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nanofrog

macrumors G4
May 6, 2008
11,719
3
I agree with all your points nanofrog. However, on Point #1 about the increasing prices in Intel CPUs in adding cores, coupled with Apple's outrageous margins..... Apple are already making huge margins on all of their products. Some more than others, like the iPad which brings them an almost 50% margin. And that margin doesn't change when economies of scale kick in on the assembly line and manufacturing costs decline.

My point is, with so many new products bringing in large margins, surely they could accept a more reasonable margin on the Mac Pro and not leave the Mac Pro community out in the wind to twist.
I'm basing it off of the final price (actually production costs * 1.x, x = margin). 40% on a small number is easier to swallow than 40% on a much more expensive item to produce. If the MP's were substantially less expensive, it would help push sales. Now whether or not that generates the largest pile of cash (profit), depends on the specifics (quantity sold * profit per unit). And we know Apple is greedy... :eek: :p

In the case of the portable device market, the sales numbers are massive, and even though the price is lower, is still generating a much larger portion of Apple's total profits per unit time than the MP + XServe.

I agree they could do what you describe with the MP's, but as they don't publish the exact sales numbers of the MP and XServe, it's hard to say what's truly viable, as they won't take a loss (or even be willing to accept break even IMO). Shareholders are just too conditioned for high margins given the recent quarterlys. Ultimately, they seem to have shoved the MP to the absolute bottom of the developement pile (well, maybe just above the :apple:TV). :p Human resources are limited, so they start with the most profitable segments first, and move down. New products and delays are increasing the cycle times of the MP and XServe lines. As they've not hired additional people (they certainly have the cash), this lends me to think they're contemplating it's continued developement all together (assuming they don't have their heads up... in terms of being able to see/predict what's happening in the industry in terms of workstations and determine if they're going to remain a part of it or not).
 

xgman

macrumors 603
Aug 6, 2007
5,674
1,380
Quite frankly I just wish they would license OSX to pc makers and be done with it. Then we could upgrade on our schedule and not theirs. At least PC makers tell you in advance what they are getting ready to come out with.
 

shabbasuraj

macrumors regular
Mar 13, 2004
143
22
Hi guys,

I know this has been discussed to death, but I am looking to get a new Mac Pro and don't really want to buy as yet because of the imminent refresh.

Could someone please supply the latest rumour info of as to when these are likely to be updated.

Also will the new Mac Pro be likely to be a major leap in performance compared to the current one? and what about the price? are they likely to go up?

Many thanks.

Further proof with the announcements today that the MacPro will be EOL'ed.

So buy whatever you want now.. 'cause by this time next year they are GONE.
 

nanofrog

macrumors G4
May 6, 2008
11,719
3
Quite frankly I just wish they would license OSX to pc makers and be done with it. Then we could upgrade on our schedule and not theirs. At least PC makers tell you in advance what they are getting ready to come out with.
It's possible, and if they end up in a portable device only company, has practical implementations for them (the ability to continue to develop the device versions).

But as long as they've something they have that can be used (i.e. iMacs are still generate acceptable profit margins), not likely as it would kill the iMac sales.
 

nanofrog

macrumors G4
May 6, 2008
11,719
3
Further proof with the announcements today that the MacPro will be EOL'ed.

So buy whatever you want now.. 'cause by this time next year they are GONE.
What are you basing this on?

There's still upcomming parts that can be used for a couple of years yet. 2014 OTOH, looks to be another story (Xeon lines). At that point, there is the possibility they could resort to using high end/enthusiast desktop parts. But at that point, they could dump it in favor of a LightPeak equiped iMac to take it's place. Not a traditional workstation in terms of Xeon branding and ECC memory, but Intel's newer parts in the pipeline are aimed at this (otherwise, the parts are the same, just no ECC capabilities). They could even add that, and brand it differently (not under the Xeon moniker).

Just other makers will likely offer them in systems that actually have PCIe slots. ;) :p
 

nanofrog

macrumors G4
May 6, 2008
11,719
3
Yeah and what are they going to develop all that technology on?
They could license OS X, but that won't happen as long as they've profitable desktop system market as it would destroy those sales in one fell swoop.

But if they ever discontinue the iMac and Mini, then it's a possibility (really a necessity) in order to have their own OS to develop the portable versions on.

Not in the next few years at any rate. They'd switch to the iMac (LightPeak equiped) as a development platform if the MP/XServe do go way of the Dodo.
 

ildondeigiocchi

macrumors 6502a
Dec 30, 2007
695
0
Montreal
Yeah and what are they going to develop all that technology on?

I completely agree with you. All Mac software is developed using Mac Pros so I doubt that Apple is gonna drop the product line. However, I do think it's about time they wake up and start paying attention to Mac users needs because if weren't all pro users Apple wouldn't be standing here today. It's thanks to our loyalty that they've reached so much success as a company. I love Apple because of their quality products, it's just that their pricing for the Mac Pro has gotten out of hand and seriously, it's about time they update it. HP and Dell are ahead of them with the new Xeon chips! Come on Apple, release a Mac Pro ASAP. :D
 

shabbasuraj

macrumors regular
Mar 13, 2004
143
22
Yeah and what are they going to develop all that technology on?

Seems like there is a real and direct movement towards their "all in one" iMac... and perhaps eventually cloud computing.

The iMac is the strongest and fastest. period.

Seriously, Apple has neglected the pro ranks (on purpose, perhaps?)

Apple has diverted 10.7 resources to iPhone 4.0

Apple makes more cash in 1 hour of selling iphones then they probably do selling pro hardware in a month.

Just a revenue stream thing..

Pro's everywhere are doing the hackintosh thing, mainly they need the power.


Nothing personal.


So ya, MacPro's are EOL'ed, either it is done officially, or not. MacPros are and have been regulated to the proverbial backburner pretty much since the iPhone was released.

No other group of Apple die hards feel as shunned by the company than the Creative Pros.

Think about the spat between Adobe/flash and Steve... these creative pro's just continually shake their heads everytime they fire up CS4/5.






.
.

.





(.........allegedly)
 

Umbongo

macrumors 601
Sep 14, 2006
4,934
55
England
Seems like there is a real and direct movement towards their "all in one" iMac... and perhaps eventually cloud computing.

The iMac is the strongest and fastest. period.

Seriously, Apple has neglected the pro ranks (on purpose, perhaps?)

The 2.8GHz quad iMac has a slightly faster processor than the base Mac Pro, it can't compete on graphics, IO or memory performance, nor does it have expandability. It can't compete with the processor upgrades available on the Mac Pro.

There are so many threads on this forum saying the Mac Pros neglected etc, yet Apple have had the same behaviour towards it since 2006 aside from a pricing change. Intel have major updates to processors and within a couple of months Apple launch new Mac Pros. There is no evidence anything has changed.

Apple are about the complete solution, not just in the form of a single device but for someone's whole interaction with technology. Desktop computers are still very much apart of that.
 

shabbasuraj

macrumors regular
Mar 13, 2004
143
22
The 2.8GHz quad iMac has a slightly faster processor than the base Mac Pro, it can't compete on graphics, IO or memory performance, nor does it have expandability. It can't compete with the processor upgrades available on the Mac Pro.

There are so many threads on this forum saying the Mac Pros neglected etc, yet Apple have had the same behaviour towards it since 2006 aside from a pricing change. Intel have major updates to processors and within a couple of months Apple launch new Mac Pros. There is no evidence anything has changed.

Apple are about the complete solution, not just in the form of a single device but for someone's whole interaction with technology. Desktop computers are still very much apart of that.

True..


My GREAT hope with the move to Intel was that finally, Apple would have a reliable source of chips and thus would follow a SEMI-reasonable pricing adjustment schedule.


....fail.



Basically the current MacSlow line needs a 30-40% price adjustment....



.. no?
 

macusersince5

macrumors member
Mar 13, 2010
65
0
As I will be buying my first mac desktop, already have a 2 year old laptop, I hope they continue to produce the mac pro and release it soon or near WWDC with also 64 bit final cut studio. I am starting to need the raw power, And I want a desktop computer with expandability because I want to hold onto this computer for a while. So please don't discontinue the mac pro's, there are those who still need/want them and have uses for them.
 

Transporteur

macrumors 68030
Nov 30, 2008
2,729
3
UK
The iMac is the strongest and fastest. period.

Very interesting statement! :D

Completely nonsense for the current machines, but as nanofrog said, maybe one day the iMac will be as strong to be considered a workstation (even though it won't use workstation parts any more).
 

nanofrog

macrumors G4
May 6, 2008
11,719
3
However, I do think it's about time they wake up and start paying attention to Mac users needs because if weren't all pro users Apple wouldn't be standing here today.
Customer Loyalty = users dedicated to the manufacturer/brand

Manufacturer Loyalty to the User = Non existant with Apple (Not exactly customer service, but closer to customer support; it's rare in any industry though) :eek:

Seriously. If it gets in the way of the bottom line, it's gone. It's as simple as that, and the workstation market is a very small part of their total net profits per quarter. So it's possible it can happen.

The 2.8GHz quad iMac has a slightly faster processor than the base Mac Pro, it can't compete on graphics, IO or memory performance, nor does it have expandability. It can't compete with the processor upgrades available on the Mac Pro.
Overall, the MP has more to offer in overall performance, especially if the right upgrades are made.

But I see it as less to do with Intel (there are chips that can be used for workstations past 2013), but the market share Apple holds in this segment. We don't have solid numbers, but what is available, doesn't look good. Now combine Intel's price increases in this segment and Apple's margins, they're going to out-price their user base to the point it's no longer financially viable to continue using MP's. The sales numbers will drop to a critical point, and they'll have to pull it. That's not to say they won't try to use an iMac to replace it by leveraging LightPeak for graphics and storage, but it's lacking expansion which is a deal breaker for some at least. Resulting in more pros lost.

My GREAT hope with the move to Intel was that finally, Apple would have a reliable source of chips and thus would follow a SEMI-reasonable pricing adjustment schedule.
They do have a reliable source of CPU's, but the details are in other areas, such as low sales volume, normal development cycles, new products being introduced, and most importantly, a revolving development team. It seems they're cycled from project to project across the entire range of lines (no sub group dedicated to the desktop product range).

Completely nonsense for the current machines, but as nanofrog said, maybe one day the iMac will be as strong to be considered a workstation (even though it won't use workstation parts any more).
An AIO isn't ideal as a workstation, as many need the ability to add upgrades internally, and memory could be a real problem (some need more than what 2GB DIMM's can provide, as 4GB aren't the lowest or second lowest capacity yet). Even LightPeak could be made to bottleneck (even assuming it's real world performance = 10Gb/s <1.25GB/s>), a RAID can exceed that on it's own. Now consider improved graphics would have to use this as well, you see where it's going. That could be mitigated by using dual LightPeak channels, and assuming the final parts meet target cost, is quite doable ($10USD per in parts).

But given their recent products, it seems likely the AIO solution is what will happen from what it appears to me (history + minimal effort & costs).

Perhaps they'd make a new line (the real headless Mac that's been begged for for years), but only if it's able to deliver on desired levels of net profit in that segment. So low cost, not likely if it ever does show, as they'd want to make absolutely certain it won't cut into the iMac's sales, which is back to where we are right now, only with desktop parts (and that happens to be the direction Intel's going). But it all depends on the $$$, and it doesn't look to promising IMO.
 

skiffx

macrumors 6502a
Feb 5, 2008
681
10
Would be cool for somebody actually to go through Apple's Annual Report and see if there is a per product break down of their revenue sources.
 

Umbongo

macrumors 601
Sep 14, 2006
4,934
55
England
Would be cool for somebody actually to go through Apple's Annual Report and see if there is a per product break down of their revenue sources.

They don't publish those numbers, just the number of desktops/laptops sold and the average prices for those two things.
 

Deepshade

macrumors regular
Mar 22, 2010
237
39
If the MacPro range were a serious consideration fro Apple they'd be refreshed by now. Sandy Bridge at end of year makes any release from Apple in the next 6 months seem a little pointless. Does anyone want a 'PRO' computer with a 6 months shelf life?.

Apple and Jobs have shown no sign of respect for the people who put them there in the first place. It's just down to money - if they screw up with Adobe and mess up the lives of a few hundred thousand creatives - what does that matter against the millions of pad, pods, phones, downloads, ads etc.

Maybe they'll save face and put out a token machine (to try to justify the ridiculous prices of the so called top of the range machines). My guess is the days of the MacPro range are numbered. Apple gadgets will take over and any serious, pro user customer loyalty will simply drown in the face of the higher revenue stream.
 

Umbongo

macrumors 601
Sep 14, 2006
4,934
55
England
If the MacPro range were a serious consideration fro Apple they'd be refreshed by now. Sandy Bridge at end of year makes any release from Apple in the next 6 months seem a little pointless. Does anyone want a 'PRO' computer with a 6 months shelf life?.

Apple and Jobs have shown no sign of respect for the people who put them there in the first place. It's just down to money - if they screw up with Adobe and mess up the lives of a few hundred thousand creatives - what does that matter against the millions of pad, pods, phones, downloads, ads etc.

Maybe they'll save face and put out a token machine (to try to justify the ridiculous prices of the so called top of the range machines). My guess is the days of the MacPro range are numbered. Apple gadgets will take over and any serious, pro user customer loyalty will simply drown in the face of the higher revenue stream.

Sandy Bridge DP Xeons aren't likely to be seen in the next 12 months. Anything Apple release will have a year of shelf life.
 

parakiet

macrumors regular
Nov 23, 2008
123
0
if like apple cares?

look at the 2009 mac pro.. if they wanted the mac pro to be ' the latest and best' we all would have been enjoying our mac pro 2010 for a while now.

we want to buy the latest en the best. it's us, not them
 

xgman

macrumors 603
Aug 6, 2007
5,674
1,380
If the MacPro range were a serious consideration fro Apple they'd be refreshed by now.

Not necessarily. Since Apple usually doesn't pre-announce products, they may be waiting on parts and assembly. The new cpus are just now shipping to OEM's in any quantity and one or both of the new vid cards may be slow to convert over to apple specs. Nonetheless, Apple should really announce it's intentions on these things. They are hanging up a lot of professionals right now and creating bad will among many of it's pro loyalists over this.
 

rajbonham

macrumors 6502
Mar 29, 2010
315
0
Not necessarily. Since Apple usually doesn't pre-announce products, they may be waiting on parts and assembly. The new cpus are just now shipping to OEM's in any quantity and one or both of the new vid cards may be slow to convert over to apple specs. Nonetheless, Apple should really announce it's intentions on these things. They are hanging up a lot of professionals right now and creating bad will among many of it's pro loyalists over this.

Excellent post and I couldn't agree more. :) I really think at this time, the CPU's are the holdup. I get the feeling a lot of people don't realize just how recently these new CPU's were released. I'm sure Intel is simply trying to get them to everyone. I feel like we are going to see a huge amount of these CPU's pop up at retailers, etc. in the next 1-2 weeks.

I could be way off, but I seriously think there are a bunch of Mac Pro towers sitting at the factories, missing one component, the CPU's. Once they get those in, I think it's time for the updated Mac Pro.
 

you39

macrumors regular
Mar 21, 2010
157
0
I could be way off, but I seriously think there are a bunch of Mac Pro towers sitting at the factories, missing one component, the CPU's. Once they get those in, I think it's time for the updated Mac Pro.

If that's the case... what do you guys think will be the configurations? Seeing the 13" MacBook Pro updates... and if low chip supply from Intel is the cause for the delay... I've come to wonder if Apple might reserve the next processor generation for the upper models, leaving the base model with the current quad Nehalem, but a little more ram, larger HD, later GPU? What do you think? :confused:
 

nanofrog

macrumors G4
May 6, 2008
11,719
3
Excellent post and I couldn't agree more. :) I really think at this time, the CPU's are the holdup. I get the feeling a lot of people don't realize just how recently these new CPU's were released. I'm sure Intel is simply trying to get them to everyone. I feel like we are going to see a huge amount of these CPU's pop up at retailers, etc. in the next 1-2 weeks.

I could be way off, but I seriously think there are a bunch of Mac Pro towers sitting at the factories, missing one component, the CPU's. Once they get those in, I think it's time for the updated Mac Pro.
There's another possiblility as well.

Theoretically, all that's needed to make the existing boards to work with the new CPUID's, is updated microcode. And this has been the case with some boards from other vendors.

But there are also some that have needed to have the board modified slightly. Specifically, the CPU Voltage Regulator has required different resistor/s to achieve the value necessary to function within Intel's voltage spec (previous parts couldn't go low enough for the new CPU's, but are fine for the Nehalem parts). Ultimately, it depends on the exact parts used to construct the VR's, and why some boards need this, while others don't.

So it's possible that the boards have had to go back for PCB rework to swap out resistors to get the VR's functional. That takes time, and could create the delay.

And since it's just a part or two, is financially valid (cheaper than all new boards), especially if there's a stock pile (on the expectation that the previous board design would be able to accept the new chips as-is).

This sort of thing does happen.
 
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