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mroatman

macrumors newbie
Oct 6, 2013
6
0
My understanding was the that iPhone 5c did not use the same "updated" component as the 5s…and yet it still has gyroscope issues. Strange. Makes me wonder if the Gizmodo article (while an interesting read) is actually correct in their finger pointing.

Can anyone confirm this behavior on an iPad running iOS 7.0.2?

----------

And now, the word spreads…

http://appleinsider.com/articles/13...s-may-be-linked-to-new-accelerometer-supplier

http://gigaom.com/2013/10/16/iphone-5s-teardown-might-explain-accelerometer-issues/

http://www.todaysiphone.com/2013/10...e-to-blame-for-inaccurate-iphone-5s-readings/

http://www.ubergizmo.com/2013/10/iphone-5s-motion-sensor-problem-could-be-hardware-related-afterall/

http://isource.com/2013/10/16/iphone-5s-gyrogate/
 

Morac

macrumors 68020
Dec 30, 2009
2,172
611
iPhone 5s accelerometer/gyroscope/compass values incorrect

My understanding was the that iPhone 5c did not use the same "updated" component as the 5s…and yet it still has gyroscope issues. Strange. Makes me wonder if the Gizmodo article (while an interesting read) is actually correct in their finger pointing.

Can anyone confirm this behavior on an iPad running iOS 7.0.2?

I don't think the components of the iPhone 5C were ever specified, other than the 5C has the same camera and circuit board as the 5S, but the same processor as the 5.

There is no compass app on the iPad, but my iPad 2 does not have the problem with 3rd party apps.
 

nanocustoms

macrumors regular
Jun 23, 2010
158
29
My theory is that the calibration procedure is not using the correct offset range for the Bosch sensor during the calibration procedure.

It's like the quote below but instead of a 6 inch offset (that's needed) the iPhone is using a 2 inch.

For people who are confused on variance vs bias, here's an analogy.

Say you need to measure something in inches (or centimeters), but you only have a ruler that has foot (meter) markers. That would be variance which is pretty much unfixable as it's not possible to get an accurate measurement. Now say you need to measure the same thing and you have a ruler that has inch markers, but it starts at say 6 instead of 0. You can still accurately measure, if you know to subtract 6 from whatever result you get. That's bias.

Now say you have millions of rulers and each start at a different number. The rulers can all be fixed by adjusting for the offset, but the since the offsets are not the same, the rulers will need to be calibrated individually.

That's a simplified version of the position Apple is in. Except instead of having one ruler per device, there's 5. Apple just needs to build an interface that allows individual calibration. It really isn't that hard to do, they just have to actually do it without admitting there's actually a problem.
 

asleep

macrumors 68040
Sep 26, 2007
3,687
1,574
So it's a hardware issue but they're trying to cobble together a software compensation for it???
...as it turns out, it might be a hardware problem, at least according to RealityCap CEO, Eagle Jones. According to Jones, he notes that this is thanks to the use of new hardware in the iPhone 5s.

Previously Apple had relied on STMicroelectronics to supply their accelerometers, but with the iPhone 5s, Apple had turned to Bosch, whose component has been noted to have a higher bias which makes it consistent with the inaccurate readings that iPhone 5s users are experiencing on their devices. Jones notes that this could have resolved from the start if Apple had calibrated it at the factory, but did not for whatever reason. As it stands RealityCap is working on code for developers that will help address the issue, but naturally a fix by Apple would be a better long-term solution.
 

richard371

macrumors 68040
Feb 1, 2008
3,610
1,802
It's a calibration issue. Lots of things in life need calibrating. Guitars, pianos, mechanical watches, aircraft instruments.

The apps on my 5S that let me calibrate via the app work just as good as they did before on my previous iPhones. We just want these devices calibrated globally so we don't have to keep doing it in the many apps every time we launch them or worse have to rely on developers to even include this function..

Yes it stinks Apple went with a less sensitive sensor but its the calibration that is the problem here. If they were calibrated properly this would probably have never been an issue.

The million dollar question is wether or not Apple does anything about it.


BTW I have this app called seismometer thats uses the accelerometer only. I have had this app for years and it is just as sensitive on my 5S as any previous iPhone. Even the slightest taps on the desk it records. It proves to me that the lower quality accelerometer is fine. I just want the dang thing to know where down is and not be a constant 3 degrees off on its back and long side.


So it's a hardware issue but they're trying to cobble together a software compensation for it???
 
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SPoon222222

macrumors newbie
Oct 9, 2013
16
1
I just read the article after my post. But if after reading the post here and I saw that all of a sudden people started receiving phones with no problem then I would run to exchange for a newer build date. That has not been the case. I get that you spend a lot for an iPhone, but price does not mean better or perfect. Too many people are just getting carried away with exchanges and in the long run consumers will be affected.

I get where you are coming from, but every person has their own personal reasons why they requested an exchange whether it is regarding this issue or not. Yes, I had this issue on my previous phone, but that was not 100% of the reason I asked for a replacement. There was a cosmetic issue as well so I tried my luck of the draw to kill two birds with one stone so to speak. Unfortunately, the only issue that got resolved was the cosmetic issue and slightly better values for the level. I work in the mobile industry so I get what you are saying. If the consumer feels unsatisfied with a product I still feel that they are entitled to a refund or exchange to a certain degree.
 

springsup

macrumors 65816
Feb 14, 2013
1,228
1,224
So it's a hardware issue but they're trying to cobble together a software compensation for it???

This sounds somewhat impure, but in reality you'd be amazed at just how much of this goes on.

I once had a job writing graphics drivers for a big GPU vendor. There were plenty of cases of software compensating for "misbehaving" hardware. Making a device like this is extremely complex, and hardware engineers have a much tighter schedule (due to the need to mass produce). They've also got to fit extended testing time in to that schedule because you can't patch the hardware once it's shipped.

The result is that a few hardware bugs will slip through, and software will need to alleviate it as best it can.
 

Morac

macrumors 68020
Dec 30, 2009
2,172
611
iPhone 5s accelerometer/gyroscope/compass values incorrect

The result is that a few hardware bugs will slip through, and software will need to alleviate it as best it can.

The thing is, if the speculation is correct, this isn't a hardware bug. The hardware is working within the specified parameters, it's just that the Apple engineers apparently never read the specs of the hardware. I agree it can be fixed in software, but it's not a bug, it's a design flaw.

It's akin to purposely installing a 3 amp fuse and then being surprised it blows when it's hooked up to a component that draws 5 amps.
 

WilliamG

macrumors G3
Mar 29, 2008
9,926
3,802
Seattle
The thing is, if the speculation is correct, this isn't a hardware bug. The hardware is working within the specified parameters, it's just that the Apple engineers apparently never read the specs of the hardware. I agree it can be fixed in software, but it's not a bug, it's a design flaw.

It's akin to purposely installing a 3 amp fuse and then being surprised it blows when it's hooked up to a component that draws 5 amps.

The chances of Apple ever fixing it grow slimmer every day. Especially since a system-wide calibration option is never going to appear. It's very not Apple...
 

alFR

macrumors 68030
Aug 10, 2006
2,834
1,069
The hardware is working within the specified parameters, it's just that the Apple engineers apparently never read the specs of the hardware.

Do you really think that's true? The biggest consumer electronics company in the world and no-one read the hardware specs of a component that was going into their flagship product? Seriously? Isn't it much more likely that it's an iOS7 bug e.g. the OS not reading the factory-embedded calibration info correctly as suggested by a dev earlier in this thread?

The chances of Apple ever fixing it grow slimmer every day. Especially since a system-wide calibration option is never going to appear. It's very not Apple...

No-one here knows whether that will happen or not. Wait and see, or if you're really worried return it for a refund then wait and see.
 

WilliamG

macrumors G3
Mar 29, 2008
9,926
3,802
Seattle
No-one here knows whether that will happen or not. Wait and see, or if you're really worried return it for a refund then wait and see.

I can pretty much guarantee it won't happen as a new System option. Has Apple ever, EVER done anything like that in the past? Nope. I don't see them starting now.
 

Mercenary

macrumors 65816
Sep 17, 2012
1,241
626
For those hoping apple will fix this in the factory and are waiting... DONT!

Apple have never done that when a fault it found. It's an admission of guilt and will open them up to a lot of returns.

Just buy the phone and enjoy it as the rest if us have.
 

cdmoore74

macrumors 68020
Jun 24, 2010
2,413
711
I think we can all agree that swapping out phone after phone is useless at this point. As long as Apple uses the inferior Bosch unit in the 5s each device will not match the accuracy of the older ST part. To implement a hardware change now after millions of 5s units sold is not a good look. The only reasonable possibility is a software update to fine tune the calibration of the newer chip. Apple would have to make this almost invisible to the end user which will be interesting to see.
 

Khedron

Suspended
Sep 27, 2013
2,561
5,755
For those hoping apple will fix this in the factory and are waiting... DONT!

Apple have never done that when a fault it found. It's an admission of guilt and will open them up to a lot of returns.

Just buy the phone and enjoy it as the rest if us have.

So the phone's new feature, M7, is broken and you still want us to buy the phone at full price. Do you own a lot of Apple stock?
 

UncleGuido

macrumors member
Oct 12, 2013
51
30
I can pretty much guarantee it won't happen as a new System option. Has Apple ever, EVER done anything like that in the past? Nope. I don't see them starting now.

Early Macs did not have screen calibration functions. They added it as an optional feature. Users who did not need it, or did not understand it, could ignore it. Early versions of iTunes did not have some of the playback customization features (Sound Check, Sound Enhancer) that were added later. Features were added to the Sharing and Firewall features in response to various concerns and problems. There are lots of other examples.

Apple may be reluctant to come forward with an admission of fault ("Oops, we screwed up"). That's bad publicity, and might open up possibilities for lawsuits. Their preferred solution would be to ship a fix as an undocumented change in a future version of iOS, something that did a silent automatic calibration without user intervention. Considering what's needed to properly generate a system-wide calibration of the accelerometer chip, I doubt that an automatic fix is possible. But they could provide a new feature in the Compass or Settings app, a user-run calibration procedure, similar to what is offered in the Clinometer app. They could document it as an "enhancement", an optional procedure for those users who needed extra accuracy for orientation measurements.
 

alFR

macrumors 68030
Aug 10, 2006
2,834
1,069
So the phone's new feature, M7, is broken and you still want us to buy the phone at full price. Do you own a lot of Apple stock?

By all accounts (e.g. the Gizmodo article) this is a sensor problem, not a M7 problem. If you're worried about it not getting fixed, don't buy one or return yours for a refund: otherwise wait and see. There really isn't anything else sensible to do at this point.
 

cdmoore74

macrumors 68020
Jun 24, 2010
2,413
711
It will also be interesting if Apple uses the same Bosch chip in the new iPads. Maybe by then iOS will be updated to compensate for this issue. Or the problem will repeat itself.
 

Bazooka-joe

macrumors 603
Mar 12, 2012
5,224
3,617
Swindon, England
It will also be interesting if Apple uses the same Bosch chip in the new iPads. Maybe by then iOS will be updated to compensate for this issue. Or the problem will repeat itself.

Well that's what I was interested in. Surely they wouldn't market new iPads knowing full well that there was an issue. I reckon they will have a fix in 7.1 which is why 7.0.3 hasn't been released.
 

WilliamG

macrumors G3
Mar 29, 2008
9,926
3,802
Seattle
Early Macs did not have screen calibration functions. They added it as an optional feature. Users who did not need it, or did not understand it, could ignore it. Early versions of iTunes did not have some of the playback customization features (Sound Check, Sound Enhancer) that were added later. Features were added to the Sharing and Firewall features in response to various concerns and problems. There are lots of other examples.

Apple may be reluctant to come forward with an admission of fault ("Oops, we screwed up"). That's bad publicity, and might open up possibilities for lawsuits. Their preferred solution would be to ship a fix as an undocumented change in a future version of iOS, something that did a silent automatic calibration without user intervention. Considering what's needed to properly generate a system-wide calibration of the accelerometer chip, I doubt that an automatic fix is possible. But they could provide a new feature in the Compass or Settings app, a user-run calibration procedure, similar to what is offered in the Clinometer app. They could document it as an "enhancement", an optional procedure for those users who needed extra accuracy for orientation measurements.

No chance. A software piece for Macs is very different than for phones. The iPhone just 'works.' This kind of software would imply it doesn't. I just don't see it happening.
 

leafspring

macrumors newbie
Oct 8, 2013
10
0
That really sucks, I hope it's not true...:(
Actually I hope it is true cause it means that every phone has a constant bias than can be corrected by software. An iOS7 patch would simply need to add a core calibration that takes care of it and any app using the M7 data would get correct values.

I'm more concerned about the fact that the accuracy of the 6-bit output of the sensor isn't nearly enough to provide accurate readings. How does an accelerometer show 1° changes in phone position when the smallest possible change in output is 4°?
 

Khedron

Suspended
Sep 27, 2013
2,561
5,755
By all accounts (e.g. the Gizmodo article) this is a sensor problem, not a M7 problem. If you're worried about it not getting fixed, don't buy one or return yours for a refund: otherwise wait and see. There really isn't anything else sensible to do at this point.

This is what I am doing.

The M7 is useless since the whole point is low-power sensor readings. Either the readings are junk because they are uncalibrated (this is consistent with inaccurate results from the first fitness apps which try to use it) or the low-power aspect of it is lost because you need additional post-processing of the data to correct for the calibration error.

----------

Actually I hope it is true cause it means that every phone has a constant bias than can be corrected by software. An iOS7 patch would simply need to add a core calibration that takes care of it and any app using the M7 data would get correct values.

I'm more concerned about the fact that the accuracy of the 6-bit output of the sensor isn't nearly enough to provide accurate readings. How does an accelerometer show 1° changes in phone position when the smallest possible change in output is 4°?

The M7 data being corrected requires Apple to do a low-level calibration. It seems they are not going to do it because it is against their design philosophy. Instead they will make each app do their own calibration and the M7 will remain useless.
 

E1Geoff

macrumors newbie
Sep 26, 2013
20
0
Because I'm interested in these things I've put in a bit of time to get my thoughts down on the problem from a purely academic point of view and thought some people may be interested to see what I have put down, for those that aren't feel free to skip over it.

To assess the orientation of the phone, the processor receives the triaxial data from the accelerometer, and resolves the acceleration data measured on each axis.

When the phone is perfectly horizontal as shown below (assuming the axis of the accelerometer are perfectly aligned to the phone) there should be no acceleration measured in the z axis, and a full 1g acceleration measured in the y axis.

Please note - where I have used the term sensor values related to measurements of g, obviously these values are processed based on raw electrical data output from the sensor, however for the sake of clarity of point I will continue referring to the sensor values in g.



If the phone is rotated around the x-axis (into the page/screen) y gets smaller and z gets larger, until they are equal. At this point, when y = z, the angle of rotation is 45°, past that point z gets larger as y gets smaller until z = 1g and y = 0g, at this point the angle is 90°.



If the sensor has a resolution of 0.0625g between a range of ±2g (as per the new Bosch accelerometer), as the phone is rotated around the x-axis the next step that the accelerometer will pick up after y = 1g and z = 0g will be y = 0.9375g and z = 0.0625g. The angle of the phone is calculated based on the values of y and z using trigonometry. The size of the measurement step (sensor resolution) determines the angular resolution of the sensor, following processing of the raw data. Below is a table comparing the resolutions of the ST and Bosch sensors. It would seem the ST sensor resolution is massively overkill, but the Bosch sensor is about 1000 times less precise - going completely the other way.



That is the first, and more concerning problem as others have mentioned - as was said, how can the phone display increments of 1° when the sensor can only resolve changes of 3.8°………. The only posibility is that the gyroscope is used to assess the motion of the phone within the angular steps that the accelerometer can measure - fairly complex from a programming point of view, but possible I think.

The other issue is the fact that when set flat, the 5S does seem to believe it is inclined anywhere between 2 and 6 degrees. This could well be because the accelerometer is not in fact orientated correctly in the phone as shown below.



It has been mentioned that the zero g offset difference between the 2 sensors could be the cause of the problem. But I am not sure this is the case. In terms of the inclinometer output, it doesn’t matter what the absolute g value measured is, simply that when the phone is flat, only 1 axis is measuring any acceleration. For example as long as the z axis has a value of 0g, it doesn't matter if y is measuring 0.2g or 20g, the trigonometry will output a 0 value for the angle. However, if apple haven't accounted for the extra offset of the Bosch sensor and continued to use the ST sensor offset, then the software could think z is measuring an acceleration when it isn't.

If it is simply an orientation problem, then it should be a simple case of low level recalibration in the OS as others have said, obviously the complication being where different phones seem to have the problem to different degrees. The only accurate way to do it would be to allow individual calibration of the phone. If the offset is the problem, this should be fixable by a more 'blanket' solution, assuming the sensors are all within spec.
 
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