Safari 2.0.1

[makeme]

What exactly does Apple have to be sorry for?

Granted I am a recent switcher, I am very content with Tiger and feel the money I spent on it was invested quite well.. Windows has never been able to become such an important work companion in 6 years as Tiger has become in 3 months...

I've written about my problems with Tiger before, but here is a recap for those who wonder why I and others think Tiger is still not quite there. The biggest problems are the things that crash, like Safari and the things that just flat out don't work right, like Automator.

Mail
crashes on quit (fixed 10.4.1)
loses messages (fixed 10.4.2)
has preference and mail rules glitches
looks terrible (subjective, I know, but that's how I feel)
is a slap in the face to Apple's HIG (Human Interface Guidelines)

Safari
crashes on quit (fixed 10.4.1)
uses too much memory and is probably leaking memory
crashes on certain websites
has minor scrolling and rendering glitches on certain websites

Automator
uses too much memory and is probably leaking memory (fixed 10.4.2)
slow performance
workflows saved as finder plugins and standalone applications don't work

Dashboard
all widgets mysteriously stop working and or close (fixed 10.4.2)
uses too much memory
crashes upon waking from sleep when using certain third party widgets

 

[ohcrap]

I've written about my problems with Tiger before, but here is a recap for those who wonder why I and others think Tiger is still not quite there. The biggest problems are the things that crash, like Safari and the things that just flat out don't work right, like Automator.

Mail
crashes on quit (fixed 10.4.1)
loses messages (fixed 10.4.2)
has preference and mail rules glitches
looks terrible (subjective, I know, but that's how I feel)
is a slap in the face to Apple's HIG (Human Interface Guidelines)

Safari
crashes on quit (fixed 10.4.1)
uses too much memory and is probably leaking memory
crashes on certain websites
has minor scrolling and rendering glitches on certain websites

Automator
uses too much memory and is probably leaking memory (fixed 10.4.2)
slow performance
workflows saved as finder plugins and standalone applications don't work

Dashboard
all widgets mysteriously stop working and or close (fixed 10.4.2)
uses too much memory
crashes upon waking from sleep when using certain third party widgets

Very good report, but I can't help but wonder what a similar report would look like after analyzing Windows software issues.

I'm not suggesting that you were comparing to Windows, I'm just saying. We're all given a choice as to what OS we want to use, and speaking from a personal standpoint, having used all desktop Windows versions since 3.11, various Linux distros (mostly SuSe 9.1 Personal and Mandrake 10), and now OS X Tiger, I would never go back to PC OS'es.

My point of all this is that I'm wondering if you still prefer OS X over other OS'es, or if you prefer something else, and if so, what?

Keep in mind, please, I'm not arguing anything by this post, just curious about your opinions because obviously you've done your homework.

 

[FaasNat]

Doesn't seem to fix my page rendering problems with the ebooks my class uses. Filed a bug thing, but not sure if Apple can view it since it's only available with student logins (and probably staff/instructors).

 

[rendezvouscp]

Sounds like he's a web devloper. He noticed the first feature, specifically, because he was wanting to use it.

As for the secound... Do you have any idea how annoying it is to change the image file, to fix some bug, and then have to go through all kinds of contortions to see if the fix worked because you can't get the browser to reload it?

Yes, in general it is a good idea to pull from cache. However, when I hit reload, it is very helpful to have the browser actually reload everything.

I definitely don't know what I'm talking about as a web developer myself.

As for myself, I've rarely had to go through all kinds of contortions in order to get Safari to recognize a new image (although I speak only for myself). A simple refresh, even perhaps a hard refresh, usually does the trick, but I do know what it's like for something not to refresh (happens more often with JS than anything else for me).
-Chase

 

[avjason]

Tabbed browsing broken after update

Can't browse using tabs after the update ! I have to delete the .plist file to get Safari to run after turning tabs on in Preferences.

Anyone have this problem or any suggestions as to how I can fix. I don't have any weird hacks or other programs downloaded except for windows media player 9. HELP !

 

[Doctor Q]

Mail
is a slap in the face to Apple's HIG (Human Interface Guidelines)

I found the new uninformative progress indicator in Mail especially annoying, since it used to count off messages as they were received. When I checked the latest Human Interface Guidelines on this topic (here), I found that they mention e-mail as a specific example:

Asynchronous progress indicator: Use when space is very constrained. These indicators are best used for asynchronous events that take place in the background, such as retrieving messages from a server.

However, there is clearly space in the Mail window for a full-size progress bar or message, so I agree that they are not following their own guidelines because they ignore their own words:

Determinate progress bar: Use when the full length of an operation can be determined and you can tell the user how much of the process has been completed.

Safari seems to follow Apple's HIG much more than Mail does.

 

[stcanard]

Safari
...
uses too much memory and is probably leaking memory
...
Automator
uses too much memory and is probably leaking memory (fixed 10.4.2)
...
Dashboard
...
uses too much memory

<sigh>

Repeat after me:

Only real memory counts. Total memory does not.

Even then it's only a problem if your active set is larger than the total real memory.

A system that has 256MB of real memory free is wasting 256MB.

Any time I've even come close to filling my real memory with active tasks those dashboard items hit swap so fast it makes their heads spin. So their memory is not affecting system performance, and therefore is not an issue.

Although I do agree that Safari appears to have a leak. That needs to be dealt with.

 

[rendezvouscp]

<sigh>

Repeat after me:

Only real memory counts. Total memory does not.

Even then it's only a problem if your active set is larger than the total real memory.

A system that has 256MB of real memory free is wasting 256MB.

Any time I've even come close to filling my real memory with active tasks those dashboard items hit swap so fast it makes their heads spin. So their memory is not affecting system performance, and therefore is not an issue.

Although I do agree that Safari appears to have a leak. That needs to be dealt with.

I'm glad that they're finally hunting the memory leaks in Safari. Let's all hope that we'll get the "leakless" version sometime this year.
-Chase

 

[stcanard]

I'm glad that they're finally hunting the memory leaks in Safari. Let's all hope that we'll get the "leakless" version sometime this year.
-Chase

That would be nice.

Although as somebody with (unfortunately too much) experience hunting memory leaks in complex applications, I understand just how difficult they are to track down... (and my experience is in Java which is *theoretically* not capable of leaking memory!)

 

[ohcrap]

Question: What does it mean when a problem has a memory "leak"? I've never heard this term before and can't seem to find a definition for it. Thanks.

 

[stcanard]

Question: What does it mean when a problem has a memory "leak"? I've never heard this term before and can't seem to find a definition for it. Thanks.

It means that the application allocates memory that never gets reclaimed during garbage collection (in languages that have that), so the memory footprint gets larger, and there is no way to reclaim that memory.

It's done by severing all references to an object without marking that object for reclamation. Of course in languages that have automatic garbage collection (java) that's supposed to be impossible...

 

[rendezvouscp]

It means that the application allocates memory that never gets reclaimed during garbage collection (in languages that have that), so the memory footprint gets larger, and there is no way to reclaim that memory.

It's done by severing all references to an object without marking that object for reclamation. Of course in languages that have automatic garbage collection (java) that's supposed to be impossible...

Someone doesn't seem too thrilled with Java...

I'm curious if how memory leaks are triggered in Safari. On the Surfin' Safari blog they mentioned (as I read it) that certain sites can cause memory leaks in Safari. What causes the leak to come out? I think that's the right question.
-Chase

 

[minaguib]

Question: What does it mean when a problem has a memory "leak"? I've never heard this term before and can't seem to find a definition for it. Thanks.

Simple

Applications need memory to store "things". Those things could be anything. They could be the user's name, age, an image, a date, anything.

So the application estimates how much memory it would need for what it's planning to store in it, then asks the OS (Operating System) to assign it that much memory.

In theory, after the application receives the "lease" on that memory block and uses it, it should return it back to the operating system (called free()ing the memory) when it no longer has a use for it.

A memory leak is when an application forgets to free() memory it was assigned. That chunk of memory then sits in no man's land. The application is no longer using it, and the OS is not re-claiming it since as far as it's concerned, the application is still using it.

 

[ohcrap]

So basically it uses memory and then doesn't give it back when it's done?

Well, that's no good! (stating the obvious)

Thanks for the definition.

 

[Doctor Q]

It means that the application allocates memory that never gets reclaimed during garbage collection (in languages that have that), so the memory footprint gets larger, and there is no way to reclaim that memory.

"No way to reclaim that memory" only as long as the application is running. If there is a memory leak in Safari, for example, Safari's memory image gets larger until you Quit, when all memory is reclaimed. And, with Mac OS X handling virtual memory, having unreferenced memory allocated to Safari isn't necessarily a performance problem since it will only be "virtually" in use, not actually using your RAM. You don't want to have software with memory leaks (and I try my best to keep them out of code I write), but it's not something to panic over.

If there are memory leaks in Mac OS X itself, that's slightly more serious, since you never quit the O.S., but restarting the Mac clears memory and lets it start fresh again. This can be an issue for servers, which are a pain to reboot because users are using their services.

You don't normally quit the Finder or the Dock, because you treat them as part of Mac OS X, but that are really just applications and you can kill and restart them if it is ever necessary.

 

[shamino]

Question: What does it mean when a problem has a memory "leak"? I've never heard this term before and can't seem to find a definition for it. Thanks.

It's when an application allocates memory and then loses track of it.

It's normal for modern apps to allocate a lot of memory. For instance, if you point your web browser at a page that has 10MB worth of images, your browser needs to allocate enough memory to hold those images.

And that memory may not go away when you go to another page. The program may keep the images in memory in case you come back to the page, or if another page uses them. (That's the definition of an in-memory cache.)

As long as the app is keeping track of the memory, it's not a leak, no matter how much is allocated. If the app loses track of the memory, however, then there will be no means for returning it back to the system or using it for other purposes. This will (eventually) cause the app's memory footprint to grow without bound, eventually causing it to crash (and maybe taking the system down with it if the OS doesn't handle the situation gracefully.)

As others here have said, memory leaks in applications are usually not critical. The memory is reclaimed when you quit the app. Leaks in system apps (like the Finder) are more critical, because the apps won't quit unless you force them to restart (or if you log off). Leaks in the kernel itself can be very critical - that memory won't be reclaimed without a reboot.

Just to add a bit more confusion, you should not expect an app's memory footprint to shrink, even if it is freeing unused memory. Applications very rarely pass each and every memory request to the OS. Most memory libraries (including the one that comes with most C compilers) allocate memory in large chunks, which they then subdivide as needed to satisfy application requests. When the application frees memory, the memory subsystem just marks the memory as free so it can be used to satisfy a subsequent request. It will rarely (if ever) actually return the memory back to the OS.

In summary: An app using a lot of memory does not necessarily mean you have a leak. An app that grabs a lot of memory when you load something big (document, web page, etc.) and doesn't give it back when you close the document does not necessarily mean you have a leak. An app whose memory footprint constantly grows when the data you're working with is not growing probably does indicate a leak.

Ultimately, only the app's programmer can conclusively determine if there is a leak, but the above summary should suffice to decide if you want to report a suspected leak to the program's author/publisher.

 

[aegisdesign]

Some of the CSS3 border-radius draft? I'd say most of the CSS3 backgrounds and borders draft, not just that specific feature.

Curious, why do you want background images to be reloaded on every page? Isn't it generally a good thing that they don't get reloaded?
-Chase

They're missing rendering lines so you can't for instance do a transparent rounded box with a 3px line around it. Currently it renders the sides but the corners don't have the line. Also not done are dashed, dotted etc.

I'm wondering if they are going to add dropshadows to borders/backgrounds. That would be very nice, even as a -khtml only thing.

I perhaps didn't make it clear about backgrounds reloading. Safari 1.3/2.0 reloaded background images every time causing a visible blip as they scrolled in. This version fixes that.

 

[aegisdesign]

I'd love to see Apple finally support contenteditable...they claim to support it but nobody has been able to show that it works yet.

It does work.

See http://allforces.com/2005/04/19/wysiwyg-comes-to-safari-13/

And more than likely there'll be funky editors using it soon - FCKEditor for instance is being ported after users donated a Mac to the cause so the developer could port it.

 

[wwooden]

This update stopped Ollie's Tab. I tried reinstalling, but it says it only works with safari 2.0, not 2.0.1. Man, I need this plug-in back.

 

[ppnkg]

I downloaded it yesterday. Now, I'm not sure about stability, but they did make some minor improvements which make it more functional for me, e.g how the auto fill of the address bar works.

 

[munkle]

This update stopped Ollie's Tab. I tried reinstalling, but it says it only works with safari 2.0, not 2.0.1. Man, I need this plug-in back.

I can't seem to access the developers' site but surely using command-T is more convenient?

 

[rolandf]

Very good report, but I can't help but wonder what a similar report would look like after analyzing Windows software issues.

I'm not suggesting that you were comparing to Windows, I'm just saying. We're all given a choice as to what OS we want to use, and speaking from a personal standpoint, having used all desktop Windows versions since 3.11, various Linux distros (mostly SuSe 9.1 Personal and Mandrake 10), and now OS X Tiger, I would never go back to PC OS'es.

My point of all this is that I'm wondering if you still prefer OS X over other OS'es, or if you prefer something else, and if so, what?

Keep in mind, please, I'm not arguing anything by this post, just curious about your opinions because obviously you've done your homework.

Quite a useless suggestion! It is a fact, that Apple put out something higly unfinished which does not match the standards one expects from them.

Yes, as an Apple user one has the right to say what is wrong, and it is just stupid to say, look there are worse things.

On such buggy stuff like OS Tiger, Apple did surely not build its reputation.

 

[rolandf]

What comes next?

OS X is largely based on Next Step / Open Step. That was done at a time, that Jobs considers as one of his best and most creative period.

The people behind it just wanted to make state of the art and even more.
I still remeber when I first saw the cube (colour version) at a presentation at our university.

Never was so impressed from anything else in computing!

But, now it would have been time for Apple to bring something new, not just living form a legacy. As time passes by, they are just losing their competitive advantage over others.

Things like the Next, are seldom in history, and can only be made by the best and fully dedicated people who don't think about money.

Apple today, has to make money, as OS Tiger shows.

 

[taylan]

safari useless after update

more problems here, after installing the update, safari doesn't even launch at all. it crashes right away. no third party plug-ins, i even fixed the permissions before and after the update. i didn't have time to investigate any further, but as i hate all the other browsers, including firefox, this is really frustrating.

any suggestions?

 

[munkle]

You can try deleting the preferences file, that might do the trick. Do a search for "safari.plist" (the actual file is com.apple.Safari.plist).