PowerBook G5 with Liquid Cooling

[Code101]

I won't get one!

Any processor that has to be cooled this way is not worth having in a notebook! I'll wait for the .09 process and then it may be room temp cooled. If not, I still won't buy it!

Intel is already at .09 with Prescott and Nocona!

I don't like this. IBM has done good but not good enough. Must move faster with the .09 process.

 

[Code101]

Originally posted by gothamac
"It is also the first commercially available personal computer with an Accelerated* Front Side Bus speed of 933Mhz "

G5 has 1 ghz.

Only 800MHz to the RAM! the speed between the processor and memory controller could be 5GHz for all I care. The fact is that form the memory controller to the RAM, it's only 800MHz. No different than Intel.

Apple tries to make the 970 sound like it's the first of everything commercially. Just like the first 64bit desktop line. The AMD Opteron was out before the 970. It's a 64 bit processor running on only the 32bit side of the core because there isn't a release of Windows XP 64 bit addition for AMD yet. Just like Jaguar and Panther is not 64bit. The G5 being able to run 64 bit is limited to the OS and applications that are not yet 64bit. Just like Opteron.

 

[Plutoniq]

Well, Apple has been using Heat-Pipe technology in various Powerbook heatsinks for some time. I know the original "Kanga" G3 (250mhz G3) had to use it (I think it was the first implemented with it), and I know my current Pismo uses heat-pipe heatsink.

Good thing 'bout heat-pipes is they use no energy, it's a passive process which uses heat to cycle water (wick like system). You can essentially contort heat-pipes to any shape, so it's a good way of transporting heat from point A to B.

I'm sure modern G4 books use 'em.

p'z

 

[backdraft]

http://www.go-l.com/desktops/machl38/features/index.htm

Seems pretty BOGUS! FireWire 800 on a PC, since when did Apple allow this? A 3.5ghz P4 where? when?

"Based on Microsoft's Professional NT Technologies, Windows XP Professional is the world's most widely used, stable, and versatile Operating System. And with thousands of additional proprietary enhancements and performing improving adjustments, to uniquely and exclusively match the new Mach 3.5 Personal SuperComputer with Microsoft’s Operating System, get ready for a Windows experience and enhanced productivity, taken to radically new extreme levels, for high-end enterprise and professional use, to ultimate gaming quests, Internet surfing and content creation and unlimited personal applications"

This is a load of crap.

http://www.go-l.com/winxp4l/winxp4l/index.htm

More crap.

http://www.go-l.com/technology/gm/index.html

Huh?

I wonder how Apple would respond.

-backdraft

P.S. Feel free to e-mail Apple. I see a lawsuit coming up. *cough* website *cough*

 

[Plutoniq]

Originally posted by backdraft
http://www.go-l.com/desktops/machl38/features/index.htm

Seems pretty BOGUS! FireWire 800 on a PC, since when did Apple allow this? A 3.5ghz P4 where? when?

Apple doesn't own Firewire technology anymore than Microsoft owns USB 1.1/2.0

They probably own the "Firewire" label (name itself), but the technology is licensed from a third-party developer.

Third-Party Firewire 400 and 800 has been available on PCI & Cardbus for both PC's and Macs for a while now, well firewire 800 only more recentley.

So, get your facts right before blurting out stupid accusations.

p'z

 

[macphoria]

http://www.go-l.com/desktops/machl38/features/index.htm

Seems pretty BOGUS! FireWire 800 on a PC, since when did Apple allow this? A 3.5ghz P4 where? when?

"Based on Microsoft's Professional NT Technologies, Windows XP Professional is the world's most widely used, stable, and versatile Operating System. And with thousands of additional proprietary enhancements and performing improving adjustments, to uniquely and exclusively match the new Mach 3.5 Personal SuperComputer with Microsoft’s Operating System, get ready for a Windows experience and enhanced productivity, taken to radically new extreme levels, for high-end enterprise and professional use, to ultimate gaming quests, Internet surfing and content creation and unlimited personal applications"

This is a load of crap.

http://www.go-l.com/winxp4l/winxp4l/index.htm

More crap.

http://www.go-l.com/technology/gm/index.html

Huh?

I wonder how Apple would respond.

-backdraft

P.S. Feel free to e-mail Apple. I see a lawsuit coming up. *cough* website *cough*

Their site sure looks like a rip off of Apple's site.

The machines they have on that site are monsters. Pretty darn expensive too.

I like their monitors though.

 

[backdraft]

Originally posted by Plutoniq
Apple doesn't own Firewire technology anymore than Microsoft owns USB 1.1/2.0

They probably own the "Firewire" label (name itself), but the technology is licensed from a third-party developer.

Third-Party Firewire 400 and 800 has been available on PCI & Cardbus for both PC's and Macs for a while now, well firewire 800 only more recentley.

So, get your facts right before blurting out stupid accusations.

p'z

Its bogus: http://www.spymac.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=41369&postid=614539#post614539

 

[Apple //e]

nothing new

didnt toshiba make a sub 1" watercooled notebook back in 2000? i think some porteges still have watercooling.

 

[macolicous]

Hello I just bought a 15in AlPb and I was wondering if anyone could tell me the best lock/strongest. I know Apple suggests the Kensington but I was wondering if there was anything stronger or more tamper proof. Thanks in advance.

 

[panphage]

Re: I won't get one!

Originally posted by Code101
Any processor that has to be cooled this way is not worth having in a notebook! I'll wait for the .09 process and then it may be room temp cooled. If not, I still won't buy it!

Intel is already at .09 with Prescott and Nocona!

I don't like this. IBM has done good but not good enough. Must move faster with the .09 process.

I'm pretty sure Intel isn't shipping any .09 chips yet. Almost positive. Going to a smaller process isn't any guarantee of a cooler chip, there's less surface area to cool, that's one thing that makes cooling harder.

Another person with his Opteron comments. Sigh. I love AMD but there is one tiny little obscure company that MAY have shipped some Opteron boxes meant for workstation use rather than as a server. Let's just let Apple have this, the Itanium was meant as a server chip and no one is selling them, the Opteron is an enterprise-level chip as well. When the Athlon64 is shipping, then you can compare an AMD chip in the same market as the G5. But the Opteron is just not part of that market, no matter what one obscure company decides to do with it. The Opteron competes with the POWER4, not it's kid brother 970.

 

[lduncan]

Originally posted by Plutoniq
Well, Apple has been using Heat-Pipe technology in various Powerbook heatsinks for some time. I know the original "Kanga" G3 (250mhz G3) had to use it (I think it was the first implemented with it), and I know my current Pismo uses heat-pipe heatsink.

Good thing 'bout heat-pipes is they use no energy, it's a passive process which uses heat to cycle water (wick like system). You can essentially contort heat-pipes to any shape, so it's a good way of transporting heat from point A to B.

I'm sure modern G4 books use 'em.

p'z

Finally, someone with a clue of what they are talking about.

When they say "liquid cooling", they do not mean mechanically pushing water around pipes inside the laptop, nor do they mean refridgerent cooling, ie compressing and expanding a liquid/gas.

The technology is called a heat pipe. Essentially it is a thin sealed tube with a liquid with a high heat capacity and relatively low boiling point. One end of the tube sits on the hot surface and the liquid inside is heated and vapourised. The vapour then moves via diffusion to the other end of the tube and condeses, dumping it's latent heat. Once condensed, the liquid is drawn by capillary action through thin groves in the tube, back to the other end of the tube to be heated again. The key is the capillary action, which allows the liquid to flow when the pipe is oriented in almost any direction.

I'm pretty sure it's already in use in the G4 laptops, to effectively distribute some of the heat from the cpu to other areas of the laptop.

 

[guenesis]

Originally posted by myrdred23
Hmm, trully an interesting machine. However, theres a few things I've noted, looking at that page.

First of all, the page layout is pretty much almost identical to Apple's, with the system spec charts and the buttons, layout, everything, set up the same way as Apple's website.

Another, is the benchmarks. Please, take these with a grain of salt. The G5 SPEC benchmarks are the ones Apple used at WWDC, that were recorded with the very inefficient GCC, whereas all the other ones are done w/ Intel's uber-P4-compiler. I'm sure if IBM's new compiler was used, the results would be drastically different (that compiler showed improvements of up to 2-2.5x on the same code).

Having said that, this system still looks hot. It is definetily the most "Pro" windows system I've seen, and some of the things (OS stored in RAM, not HD space, for really fast loading) are revolutionary (to a certain extent). It seems that this machine is aiming at the same market as the high-end G5, as it includes the same multitude of ports that the PowerMac has (even FW800), and some other cool features. Heh, I'd love to play around with this machine, to see how it really lives up to the hype the site presents.

Having said that, there are some pretty obvious disadvantages to this system. First is the OS, it seems that it comes with WinXP in its read-only RAM, and I don't think you are even able to change this to Linux, while keeping the system's fast RAM-loading of the OS. Another is the 32-bitness of the Pentium. In a few years, it will be obsolete. Also, I'd be interesting to know how loud this thing gets. Oh, and obviously, the price makes the G5 look like dollar-store material. Heh.

-Myrd

Hi Myrd,
I think that the site you are referring to is a hoax. While on the face of it, it looks pretty slick, it's rife with spelling errors and stock footage, plus some made up components. I think someone with an axe to grind against Apple is spoofing them. But maybe you already know that, and are just going along with the joke.

guenesis

 

[acj]

Originally posted by lduncan
Finally, someone with a clue of what they are talking about.

When they say "liquid cooling", they do not mean mechanically pushing water around pipes inside the laptop, nor do they mean refridgerent cooling, ie compressing and expanding a liquid/gas.

The technology is called a heat pipe. Essentially it is a thin sealed tube with a liquid with a high heat capacity and relatively low boiling point. One end of the tube sits on the hot surface and the liquid inside is heated and vapourised. The vapour then moves via diffusion to the other end of the tube and condeses, dumping it's latent heat. Once condensed, the liquid is drawn by capillary action through thin groves in the tube, back to the other end of the tube to be heated again. The key is the capillary action, which allows the liquid to flow when the pipe is oriented in almost any direction.

I'm pretty sure it's already in use in the G4 laptops, to effectively distribute some of the heat from the cpu to other areas of the laptop.

Indeed. It is used on nearly all laptops. This is not new technology by any means. Heatpipes transfer heat 10s of times faster than metal. The trans-alaska oil pipeline in my backyard is supported by thousands of heatpipes. They freeze the ground so cold in the winter that it doesn't that durring the summer, so the pipeline doesn't sink. Heatpipes work great on a small scale too.

 

[Code101]

Re: Re: I won't get one!

Originally posted by panphage
I'm pretty sure Intel isn't shipping any .09 chips yet. Almost positive. Going to a smaller process isn't any guarantee of a cooler chip, there's less surface area to cool, that's one thing that makes cooling harder.

Another person with his Opteron comments. Sigh. I love AMD but there is one tiny little obscure company that MAY have shipped some Opteron boxes meant for workstation use rather than as a server. Let's just let Apple have this, the Itanium was meant as a server chip and no one is selling them, the Opteron is an enterprise-level chip as well. When the Athlon64 is shipping, then you can compare an AMD chip in the same market as the G5. But the Opteron is just not part of that market, no matter what one obscure company decides to do with it. The Opteron competes with the POWER4, not it's kid brother 970.

The Intel Prescott .09 chips arn't shipping yet. We should see them next month sometime. Intel has been at .13 for well over two years now. I don't care which chip is more in the market. I just want to clear up the fact that the G5 is not the first 64 bit desktop processor.

As for the G5 in a powerbook, I won't get one with a cooling system like that. Time to go to .09 fast!

 

[singletrack]

Tundra

Tundra aren't buying the Motorola Semi Conductor division, just their interconnect technology...

http://www.tundra.com/page.cfm?TREE_ID=101320

Reading further, it would appear that Motorola could offload it's bridge business and a lot of it's RapidIO business to Tundra which would appear to be what is in the offing here. Moto would then just do the CPU with Tundra doing the system interconnect parts and RapidIO bridges to PCI, RAM or whatever. Interesting but Apple/IBM have gone a different way with the G5.

 

[greenstork]

Re: Re: Re: I won't get one!

Originally posted by Code101
I just want to clear up the fact that the G5 is not the first 64 bit desktop processor.

I'm glad you cleared that up because Apple never made that claim. If you actualy read their advertisements, website, etc., you'd see that they say the G5 is the first 64 bit personal computer.

 

[greenstork]

Re: Re: I won't get one!

Originally posted by panphage

Another person with his Opteron comments. Sigh. I love AMD but there is one tiny little obscure company that MAY have shipped some Opteron boxes meant for workstation use rather than as a server. Let's just let Apple have this, the Itanium was meant as a server chip and no one is selling them, the Opteron is an enterprise-level chip as well. When the Athlon64 is shipping, then you can compare an AMD chip in the same market as the G5. But the Opteron is just not part of that market, no matter what one obscure company decides to do with it. The Opteron competes with the POWER4, not it's kid brother 970.

Don't you hate it when technology is just too damn fast for you:

Athalon64 shipping

 

[Code101]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I won't get one!

Originally posted by greenstork
I'm glad you cleared that up because Apple never made that claim. If you actualy read their advertisements, website, etc., you'd see that they say the G5 is the first 64 bit personal computer.

Same thing! The Opteron is a Personal computer CPU as well. People had working Opteron based PC's on their desk before the G5 came out. Many months before!

 

[panphage]

Re: Re: Re: I won't get one!

Originally posted by greenstork
Don't you hate it when technology is just too damn fast for you:

Athalon64 shipping

Well, I would say "damn" but that article is from today, about a product launch today. I'm three hours behind, curses!

Code, my man, please pay attention. The Opteron is NOT a personal computer chip, it's a server chip like the POWER4. It made it's way into some workstation-class machines from some fringe players. The Opteron cannot be a personal computer chip BY DEFINITION: If the Opteron is AMD's consumer 64-bit chip, then what product is AMD's enterprise 64-bit chip? And what then is the Athlon64, a below-consumer chip? AMD's 64-bit Celeron?


I happen to think apple's marketing is wrong, the G5 is pretty much a workstation-class product, BUT I also realize that Apple can't market it as a workstation when there are no Professional-level graphics cards available for it.

 

[jade]

it is all about the 32 bit use of the processor, I believe the g5 chip is the first 64 bit chip that doesn't run 32bit programs in emulation. The Other 64bit chips have to emulate the 32bit environment, making it slower thanan eqivalent speed 32bit processor for todays software. G5 runs the current software natively. And I belive personal computer is very applicable to the g5 because: in what average retail store can you purchase an AMD 64bit computer. That's the difference, personal computer means available in regualr channels. (compusa, apple stores, best buy, whatever)

 

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by MrMacman
Currently Water Cooling is used for Overclockers and People who hate to hear any trace of a fan.

Steve Jobs is one of those people.

Originally posted by PHGN
Speaking as an engineering student:

Liquid cooling has big advantages because...

Thanks for the report!

Originally posted by PHGN
On a side note, the nuclear reactors in submarines are mostly water-cooled. On an Ohio Class SSBN they don't use pumps. They rely on convection alone to move the coolant. The pumps are one of the main sources of noise on a nuclear sub. Rumour has it that the Ohio class boats are on average quieter than the equivalent volume of open sea water.

I sure couldn't hear it when I was out fishing with my dad and one of them came sailing through

(We used to fish in the Strait of Juan de Fuca. Submarines are always going through the Strait, coming and going from Bangor. In fact, just offshore of my home town, we used to have a Russian spy ship watching them!)

Originally posted by Plutoniq
Apple doesn't own Firewire technology anymore than Microsoft owns USB 1.1/2.0

They probably own the "Firewire" label (name itself), but the technology is licensed from a third-party developer.

Intel invented USB, and Apple invented FireWire.

That said, both Intel and Apple are willing to let just anyone use the technology.

I think Apple should cool their PowerBooks with liquid nitrogen. I will buy the protective gloves for Kodwarisan myself if this happens.

 

[revenuee]

http://www.go-l.com/desktops/machl35/features/index.htm


this site has been discussed, and is on going in another thread.

It's not real

1. those cooling systems have only been implemented in supercomputers, and when i say supercomputer i mean; room sized, teraflop (not gigflop like the g4's were advertized) producing, millions of dollars worth- systems, as well as in the research of potential superconductors

2. the company advertizes a 3.8 ghz processor that doesn't exist, expandable to 16 gigs of ram, which can't be done (yet), with 4 internal 250 gig harddrives, all neatly packaged in a 15" laptop.

3. the companies store accepts wire tranfers to a numbered account

4. Firewire is apple, I Link is sony - to everybody else it is IEEE 1394

my conclusion this site is probably

a. a masters or senior level project that a couple of business/multimedia students put together. This is often done at my University, i've just never seen one so good

b. a communications project showing how the internet has to be viewed critically because it is so easy to post information by just about anyone with a computer, internet connection, and some time.

 

[Daveman Deluxe]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Intel invented USB, and Apple invented FireWire.

That said, both Intel and Apple are willing to let just anyone use the technology.

Right on, Phil. Apple charges licensing fees for each FireWire port produced (something like a dollar a port), and Intel does the same with the USB part.

 

[valmiki]

One possible application of a chip-sized cooling device is described here: http://www.eetimes.com/news/97/973news/micro.html

It's a stirling engine design, built by http://www.sunpower.com. Stirling engines can also be used to recycle heat into electricity.

Another option is thermoacoustic cooliing: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,49720,00.html

 

[revenuee]

i think the first line of that article supports my point

"Engineers at Sun Power Inc. are engaged in an ambitious micromachine research effort that aims to shrink cooling technology to the chip level."

i think the key word is "aims", suggesting that it doesn't exist yet, atleast not in working, marketable way.

reading on the article supports this interpretation.