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Apple Restricting Use of NFC Antenna in iPhone 6 and 6 Plus to Apple Pay

Chupa Chupa said:
Apple has already recruited many major stores before the Apple Pay announcement to ensure it was usable to some extent.
Click to expand...

Apple didn't have to "recruit" those merchants. From the quick list I saw, they already have NFC terminals. And since those merchants don't have to do anything, it was a no-brainer to agree to be promoted as a "flagship" merchant.

Subway is the odd one out. The individual stores are typically operated by franchisees, and I'm not sure that Subway (the company) actually controls their PoS terminal deployment.

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Loudkid said:
I think you make a very good point here. Thing is, other competitors have already partnered up with merchants when this technology first came out so where does that leave Apple? I'd say Apple has a lot more work to do in gaining support for the Apple Pay. Or, could it be that merchants trust one phone manufacture over the others (e.g. Apple, Samsung, HTC, etc), and are willing to sign up going forward? Time will tell I suppose.
Click to expand...

Apple's "partnering" with merchants is nothing more than cross-promotion. To a merchant's Point of Sale terminal, :apple:pay is indistinguishable from a physical card with an RFID/NFC chip, or an Android phone with Google Wallet.

Merchants don't have to do anything special, other than to add the NFC option to an EMV terminal (that they already have to buy before 10/2015), or enable the NFC functionality.
 
Apple Pay

Does this drastically increase the likely hood for a wave of POS attacks ?? I know they will always continue, but would they increase by a large percentage just because of Apple Pay now, or will it be "just another payment system we can go after if we want to" ?
 
ptb42 said:
Apple didn't have to "recruit" those merchants. From the quick list I saw, they already have NFC terminals. And since those merchants don't have to do anything, it was a no-brainer to agree to be promoted as a "flagship" merchant.

Subway is the odd one out. The individual stores are typically operated by franchisees, and I'm not sure that Subway (the company) actually controls their PoS terminal deployment.

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Apple's "partnering" with merchants is nothing more than cross-promotion. To a merchant's Point of Sale terminal, :apple:pay is indistinguishable from a physical card with an RFID/NFC chip, or an Android phone with Google Wallet.

Merchants don't have to do anything special, other than to add the NFC option to an EMV terminal (that they already have to buy before 10/2015), or enable the NFC functionality.
Click to expand...
It's quite more than cross promotion. Chase visa mc Amex are putting the apple pay logo next to their names, not off to the side.
 
While different forms of payment to try and make things easier come and go (and a potential "just another form of attack", there is always one thing that will stay round and will never be replaced, and while not always convenient, it's the safest.

I have Chip and pin with my CC, and even if Apple Pay did make it to Australia, i'd never use it, cos i know i'm just as secure with my banking as i always am..

So, it takes me 10 second to get my wallet from my pocket.... and a a minute to pay my my card. Big deal... People can't even wait a messy few seconds for anything anymore.. I can see where Apple pay will be good in a quick situation, but honestly, most won't be busy all the time.... it will be more about, "why not, because we can." and "no one has to fumble for their wallet anymore"

And here we are being taught how to not keep your wallet in plan sight to prevent personal attacks..

you know, a phone is allot bigger than a wallet.
 
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ptb42 said:
Apple didn't have to "recruit" those merchants. From the quick list I saw, they already have NFC terminals. And since those merchants don't have to do anything, it was a no-brainer to agree to be promoted as a "flagship" merchant.

Subway is the odd one out. The individual stores are typically operated by franchisees, and I'm not sure that Subway (the company) actually controls their PoS terminal deployment.
Click to expand...


Most Subway stores have a POS solution provided by Subway. Here in Missoula, MT however, they have the terminals hidden behind the counter and the owner has instructed local managers to prohibit people from using contactless.

Most Subways it'll be fine at, but it's not going to work in Missoula, MT cause the owner is a ....
 
NightFox said:
Yep, that's why it should be an option. A simple "Don't Authenticate purchases under £5" option in settings so people can decide. However, if this is going to extend to transit passes (like London Transport's Oyster Cards), there's no way that'll work if users need to authenticate payments, it's just too slow.
Click to expand...

Why?

The authentication is as simple as holding your thumb on the home button as you touch in. You authenticate purely in the phone.

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StyxMaker said:
Apple is only a channel for the transaction data to be sent to the payment processor. Apple is not a party to the transaction.
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Not 100% true, you can use the card linked to your iTunes account. Tim did say that in the keynote.

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Menneisyys2 said:
This is TRULY pathetic!

This means

- you won't be able to quickly share images between an NFC-capable camera / phone / tablet and an iPhone

- quickly configure and/or establish a connection between two devices (say, an NFC-enabled photo / video camera and an iPhone to be used as the remote controller).

Let me point out that Android (and, for that matter, Symbian) has been doing all these since 2012 (Nexus 7 and a lot other phones / tablets, Nokia 808 etc.). I love using NFC between my NFC-enabled cameras, phones and tablets - it makes all kinds of connection reestablishing / image / file sharing orders of magnitude faster (and fully automatic).
Click to expand...

And they didn't let TouchID do anything except unlock the phone and buy stuff from the app store or iTunes in iOS 7, yet in iOS 8 there is an API to allow you to use TouchID in apps. Be patient and let them make sure that they have an API that is completely secure and it'll open up.
 
Wait up.............Apple locking down their OS????????????????
Say it aint so........
 
lostngone said:
You mean like iMessage?

Didn't they say they were going to allow other venders to use it when it was announced?
Click to expand...

Nope. That was never on any keynote.

They did mention that FaceTime used standard protocols, and I think people inferred that an API would be released, but they never directly said they would.

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Chupa Chupa said:
Makes sense from both a security perspective and also preventing other NFC consortiums from piggybacking on Apple's success; i.e., "encouraging," merchants to adopt Apple's system if they want to cash in on the lucrative iPhone user base.

The iPhone has been a walled garden from the start so I don't know why anyone is that surprised NFC use is limited in the iPhone. Personally I'm glad it is because it puts security responsibilities on Apple front and center; there is no wiggle room if fraud happens because Apple Pay is Apple's baby 100%.
Click to expand...

The merchant side of it is industry standard EMV. If Apple Pay works, so will contactless cards, and google wallet.

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acedout said:
Why do you think it'll take years? And what do you expect to gain by using Apple Pay? It certainly WILL be years before everyone accepts this as a form of payment, so you'll be carrying around your cards with you for some time in any case.
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Ummm, if Apple pay was available in the UK now, I could go over to the co-op not 2 minutes walk from me, and they would take it. No equipment upgrade required on their part. They already take contactless payments.

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roadbloc said:
How is it anyway more secure? It works identical to how it does on my BlackBerry. And I imagine it works exactly the same on Android too. And to top it off, all of the storage on my BlackBerry is encrypted. If someone stole my phone they would have to work out my device password then my BlackBerry account password, all before I got round to disabling the device remotely.

I think my security is just fine.
Click to expand...

You know all the storage on the iPhone is also encrypted. I believe it is on Windows Phone too. Android, I honestly don't know so I will make no comment.

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pmau said:
I'm not disputing that. It's just not true that Apple has to talk to individual banks that issue credit cards to end customers.

You bank does not care once your card is issued.
The payment processor cares...

That's all I was saying.
Click to expand...

Errr wrong. Apple is getting a cut from the banks, not from the merchant, not from MasterCard, Visa or Amex, from the issuing bank. That needs agreement with the issuing bank or its a no go.

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Boomish69 said:
I just read from Visa Apple Pay wont be in the UK till next year! Apple are you bloody kidding me? NFC has been here for years!!!!! surely you could have sorted it here easily..once again Apple's short sighted up, their own bottom planning, failing again... I have a good mind to cancel my iPhone 6 order now, that was one feature I was looking forward to.
Click to expand...

Bearing in mind next year is less than 4 months away, it might not be long.
 
cjmillsnun said:
Not 100% true, you can use the card linked to your iTunes account. Tim did say that in the keynote.
Click to expand...

I think it would help to clarify what "party to the transaction" means.

Your mileage may vary, but that means to me that when I buy something with :apple:pay at a retail merchant, only the parties initiating the transaction, transmitting the transaction, or authorizing the transaction are "parties". Apple is not a party to this transaction, unless Apple is the merchant.

Apple may be involved with the original creation of the credit card alias (i.e. the Device Account Number). But, that occurs when you load the card into your Passbook. And Apple can easily add the card linked to your iTunes account to your Passbook: they already have all the necessary information.

I suggested an experiment in an earlier posting to determine whether Apple is involved in adding a card to your Passbook, using a network sniffer. Anyone want to try it?
 
Quu said:
Disappointing. I hope they open it by iOS 9 or earlier. There are a lot of great uses for this beyond payments.
Click to expand...

like what? nfc stickers? lol

I have an android phone and beyond the nfc stickers, there's really not much you can do. the size of files you can transfer is limited to at least on android.
 
markie said:
Most Subway stores have a POS solution provided by Subway. Here in Missoula, MT however, they have the terminals hidden behind the counter and the owner has instructed local managers to prohibit people from using contactless.

Most Subways it'll be fine at, but it's not going to work in Missoula, MT cause the owner is a ....
Click to expand...

Thanks, that was informative. It's been a while since I was in a Subway, so I didn't know they had a standard setup. But, I do wonder why some people are so nervous about contactless payments. It's far more secure than the magnetic stripe:

http://www.smartcardalliance.org/publications-contactless-payment-security-qa/

The cardholder information that is used during a contactless payment transaction is of little to no use in creating fraudulent payment transactions. The security implementation currently used by the different payment brands causes the contactless device-generated transaction information to change every time a reader reads the device. This transaction information is generated using a strong encryption key that is known only to the financial issuer.
 
Chupa Chupa said:
Apple has the biggest selling smart phone in the U.S. with a demographic that likes to spend money so I think that give them a lot of clout with merchants or it couldn't have gotten as far as it already has. Previous partnerships have formed but those didn't get consumers to adopt NFC. The point here regarding locking NFC is that Apple only wants users of its devices to use Apple Pay because it wants to get "paid" for its work.

Now whether that is enough does remain to be seen. Habits fall hard and Americans are use to swiping, not tapping.
Click to expand...

Sure, you're correct in that Apple only wants people to use Apple Pay if they have a iPhone. Although, NFC payments will work with any phone that has the ability to make them. So, the more places that get NFC POS Terminals Apple Pay and Google Wallet along with Soft Card will all be able to use the same NFC POS.
 
aevelasquez said:
I don't think so. I think as Apple establishes partner ships, ApplePay Sensors will either be implemented for the first time or will replace existing NFC sensors. Once the doubting parties see the response it gets and the level of usage it gets, others will follow suit.
Click to expand...


Apple Pay uses the standard NFC terminals and payment system. Vendors do not need any proprietary or special equipment for Apple Pay.
 
Lancer said:
I see another Samsung ad mocking the new iPhone in our future :(
Click to expand...

It will be well deserved too. Good job, don't include a feature that's been readily available for 5 years on competing devices... and then don't allow it's primary use.... which has not been payments, but sharing of files and other info.

Very few people actually use their phones as payment devices!

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You really haven't read any of the articles, have you?
It's not as simple as having an NFC terminal. Note that all those companies have to install new hardware because the apple payment program isn't compatible with the current NFC terminals, which is why other merchants have said no.

I'm sure some can simply do software upgrades, other have to install all new hardware

The thing is, every retailer needs new hardware by 2016 anyway unless they want to be liable to fraud. Visa/MC will no longer cover fraudulent transactions if secure terminals are not in use for new cards with chips that the rest of teh world already uses. This is the primary reason why so many companies are willing to spend money right now on new terminals. You may be noticing stores all around you upgrading their terminals and this is why.


ptb42 said:
Apple didn't have to "recruit" those merchants. From the quick list I saw, they already have NFC terminals. And since those merchants don't have to do anything, it was a no-brainer to agree to be promoted as a "flagship" merchant.

Subway is the odd one out. The individual stores are typically operated by franchisees, and I'm not sure that Subway (the company) actually controls their PoS terminal deployment.

----------



Apple's "partnering" with merchants is nothing more than cross-promotion. To a merchant's Point of Sale terminal, :apple:pay is indistinguishable from a physical card with an RFID/NFC chip, or an Android phone with Google Wallet.

Merchants don't have to do anything special, other than to add the NFC option to an EMV terminal (that they already have to buy before 10/2015), or enable the NFC functionality.
Click to expand...
 
tbrinkma said:
How, exactly, do you propose that Apple could allow people to use the NFC radio for arbitrary data transfers, and still prevent it from being used for financial transactions? Those transactions are, after all, done using transfer of data via the NFC radio.
Click to expand...

Easily...by denying approval to the App Store (which Apple can control strictly) to any app that tries to perform a financial transaction via NFC.
 
Loudkid said:
I think you make a very good point here. Thing is, other competitors have already partnered up with merchants when this technology first came out so where does that leave Apple? I'd say Apple has a lot more work to do in gaining support for the Apple Pay. Or, could it be that merchants trust one phone manufacture over the others (e.g. Apple, Samsung, HTC, etc), and are willing to sign up going forward? Time will tell I suppose.
Click to expand...


If the merchant purchased NFC readers they can be used with Pay no matter what they originally purchased the equipment for.
 
vncha said:
So this pretty much screws over any non-US person then...
Click to expand...

Visa says they're working to get Apply Pay going in Europe. Sorry, no timetable yet.

In addition, Mastercard/Maestro says that starting Jan 2016, all new terminals in Europe must support NFC payments, and by 2020, all older terminals must be updated as well.

cjmillsnun said:
Not 100% true, you can use the card linked to your iTunes account. Tim did say that in the keynote.
Click to expand...

As ptb42 has noted, Cook simply meant that you could easily add your current iTunes card to Passbook to use with Apple Pay. It doesn't use iTunes after that.

MacAddict1978 said:
It's not as simple as having an NFC terminal. Note that all those companies have to install new hardware because the apple payment program isn't compatible with the current NFC terminals, which is why other merchants have said no.
Click to expand...

Apple Pay is compatible with current NFC terminals and does not require new hardware.

Chupa Chupa said:
They have to purchase and install NFC equipment. Most U.S. stores do not have NFC because of the install cost and lack of current consumer demand. So yes, merchants would have to adopt NFC for Apple Pay to work. Apple has already recruited many major stores before the Apple Pay announcement to ensure it was usable to some extent. Why would they let all that work go to competitors? Of course they want iPhone users to use Apple Pay only.
Click to expand...

Once a merchant has NFC terminals, anyone can use them.

Again, contactless terminals are coming even if Apple disappeared tomorrow. Visa made it one of their conversion requirements in the USA to avoid certain burdensome yearly security audits.

tbrinkma said:
How, exactly, do you propose that Apple could allow people to use the NFC radio for arbitrary data transfers, and still prevent it from being used for financial transactions? Those transactions are, after all, done using transfer of data via the NFC radio.
Click to expand...

NFC controllers are usually programmed to route NFC payment communications DIRECTLY to/from the Secure Element (if there is one), which is where MC/Visa/etc payment apps would be on an iPhone.

nfc_secure_element.png

Thus the credit card payment comms cannot be seen by iOS or apps. The payments go over a private internal bus (the SE can even be inside the NFC controller). Afterwards iOS can query the SE to see how the transaction went.

In other words, the NFC controller makes sure that different types of NFC communications are kept to their own sandboxes. There's no payment security reason to not support the other neat things that NFC can do.
 
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ptb42 said:
Thanks, that was informative. It's been a while since I was in a Subway, so I didn't know they had a standard setup. But, I do wonder why some people are so nervous about contactless payments. It's far more secure than the magnetic stripe:

http://www.smartcardalliance.org/publications-contactless-payment-security-qa/

The cardholder information that is used during a contactless payment transaction is of little to no use in creating fraudulent payment transactions. The security implementation currently used by the different payment brands causes the contactless device-generated transaction information to change every time a reader reads the device. This transaction information is generated using a strong encryption key that is known only to the financial issuer.
Click to expand...

Chip cards are subject to newer types of side-channel attacks like differential power analysis. Since the information accessible may be more than is currently on magstripes (in some implementations), or things like a stored value (for stored value cards), this can be more dangerous than hacking a magstripe.
 
dmccombs said:
I won't use Apple's NFC as long as they keep it closed to only Apple solutions. I am tired of Apple making their hardware work only with their Stores, etc.

I haven't used iBooks since they made Kindle take their store out of their app, and I won't support this.

QUIT BEING SO D@MN GREEDY APPLE. Make your systems open.
Click to expand...

They didn't make Kindle take their store out of the app - Apple wanted the 30% cut for in-app purchases and Amazon wasn't willing to give it. Which is why Office for iOS initially didn't have subscription options in-app, PS App doesn't have in-app store, etc.
 
Loudkid said:
But is that what people wanted and thought they were getting?
Click to expand...
Yes, except I thought they wouldn't even use NFC for Pay.

A pure software solution based on the connectivity of bluetooth low energy and cellular, that's what I thought. But I guess that it needs to be near field adds an additional layer of security. If only in the mind of the user to further ensure him, now I'm paying and now I'm not.

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Menneisyys2 said:
Sounds bad. Apple is increasingly (now: over two years) behind the bleeding edge. Heck, even the now-dead Symbian had a fully functioning, excellent NFC implementation. (I know as I use it very frequently for quick image transfers to any NFC receivers.)
Click to expand...
People don't want technology implementations, they want full-working services. Try to understand why the edge is bleeding and what kind of customers want to put wet blood in their pocket. Two years behind is the new in front of everybody else.
 
cjmillsnun said:
Why?

The authentication is as simple as holding your thumb on the home button as you touch in. You authenticate purely in the phone.
Click to expand...


IIRC, when Oyster cards were introduced on the London Underground, the criteria for the card readers was that they had to be able to process a card in 0.5 sec or less to avoid any delay at the gates. Even without human fumbling and error, I don't see TouchID as currently being able to authenticate within that time.
 
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