticus008

macrumors 68040
Jan 16, 2005
3,330
1
Bay Area, CA
And what if they do pay? How much can it really cost? The underlying assumption seems to be that internet access is expensive, when we know it's quite cheap.
The connections themselves are about $500 per month, per store. The Cisco hardware they use can accommodate hundreds of simultaneous connections and costs thousands of dollars. The maintenance agreement, along with the service agreement and management provided by T-Mobile (and now, AT&T) also adds up. The only thing Starbucks has to do is pay the electric bill--their employees are not even permitted to touch the equipment.

We're not talking about a D-Link router and a DSL line like at the local free wi-fi shop. Starbucks connections are fast, high capacity hardware connected to T1 connections.

Even at an optimistic $900 per month total (it's almost certainly more than that), we're talking about $7M per month companywide. Assuming the service is break-even (I'm sure it runs at a profit) and has no impact on their overall profit, switching to free service would cause an 11% drop in their annual profits using last year's number. But the drop would actually be higher than that, since some of the profit came from the wi-fi deal.

Could they make that up with the additional customers they'd gain? Would the reduced throughput by opening up the service cause them to lose more business customers than they'd gain in freeloaders?

They've clearly decided the answer to that is "no".
I stand by my earlier point, which is that if retailers like Starbucks don't provide WiFi to their customers, it's because they really don't see the need to complete in this way with other coffee shops.
That's exactly the case.
I dont see that decreasing, in fact i expect it to increase from competition.
If the customers you're trying to attract can already get Internet access, it doesn't generate more business. The more it's available, the less value it adds, especially since commercial ISPs with hotspot networks all offer plans.

For example, if you're an AT&T customer with a cell phone or with home Internet service, you can add wifi access to your account (or it's already included). I can get wifi just about anywhere there is wifi, whether it's free or not--and it doesn't cost me anything. In fact, I prefer commercial hotspots because the connections are faster, more reliable, and require no setup.

Even without this, open wifi nodes everywhere is self-defeating as a business measure. If someone prefers Blenz or Starbucks, but the competitor across the street has free wifi...well, they'll just sit in Starbucks and use your free wifi.
I would much rather go to a coffee shop that had ethernet cables coming out the walls or even fiber-optic in the future. Cables are much easier to maintain network security.
They also cost several thousand dollars to install throughout a retail shop, and then people need to travel with an ethernet cable. It reduces availability to only the seats near walls.
I think it was one of Congresses first acts to create a Postal Service.
Postal service in this country is at least a century older than Congress. Even the USPS is older than Congress by about 15 years.
The current postal service is much more expensive and environmentally impact-full than internet
Ignoring the environmental non-sequitur, the Internet is far more expensive than the postal service. Just the cost of home and small business Internet connections is about 2/3 that of the USPS. Add in enterprise customers and that's a huge number. The USPS has a gigantic labor force and a fleet of vehicles to maintain, dwarfing the costs of ISPs, even if the physical plant comparison is a wash.
And worth consideration by us as consumers, who pay for internet access and experience internet adds, i think one of the two should go.
Paying for internet access has nothing to do with ads. Your connection isn't advertising-supported. Your $40 a month doesn't cover anything but connecting you to the network. It doesn't pay for any of the sites you visit, nor does it pay anyone's hosting costs, which are considerably higher than them just plugging a computer into their DSL line. YouTube's bandwidth costs alone are over $100,000 a day. It's only free because of advertising.
Allot of people criticizing me have an ideological perspective that free services spell corporate disaster.
No. Poorly planned free services that cost millions of dollars and achieve no gains spell "investor lawsuit" and "gross mismanagement".
once the infrastructure is in place, upkeep and expansion is incredibly minimal.
Spoken like someone who's never looked at an operating budget before.
Im surprised and disappointed they didn't cut their wifi promotion a bigger piece.
What wifi promotion?
A million dollar super bowl add will get your name out, but a million dollar wifi plan will put people in your store.
Not at Starbucks, it wouldn't, and a million dollars wouldn't go that far--it wouldn't even cover a week of free service at their company-owned US stores. This assumption that there's a 1:1 correlation just doesn't pan out.

It's amazing what people don't understand about the business world. Your cable connection is tremendously cheaper than business connections, and consumer hardware costs a fraction of professional network equipment. Small and home businesses can continue to make use of that consumer service, but things work a great deal differently at large corporations, especially where the service involved has come to be relied on by professionals and business travelers, whose companies pay the bill for that higher level of service.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
That's what I've been saying to chickenninja SINCE THE BEGINNING! (Remember all the crap about "image", demographics, and my bit about the Starbucks near my college?) I've NEVER claimed that it'd be prohibitively expensive! Jeez... maybe you have me confused with someone else.

Maybe you assumed incorrectly that I was directing this comment at you.

The connections themselves are about $500 per month, per store. The Cisco hardware they use can accommodate hundreds of simultaneous connections and costs thousands of dollars. The maintenance agreement, along with the service agreement and management provided by T-Mobile (and now, AT&T) also adds up. The only thing Starbucks has to do is pay the electric bill--their employees are not even permitted to touch the equipment.

Where do you come by this information? Hundreds of simultaneous connections? Why would they pay for bandwidth far in excess of anything which would ever be used?
 

bluemonq

macrumors newbie
May 1, 2008
11
0
Maybe you assumed incorrectly that I was directing this comment at you.
Erm...oops :p
Where do you come by this information? Hundreds of simultaneous connections? Why would they pay for bandwidth far in excess of anything which would ever be used?
Here is an article from 2002 in which it's stated that the pipe to Starbucks stores are T1 lines; they're a bit cheaper now, down to around "only" $350/month. That's a pretty standard business-class connection, and it was MobileStar (BEFORE T-Mobile HotSpots, actually) who probably paid for them to be laid down. T-Mobile probably kept them up to supplement the fact that they didn't have 3G at all for a long time (though it looks like they're slowly rolling it out). Now that AT&T is running them... well, I don't know if they would charge themselves for the bandwidth in the regions they control. I imagine they have some deals worked out in other areas. As for the "hundreds of simultaneous connections", that refers to the networking equipment and happens to be more a side-effect of having highly-reliable networking equipment. Not many businesses would pay a premium for 99.999% uptime for just one or two connections.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
Here is an article from 2002 in which it's stated that the pipe to Starbucks stores are T1 lines; they're a bit cheaper now, down to around "only" $350/month. That's a pretty standard business-class connection, and it was MobileStar (BEFORE T-Mobile HotSpots, actually) who probably paid for them to be laid down.

You didn't link the article, but I will take your point. Mine would be that (1) this level of service isn't needed to provide casual WiFi connections for customers and (2), if this infrastructure is already up and running, the marginal cost of allowing additional connections is too small to calculate. The problem for Starbucks may be that the original system was set up as expensive pay-for-play, and it's difficult to change that now. I gather most airports are in the same fix. Having allowed subscription services in first, they are hard to dislodge even though free WiFi is becoming so common elsewhere.
 

matticus008

macrumors 68040
Jan 16, 2005
3,330
1
Bay Area, CA
(1) this level of service isn't needed to provide casual WiFi connections for customers
Which is why Starbucks doesn't provide casual wifi connections. They supply dedicated bandwidth and low latency connections to allow business professional to work on the road. These connections are expensive, and business customers rely on them and are more than willing to pay, and so they are not offered for free to customers without limits.

Again, this is not a DLink router and a DSL line.
(2), if this infrastructure is already up and running, the marginal cost of allowing additional connections is too small to calculate.
...What?

The market rate for T1 lines is $500/month nationwide, with prices as high as $800 in some locations. If you can actually find one for $350 as suggested above, you'd be exceptionally lucky. What "small marginal cost" issue you see is not clear.
The problem for Starbucks may be that the original system was set up as expensive pay-for-play, and it's difficult to change that now.
It's not difficult to change, apart from any outstanding contractual issues. It's that there is no valid reason to change. They serve a group of customers willing to pay for professional services, managed by a company that allows people onto the network for free in such a way that any customer can take advantage of it.
I gather most airports are in the same fix. Having allowed subscription services in first, they are hard to dislodge even though free WiFi is becoming so common elsewhere.
No, it's that you cannot use consumer equipment in airports due to the coverage area, interference tolerances, and service capacity required. Some airports have chosen to foot the bill, but it simply gets charged to the airlines in segment fees and gate leases, which in turn is reflected in ticket prices for customers traveling to those locations.

Free wifi does not exist, and this "near-zero marginal cost" idea of yours simply does not scale beyond a corner coffee shop using a home/small office connection. It costs a considerable amount of money to provide these services, and consumers have increasingly simple access to them, obviating the need for random, open access points.

Populating a city with thousands of additional shared-bandwidth connection has a directly negative impact on home users. Not only does it burden the existing neighborhood infrastructure and require huge additional capacity to serve more customers, but it causes interference, severely limiting the range of consumer routers and possibly oversaturating all channels so that you can't create your own network at home. It's an irresponsible mess that ultimately serves no one.

"Free" wifi is no panacea, and it's definitely not free.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
The market rate for T1 lines is $500/month nationwide, with prices as high as $800 in some locations. If you can actually find one for $350 as suggested above, you'd be exceptionally lucky. What "small marginal cost" issue you see is not clear.

First off, I never suggested that it was "free," only that it can be provided quite cheaply, and provides a relatively low-cost incentive for customers to choose to patronize one business over another. Retailers who think they need that competitive edge offer it. Those who don't, do not. Not sure why I have to explain this over and over again.

Second, perhaps you don't understand the concept of marginal cost. The cost of the line is the same, no matter how many connections are made through it. The vast majority of the cost is getting that first connection. The marginal cost of every connection after that is essentially zero.
 
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