PowerBook G5 with Liquid Cooling

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by CMillerERAU
I wonder if they'd use water or something that is more cooling like freon, then again I'd much rather have a powerbook leak water on me than freon.

More likely they'd use an oil that has a high heat capacity. This would be similar to some of the older supercomputer cooling systems, where the entire circuit boards were immersed in oil. That might make the tinkerers among us think twice about taking apart a PowerBook...

 

[myrdred23]

Originally posted by gothamac
This company is selling what they call the "worlds first personal Supercomputer" and they have an interesting cooling system.


"Up to -35'C. That's how cool the CPU gets. That's how hot this system is. The most spectacular cooling system ever built using vapor compression cycle, is capable of removing CPU's heat over 50 times more efficiently than any air cooling solution. The enclosure itself, houses multiple air-flow thermal zones design with independent fans for all major temperature generating components."

Take a look at the tiny graphs showing it kicking the G5's butt.

http://www.go-l.com/desktops/machl35/features/index.htm

At the bottom of the page there's a link to the online store, It doesn't work on the top bar. Check out thoses prices.

Hmm, trully an interesting machine. However, theres a few things I've noted, looking at that page.

First of all, the page layout is pretty much almost identical to Apple's, with the system spec charts and the buttons, layout, everything, set up the same way as Apple's website.

Another, is the benchmarks. Please, take these with a grain of salt. The G5 SPEC benchmarks are the ones Apple used at WWDC, that were recorded with the very inefficient GCC, whereas all the other ones are done w/ Intel's uber-P4-compiler. I'm sure if IBM's new compiler was used, the results would be drastically different (that compiler showed improvements of up to 2-2.5x on the same code).

Having said that, this system still looks hot. It is definetily the most "Pro" windows system I've seen, and some of the things (OS stored in RAM, not HD space, for really fast loading) are revolutionary (to a certain extent). It seems that this machine is aiming at the same market as the high-end G5, as it includes the same multitude of ports that the PowerMac has (even FW800), and some other cool features. Heh, I'd love to play around with this machine, to see how it really lives up to the hype the site presents.

Having said that, there are some pretty obvious disadvantages to this system. First is the OS, it seems that it comes with WinXP in its read-only RAM, and I don't think you are even able to change this to Linux, while keeping the system's fast RAM-loading of the OS. Another is the 32-bitness of the Pentium. In a few years, it will be obsolete. Also, I'd be interesting to know how loud this thing gets. Oh, and obviously, the price makes the G5 look like dollar-store material. Heh.

-Myrd

 

[Snowy_River]

Re: Liquid cooling, etc.

Originally posted by Big Lar
AS for getting hydrogen out of water, it takes more energy to get the hydrogen out of water than you recover when you run it through a fuel cell, so that will never work. That's basic chemistry and physics.

While strictly speaking that's true, the idea of using a fuel cell to power a computer is still an attractive one. Instead of a battery, you'd have a fuel cell with a hydrogen tank. In order to recharge the "battery" you'd do something like plug it into a recharger that has a water tank, from which it would extract the hydrogen needed to fill up the "battery"'s tank.

Fuel cells are highly efficient, in comparison to most other means of extracting energy from the 2H+O => H2O reaction. If memory serves, current prototype fuel cells are in the range of 80-90% efficient (as compared with 50-60% efficiency for gas turbines).

 

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by myrdred23
Having said that, this system still looks hot. It is definetily the most "Pro" windows system I've seen, and some of the things (OS stored in RAM, not HD space, for really fast loading) are revolutionary (to a certain extent). It seems that this machine is aiming at the same market as the high-end G5, as it includes the same multitude of ports that the PowerMac has (even FW800), and some other cool features. Heh, I'd love to play around with this machine, to see how it really lives up to the hype the site presents.

The other minor downside is that you can't buy one. Did anybody try clicking on one of the payment links?

Hot enough to be a vapor?

 

[MrMacMan]

Originally posted by Freg3000
I can't imagine how this could be done. But then again, I am not an Apple engineer. Is it as "simple" as it sounds? Just using a liquid to physically cool the processor, rather than blowing air on it?

Indeed, taking the heat to go into the water and not overheating.


There are obstacles...

Currently Water Cooling is used for Overclockers and People who hate to hear any trace of a fan.



Back the the absurd:

I remember when Tom's Overclocked a P4 To 3.6 GHZ and had it like -70 + Degrees Celsius... insane...

 

[beefcake]

As has already been pointed out, a water cooled notebook would either be very heavy or have very poor battery life. Pumping the water through the monitor just doesn't seem like an option. Regardless of volume, pumping water to a height of even 10 inches would take enough energy to kill your battery. I'm not sure what the Apple engineers have up their sleave, but I can't see how an efficient water-cooled notebook could be feasible. Water adds weight, and unless Apple plans to defy the laws of physics, the heat would still end up on your lap.

On another note, what is all this http://www.go-l.com/ stuff I've seen today. Is it just a spoof or are these guys for real? The specs, though insane for a laptop, don't even seem possible at the time (128-bit P4?)

 

[Richter]

Originally posted by vitruvius
mmm... so now PowerBooks will be like cars, they need fuel (cells) to run, and change the coolant so it dont get too hot... so whats next? oil change?

ahh i cant wait....

I'l like to see LCD screen wipers next

=P

 

[Stelliform]

I definitely would wait until Rev. B on any radical change like liquid cooling...

 

[gothamac]

"It is also the first commercially available personal computer with an Accelerated* Front Side Bus speed of 933Mhz "

G5 has 1 ghz.

The way they copied the Apple store is almost creepy. I wouldn't trust this place.
I think it is interesting though to see the kind of prices for PC's when they're
comparable to Macs pro line. Windows people like to campare prices with Walmart machines, the never mention these systems.

 

[eric67]

Motorola to sell its PowerPC division to Tundra SemiConductors

the title means it all
Motorola to sell its PowerPC division to Tundra SemiConductors
http://www.hardmac.com

that's maybe why Apple is quickly advancing on a working prototype with a G5 processor... because it might be not so much G4 ahead... the rumored altivec-G3 might indeed be the solution for the iBook, but for the PowerBook...

 

[altglbrs]

Originally posted by beefcake
Regardless of volume, pumping water to a height of even 10 inches would take enough energy to kill your battery.

If you have a closed, sealed system, you aren't lifting the water.... just circulating it.

 

[AVON]

It's all a fake

This Go-L.com company is not real.
A bunch of people at my university have been researching the company today. Everyone was really interested in the products, but it's not real.

Link

Oh, and liquid cooled laptops do exist:

Hitachi will soon release a water-cooled notebook computer.

"The Japanese company said it has come up with a viable water-cooled prototype that essentially works like a radiator. The main advantage of the water-cooled notebook, according to Hitachi, is that its chips can run at higher clock speeds without the danger of overheating."

Using a stainless-steel tube of water-based liquid to cool down its Pentium 4 processor, heat is dissipated from the back of the LCD display.

 

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by gothamac
"where'd they get a single 2.0 ghz g5?"

I don't see the word single?

This company has copied the Apple store. What's with the first "get yours free" box. The ball looks like idisk.

i see it. at least twice.

and i quote

The Pentium 4 HT 3.5GHz has a floating-point performance 1.7_times faster than an AMD_Athlon 3200+ and over 1.8 times faster than a single-processor Power Mac G5 2.0GHz CPU.

The Pentium 4 HT_3.5GHz's Integer Performance is equally impressive about
45% times faster than an_AMD 3200+ and almost 85% times faster than a single-processor Power Mac G5 2.0GHz.

taken from this page:

http://www.go-l.com/desktops/machl35/processor/index.htm

between the performance graphs.

 

[supercres]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
I've heard some interesting ideas for G5 PowerBooks, but the more I hear, the happier I am for having just buying a G4 now...

True that.

 

[SiliconAddict]

Cost is not an issue*
I want my G5 NOW. Strap a water cooler on my back if necessary but I an American. I want my instant gratification NOW! NOW NOW NOW!







*Please note that this applies to this specific poster and individual acceptable purchase prices may very.

 

[rjstanford]

Re: PowerBook G5 with Liquid Cooling

Originally posted by Macrumors
AppleInsider reports that Apple engineers, faced with the cooling obstacles of the G5 processor in the Powerbook, are testing liquid cooled systems for the portables.

And this is a page one story why, exactly? I mean, its not as if the theorized 1.2ghz G5 puts out more heat than the old G4 - and even the bigger G5 is cooler than many of the el-cheapo non-centrino intel laptops, which can be cooled pretty well with some fairly quiet fans (think thinkpad)... Is Apple looking at water cooling? Probably. They are a large laptop manufacturer, after all. Seriously intending to use it soon? Probably not. There just isn't much of a need to justify that sort of early adoption - at least, not that I can see.

-Richard

 

[zapp]

Thermocouples

Here is how to get rid of a lot of heat and make power at the same time, Thermocouples. If you put a thermocouple on each piece of heat producing hardware including the hard drive, then channel the power it creates back into the batery you accomplish two things, get rid of the heat, extend battery life. A thermocouple take the difference in heat between two metals and creates electric current. I am sure it has been thought of, but it would be a better solution than liquid cooling. And there is no waste heat you need to get rid of. Now there are probably a thousand reasons why it wouldn't be feasible, but Galileo that just crashed into Jupiter has been using that very same source of power for the last 14 years or so, of course the heat was generated from the slow decay of radioactive material. Have fun with it, cause I didn't patent it.



Think I will go for a ride now.

 

[mainstreetmark]

Re: Thermocouples

Thermocouples require a LOT of heat. Gallileo wasn't heated by some CPU, they had some pretty nasty stuff in there (plutonium?)

Let me do a quick google, and see what i can find on them...
http://www.picotech.com/applications/thermocouple.html

That looks good - 300C => 12mV

 

[Steven1621]

i would say that i would settle for the extra size, weight, can cost if i could have the g5 in a portable.

 

[PHGN]

Speaking as an engineering student:

Liquid cooling has big advantages because, for a number of reasons (e.g. higher density, higher specific heat capacity, ease of efficient pumping, better conduction at the interface etc.), it is capable of a higher 'power' heat transfer -- ie more heat energy in a given period of time.

However all that heat still has to go somewhere, so the minimum temperature that can be achieved is no lower than the temp of the coolant as it enters the heat sink arrangement.

Normally a liquid cooled system will run cooler than an air cooed system for two reasons:

To transfer heat to the air fast enough requires a steep thermal gradient from the hot body to the cold body. Water conducts heat better than air so the gradient need not be as steep; the hot body will heat up until the gradient is steep enough to remove heat as fast as it is generated.

Liquid cooled systems can very easily take the heat from a small area and transfer it to a larger one, allowing a faster transfer of heat out to the air. That’s the function of the finned heat sink; take the heat from the die and spread it out so there is more contact with the air for faster cooling.

Problems I can foresee:
Leaks
Compounded by my ability to drop laptops down flights of stairs.

Bear in mind that eventually the heat ends up somewhere outside the laptop, almost certainly the air, so you still need an air-cooled part of the cooling system. (Thus a water cooled system can never go below air temp unless...

Refrigerated cooling systems are a different matter. Still need to output the heat somewhere and need more power as well. And generate much heat themselves.

On a side note, the nuclear reactors in submarines are mostly water-cooled. On an Ohio Class SSBN they don't use pumps. They rely on convection alone to move the coolant. The pumps are one of the main sources of noise on a nuclear sub. Rumour has it that the Ohio class boats are on average quieter than the equivalent volume of open sea water.

Oh and think of the impact on battery life of convection cooled system!

 

[FlamDrag]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
Seems like an excellent way to limit battery time to around 15 minutes.

<chuckle> so true.

This seems like - something that they just cooked up in their little brains and published.

For fun, let's pretend that it's true. Just because Apple is looking into it, doesn't mean that it's going into the first, second or third G5 Powerbook revision. Hell, maybe they have some sort of 3.5Ghz G5 mobile prototype that doubles as a Ronco Rotisserie oven. Maybe THAT is what they're trying to cool via liquid cooling. What I'm trying to say is that even if it's true, it's more likely IMHO that this is a long-term option.

<off topic>
If they decide to go with it, they should put little hydroelectric plants in there and harvest the energy of the moving water.

 

[dongmin]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
I want my G5 NOW. Strap a water cooler on my back if necessary but I an American. I want my instant gratification NOW! NOW NOW NOW!

well if you want it this bad, you can always strap on a G5 Power Mac and generator on your back.

 

[Rocketman]

Re: PowerBook G5 with Liquid Cooling

Originally posted by Macrumors
AppleInsider reports that Apple engineers, faced with the cooling obstacles of the G5 processor in the Powerbook, are testing liquid cooled systems for the portables.

While this might allow Apple to release a G5-powered PowerBook earlier, it would increase cost and size requirements, possibly limiting the technology to the 17" PowerBook to start.

Let's state the obvious. This would allow max speed chips and dualies in powerbooks on introduction. No half-measures.

Rocketman

 

[macphoria]

I'm glad they are working on solutions. I just hope this does not drive up the price.

 

[cevin]

Perhaps Apple should take a look at this technology.

http://science.slashdot.org/science/03/09/23/120234.shtml?tid=134