I visited the Apple Store today and tried out the new MacBook Pro keyboards...

[257Loner]

And it's obvious to me that Apple has forgotten what a good keyboard is. Typing on the new 2023 Apple Silicon MacBook Pros is like typing on concrete! I'm afraid my next computer after this 2015 Retina MacBook Pro will be another 2015 Retina MacBook Pro. Might as well. They're perfect. Retina screen. Magsafe 2. HDMI. And most of all, a great keyboard!

 

[iMacDragon]

Honestly, I find my 2015 keyboard to feel mushy in comparison now. Though I think the lenovo keyboard on work laptop is definitely noticeably nicer to type on still.

 

[257Loner]

What also surprised me while I was at the Apple Store was that Apple's desktop keyboards are also stiff, with shallow key travel. There's no reason for that! A desktop keyboard's case can accommodate as generous a key travel as the designer wants. Moreover, previous desktop keyboards from Apple, even chiclet desktop models, had more generous key travel than what I typed on at the store. Why would they go through the trouble redesigning a product to only make it worse? Nothing was stopping them from making their latest desktop keyboard at least as good as their last one. I'm beside myself in disbelief.

 

[russell_314]

And it's obvious to me that Apple has forgotten what a good keyboard is. Typing on the new 2023 Apple Silicon MacBook Pros is like typing on concrete! I'm afraid my next computer after this 2015 Retina MacBook Pro will be another 2015 Retina MacBook Pro. Might as well. They're perfect. Retina screen. Magsafe 2. HDMI. And most of all, a great keyboard!

I think you're in the minority with this opinion. Most reviewers put the MacBook Pro keyboard as the best or near the best laptop keyboard out there. Of course everything can be subjective so what other people like might not be what you like.

 

[257Loner]

I think you're in the minority with this opinion. Most reviewers put the MacBook Pro keyboard as the best or near the best laptop keyboard out there. Of course everything can be subjective so what other people like might not be what you like.

I disagree. Most reviewers with a history of buying MacBook Pros recognize a downward trend in their keyboards' key travel and comfort:

 

[russell_314]

I disagree. Most reviewers with a history of buying MacBook Pros recognize a downward trend in their keyboards' key travel and comfort:

OK this video is talking about desktop keyboards. Unless you want Apple to glue a mechanical gaming keyboard to the top of the MacBook it's not going to happen. It's a laptop keyboard. Yes a gaming keyboard is going to be better.

This is a 3/12 year old video mostly talking about the butterfly keyboard (Yes everyone hated it) and the next iteration. The current keyboard obviously isn't mentioned.

That was some quick Google searching and I'm sure if you try hard enough you'll find a video with someone disliking it. As I said everything is subjective. I just mean MOST people like it and think it's one of the best keyboards.

 

[dmccloud]

Most reviews I've seen since Apple ditched the butterfly keyboards have raved about the improved feel of the newer keyboards compared to the butterfly models. As I type this on my 14" Pro, I don't notice any sort of "concrete" feeling to the keyboard. In fact, I find that it has just enough travel and tactile response to make typing on the keyboard enjoyable.

 

[GMShadow]

It amuses me to see you feel the 2012-2015 Retina keyboard was the peak - if you want travel, the older Unibody keyboard was better for that.

 

[Altis]

I think you're in the minority with this opinion. Most reviewers put the MacBook Pro keyboard as the best or near the best laptop keyboard out there. Of course everything can be subjective so what other people like might not be what you like.

Not sure how much value or legitamacy I put in most of those "reviews" by well-rewarded influencers...

Lisa at MobileTechReview is as honest a reviewer as I've ever seen and she described it as "fine", not great but once you get used to it it's "nice".

It's nowhere even remotely the best nor near it. I'd also describe it as "fine" or "servicable" but that's about it. At least it isn't as brutally short-travel or flawed as the butterfly keyboards, and I like that the touchbar is gone in lieu of a full-size function row. Would be nice to have full-size arrows too.

It amuses me to see you feel the 2012-2015 Retina keyboard was the peak - if you want travel, the older Unibody keyboard was better for that.

Those late 2000's MacBooks, even the white plastic ones, had very nice keyboards indeed.

 

[257Loner]

It amuses me to see you feel the 2012-2015 Retina keyboard was the peak - if you want travel, the older Unibody keyboard was better for that.

You're right. The older Unibody keyboard had even more travel, which I know from personal experience. However, if I was to replace my Retina MacBook Pro, it would be with a similar model since it weighs an entire pound less than the older unibody MacBook Pro. It's remarkable how keyboards have consistently gotten worse. The Retina had the last good one.

 

[russell_314]

Not sure how much value or legitamacy I put in most of those "reviews" by well-rewarded influencers...

Lisa at MobileTechReview is as honest a reviewer as I've ever seen and she described it as "fine", not great but once you get used to it it's "nice".

It's nowhere even remotely the best nor near it. I'd also describe it as "fine" or "servicable" but that's about it. At least it isn't as brutally short-travel or flawed as the butterfly keyboards, and I like that the touchbar is gone in lieu of a full-size function row. Would be nice to have full-size arrows too.


Those late 2000's MacBooks, even the white plastic ones, had very nice keyboards indeed.

Like I said, if you search hard enough you can find someone that says something different, but most reviews say the Apple keyboard is either the best, or among the best for a laptop keyboard.

You question the legitimacy of reviews that say the keyboard is good but then you mention one that says it's bad. Why aren't you questioning the legitimacy of that review? I mean you can't just question the ones you disagree with. Well you can but it seems silly. I don't think there's some big conspiracy where reviewers are saying the keyboard is good or bad. I think it's just some people like it and others don't.

Seriously you don't need a review to tell you if it's good for you. A review is good as a baseline but if you physically touched the keyboard and feel like it's terrible, then it's terrible. I can't argue with that because it's what you need and want, and maybe it's not that. This is why everyone likes different things. I can think something is great and you can think it's terrible and we're both right. Believe it or not, some people absolutely loved the butterfly keyboard. I can't comment on it because I've never had a laptop with one, but some people swear that it's the best keyboard they've ever used in their life.

 

[257Loner]

Like I said, if you search hard enough you can find someone that says something different, but most reviews say the Apple keyboard is either the best, or among the best for a laptop keyboard.

You question the legitimacy of reviews that say the keyboard is good but then you mention one that says it's bad. Why aren't you questioning the legitimacy of that review? I mean you can't just question the ones you disagree with. Well you can but it seems silly. I don't think there's some big conspiracy where reviewers are saying the keyboard is good or bad. I think it's just some people like it and others don't.

Seriously you don't need a review to tell you if it's good for you. A review is good as a baseline but if you physically touched the keyboard and feel like it's terrible, then it's terrible. I can't argue with that because it's what you need and want, and maybe it's not that. This is why everyone likes different things. I can think something is great and you can think it's terrible and we're both right. Believe it or not, some people absolutely loved the butterfly keyboard. I can't comment on it because I've never had a laptop with one, but some people swear that it's the best keyboard they've ever used in their life.

If there are no standards of excellence in keyboards that we can agree upon, then it will not be possible for us to discuss the progress or regress of excellence in keyboards. For example, if I said sitting in a comfy chair is preferable to sitting on a rock, but you said "everyone likes different things; some people like sitting on rocks", then there would be no agreed-upon standard of comfort we could discuss among seating options.

Luckily, keyboards are easy to review. One standard of excellence in keyboards is key travel. Comfortable keyboards have more of it. Uncomfortable keyboards have less of it. Apple's keyboards have less and less lately, and therefore are worse. If you want a more comfortable keyboard, Apple's newest keyboards, objectively, ain't got none.

 

[wilberforce]

I used to work with a guy that carted around an old IBM mechanical keyboard and refused to use anything else (and that he pried the Caps Lock key off, which I guess is a practical way to disable Caps Lock). It was anachronistic listening to him clattering away every day.

I agree the 2015 MBP keyboard was great (I had one), but the new MBP keyboards are pretty good, and sometimes one just has to move on and adapt.

 

[G5isAlive]

And it's obvious to me that Apple has forgotten what a good keyboard is. Typing on the new 2023 Apple Silicon MacBook Pros is like typing on concrete! I'm afraid my next computer after this 2015 Retina MacBook Pro will be another 2015 Retina MacBook Pro. Might as well. They're perfect. Retina screen. Magsafe 2. HDMI. And most of all, a great keyboard!

What also surprised me while I was at the Apple Store was that Apple's desktop keyboards are also stiff, with shallow key travel. There's no reason for that! A desktop keyboard's case can accommodate as generous a key travel as the designer wants. Moreover, previous desktop keyboards from Apple, even chiclet desktop models, had more generous key travel than what I typed on at the store. Why would they go through the trouble redesigning a product to only make it worse? Nothing was stopping them from making their latest desktop keyboard at least as good as their last one. I'm beside myself in disbelief.

Or maybe, just maybe, you are so used to a 8 year old keyboard you just can’t get past it in the 5 minutes you tried out what was in the store? Sorry you lost me when you started whining about the desktop apple keyboards. Who cares? Especially if you see no reason to upgrade an 8 year old computer, spring an extra $150 for whatever 3rd party keyboard matches your electric typewriter.

 

[MacProFCP]

What also surprised me while I was at the Apple Store was that Apple's desktop keyboards are also stiff, with shallow key travel. There's no reason for that! A desktop keyboard's case can accommodate as generous a key travel as the designer wants. Moreover, previous desktop keyboards from Apple, even chiclet desktop models, had more generous key travel than what I typed on at the store. Why would they go through the trouble redesigning a product to only make it worse? Nothing was stopping them from making their latest desktop keyboard at least as good as their last one. I'm beside myself in disbelief.

Personally I love the Apple keyboard. I find that the traditional keyboards, with long strokes, require more effort, albeit slight. I only really notice the difference when using another keyboard. The Apple mice have always been terrible, and though I genuinely tried other keyboards to match my mouse, I always return to Apple.

It’s just a personal preference. If you don’t like the Apple keyboard, get a different brand.

Regarding the laptops, most people are very happy since the move back to the traditional scissor style.

 

[v0lume4]

In your defense OP, I believe the older MacBooks had over 1mm of key travel (though I'm finding conflicting numbers online -- 1.3mm to 1.8mm). The butterfly keyboards were generally (near-universally?) ill-liked, and those had 0.5mm of travel. When Apple reversed course and brought back the scissor keyboards, everyone praised the travel distance because it was so much greater than the butterfly keyboards -- but it still was only 1mm. So, yes, based on the research I've done, the new scissor keyboards do indeed have a shorter travel than the glorious old scissor keyboard. Because you are coming from a pre-butterfly keyboard, that's probably why you're able to notice compared to the folks coming from the butterfly keyboards.

edit - corrected old MacBook keyboard travel numbers

 

[ghostface147]

I picked up an M2 16” MB Pro and the keyboard will take some getting used to. Very clicky and springy and I make tons of mistakes daily with it. It’s also loud. I loved the butterfly keyboard and type much faster with it. Never had an issue with it. It was a 2018 15” MB Pro.

 

[russell_314]

For example, if I said sitting in a comfy chair is preferable to sitting on a rock, but you said "everyone likes different things; some people like sitting on rocks", then there would be no agreed-upon standard of comfort we could discuss among seating options.

There are standards. The problem is you're pointing to what the standards of most people say is comfy chair and saying it's a rock. If the chair is not comfortable yet to you, then that's understandable but it's a comfy chair for most people. Sometimes it's difficult for people to understand that others like things that they dislike. Sometimes the majority of people will like something you dislike. That's okay. You have to buy what you like even though others might not like the same.

 

[T Coma]

I have a new 16” MBP, and a 2009 13” MBP. I prefer the 2009 keyboard to the 2021. I also have a 27” imac and that Magic Keyboard fits somewhere in the middle.

Some of The new keys already have “shiny spots” which do not clean off, and now look like they have a lot of miles on them. The ‘09 keys show no apparent wear, and feel more comfortable. While I wouldn’t say the new ones feel like concrete, they are hard plastic and perhaps not as forgiving on the fingers. While I don’t think these keys are terrible, I do believe that Apple could have done a much better job.

 

[v0lume4]

I have a new 16” MBP, and a 2009 13” MBP. I prefer the 2009 keyboard to the 2021. I also have a 27” imac and that Magic Keyboard fits somewhere in the middle.

Some of The new keys already have “shiny spots” which do not clean off, and now look like they have a lot of miles on them. The ‘09 keys show no apparent wear, and feel more comfortable. While I wouldn’t say the new ones feel like concrete, they are hard plastic and perhaps not as forgiving on the fingers. While I don’t think these keys are terrible, I do believe that Apple could have done a much better job.

So the new keyboards do not get the Hunter stamp of approval? 😂

 

[Tesla1856]

And it's obvious to me that Apple has forgotten what a good keyboard is. Typing on the new 2023 Apple Silicon MacBook Pros is like typing on concrete! I'm afraid my next computer after this 2015 Retina MacBook Pro will be another 2015 Retina MacBook Pro. Might as well. They're perfect. Retina screen. Magsafe 2. HDMI. And most of all, a great keyboard!

Oh no.

I always thought it would be cool to pickup a (nice condition, with a warranty) 13-inch MacBook Pro from OWC. Thing is, with the keyboard fiasco of years past ... I was going to have to research which ones to stay away from (there was apparently multiple "bad" years).

But now, the old Intel laptops aren't as appealing all of a sudden, but I assumed the new MacBook-Pros with the M-chips and 5th gen (or whatever is latest) keyboards were the best ones yet. I heard all that was behind them.

If they went bad again, I'm guessing it's this quest to be thinner or form-over-function.

 

[Tesla1856]

Some of The new keys already have “shiny spots” which do not clean off, and now look like they have a lot of miles on them. The ‘09 keys show no apparent wear, and feel more comfortable.

Yeah, what passes for plastic, glass, and rubberized-coating now-days is pretty sad.

I've got some newer tools, computing-devices, and flash-drives that are pretty much unusable because their outer coverings are dissolving. I like tech, but seems I just can't get rid of stuff quick enough to fit into this disposable society.

\end rant

 

[Altis]

Like I said, if you search hard enough you can find someone that says something different, but most reviews say the Apple keyboard is either the best, or among the best for a laptop keyboard.

You question the legitimacy of reviews that say the keyboard is good but then you mention one that says it's bad. Why aren't you questioning the legitimacy of that review? I mean you can't just question the ones you disagree with. Well you can but it seems silly. I don't think there's some big conspiracy where reviewers are saying the keyboard is good or bad. I think it's just some people like it and others don't.

I've followed Lisa's channel for many years now and her detailed reviews have always come across as incredibly impartial -- a sentiment I think most agree with. They match up with my own experience when I try the reviewed item. She discusses the key travel and overall feel in a way that I think is extremely accurate. It's helpful for those who can't try before they buy.

But really... The new MBs have "the best or one of the best" laptop keyboards? It's servicable and you get used to it, but is it even better than average? There's nothing notable about it other than its very low travel. Lenovo, HP, Dell all seem to have keyboards at least as good in some of their laptops.

Seriously you don't need a review to tell you if it's good for you. A review is good as a baseline but if you physically touched the keyboard and feel like it's terrible, then it's terrible. I can't argue with that because it's what you need and want, and maybe it's not that. This is why everyone likes different things. I can think something is great and you can think it's terrible and we're both right. Believe it or not, some people absolutely loved the butterfly keyboard. I can't comment on it because I've never had a laptop with one, but some people swear that it's the best keyboard they've ever used in their life.

It's fine that some liked it -- but exceptions don't make for great buying advice (especially first-gen butterfly). Most seemed to find it anywhere from acceptable to shallow, dull, loud, and unreliable.

But then what we're really saying is that there can't even be a "best keyboard" since there's no way to measure such a thing... which is true, but trivial.

Oddly enough, my favorite desktop keyboard is one that probably very few people would really like, but I would describe it as an "acquired taste / not for everybody".

 

[mectojic]

And it's obvious to me that Apple has forgotten what a good keyboard is. Typing on the new 2023 Apple Silicon MacBook Pros is like typing on concrete! I'm afraid my next computer after this 2015 Retina MacBook Pro will be another 2015 Retina MacBook Pro. Might as well. They're perfect. Retina screen. Magsafe 2. HDMI. And most of all, a great keyboard!

I think 100% everyone will agree that the M1/M2 keyboards are better than the Butterfly before it.

But those who used the unibody keyboards from 2008-2015 will realise they were even better.

But those who used the aluminium PowerBook and MacBook keyboards from 2003-2006 prefer those more.

Personally, my favourite has to be the G3 iBook and Pismo Powerbook keyboards.

But don't expect most people to know what quality is, these days.

 

[doolar]

As an owner and user of two M1 Macs, one Air and one 14” Pro, I have to say that these keyboards are among the best Apple ever released on a notebook at least since my first Mac laptop, which was a Pismo bought in 2000, some 23 years ago.

I have not a single complaint really.