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Quote:
The eighteen-person team hasn't seen a single member leave for fifteen years

All jokes aside. I think it is a bad idea to have a design team that has been so static for almost a generation.

this. this is probably why we've only really had a handful of "new" macs in the past decade. it used to be they changed things up almost every refresh... now its just updated specs in the same (or slightly slimmer, ooh how innovative!) case.

macbook pro: 2008-present
mac pro/g5: 2003-2013, 2013-
imac: 2007-present
mba: unchanged
mini: 2005-2010, 2010-current
 
Quote:
The eighteen-person team hasn't seen a single member leave for fifteen years

All jokes aside. I think it is a bad idea to have a design team that has been so static for almost a generation.

I'm not ready to say it is bad, but I did wonder if a lack of fresh blood does or when it will eventually hinder them.
 
Quote:
The eighteen-person team hasn't seen a single member leave for fifteen years

All jokes aside. I think it is a bad idea to have a design team that has been so static for almost a generation.

I was wondering this myself. Do they not worry about having no young blood? Ive was a young man himself, a long time ago.
 
It almost sounds as if they believe whatever product comes through this tough process will succeed. However, I still have doubts about the watch. I'm not sure a touch-screen watch (with marketing and pricing as an upscale "timepiece") fills a need in a world where touch-screen phones exist.

There's a difference between a project coming into the design department and making sure it leaves with a good design....and a project actually created in the design department. Not sure this type of design department (without Jobs) is really in touch with the user experience.

I get the feeling that the desire for a new product at Apple outweighed the actual need for a new product. Or rather that the watch should not have been that next product. The core needs of a timepiece were sacrificed in favor of the existing phone experience.

I would rather have seen a real Apple TV or Apple home phone or other accessories.

Just like the iPad and the iPhone before it, most people don't get it until they physically use the device. Personally, I can't wait for the Apple Watch. I'm ordering one for myself and my wife on day 1. I think it'll exceed iPad sales and fall a close 2nd behind the iPhone.

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Why not.

Perspectives change every 10 - 20 years and a new look at old solutions is the never a bad idea.

Apple has done that quite alot over their years. I am just thinking that hitting the 15 year mark with out a change on the design team is probably about the limit before you need a new perspective.

They said no one ever left, not that they don't change roles and responsibilities inside the team. Also, I'm fairly certain the team wasn't 18 people strong 15 years ago. That means they have in fact added new people and new ideas, the key point is that once a person makes it to the team they don't leave.
 
But you're looking at it from a perspective where you have very little knowledge about how that 18 person team functions. From my viewpoint, the tangible results we see in record profits, all-time stock price and market cap highs and wildly successful industry-leading products tells me that however that 18 person design team operates, it is working just splendidly. You're saying they should change it up just because it's 15 years without a change and that's it. Ridiculous.

Naw...that is not my point at all.

Read the whole comment.

They didn't get where they are by not exploring new solutions to old problems, and there isn't any reason for Apple not to continue doing so now and in the future.

It is not a slight against what any design team has done until now, but they can't stay fresh forever. Any team needs new blood once in a while if they want to stay relevant.
 
How about putting some focus on the inside of the machine for a change, Ivy?
I don't sit here and stare at my computer (the Mini, which a chimp could have easily designed), I have to actually use it.
Ivy has neutered every machine he gets his skinny obsessed hands on
 
Just like the iPad and the iPhone before it, most people don't get it until they physically use the device. Personally, I can't wait for the Apple Watch. I'm ordering one for myself and my wife on day 1. I think it'll exceed iPad sales and fall a close 2nd behind the iPhone.


It's possible that I'm missing something. I will say that I never felt that way about the iPhone, iPad or Apple TV. I understood their benefits. But I'm not seeing it with the watch. There will be % of people who are hoping they discover its value AFTER they purchase it I suppose.

Just remember, how the watch is marketed and shown on display, with the screen active, is inaccurate and misleading. We know phones don't activate until we swipe them, but we have this sense that when we buy a watch we're seeing it how others will see it. With the Apple watch, everyone else will see a blank screen when it's finally on your hand.
 
It's possible that I'm missing something. I will say that I never felt that way about the iPhone, iPad or Apple TV. I understood their benefits. But I'm not seeing it with the watch. There will be % of people who are hoping they discover its value AFTER they purchase it I suppose.

Just remember, how the watch is marketed and shown on display, with the screen active, is inaccurate and misleading. We know phones don't activate until we swipe them, but we have this sense that when we buy a watch we're seeing it how others will see it. With the Apple watch, everyone else will see a blank screen when it's finally on your hand.

The value of the watch isn't how it appears to others, but how it works for the actual user. The screen will always be active when the wrist is raised to the face, that's all that matters. Also don't underestimate the value of the always on fitness tracking. That will be HUGE. It's definitely something most people won't appreciate until they use it.

I don't think it'll be hard of owners to find value in the watch. Controlling automation at home, checking appointments, text messages, etc. Those are a natural fit for the wrist.
 
Every team needs new people to generate fresh ideas. I don't think it's good for the design process to have the same people working year after year.

I had the initial gut reaction of agreeing with you, but had to check myself based on Apple's actual results.

So I'm thinking it's more about talent. The best talent renews itself - because it knows it has to.

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Enough Ive already. Get out of the spotlight and hit the gym, you'd think a world renowned designer would have more respect for his own body.

That's kind-of superficial.

----------

Well, they did get rid of Scott Forstall.

Yeah, and I fear they lost some creative tension there. Working with demanding folks is a good thing.
 
Quote:
The eighteen-person team hasn't seen a single member leave for fifteen years

All jokes aside. I think it is a bad idea to have a design team that has been so static for almost a generation.

I agree. Fresh faces bring fresh ideas. I'd hate to be the 19th guy trying to fit in over there.
 
The value of the watch isn't how it appears to others, but how it works for the actual user. The screen will always be active when the wrist is raised to the face, that's all that matters. Also don't underestimate the value of the always on fitness tracking. That will be HUGE. It's definitely something most people won't appreciate until they use it.

I don't think it'll be hard of owners to find value in the watch. Controlling automation at home, checking appointments, text messages, etc. Those are a natural fit for the wrist.

The watch is being marketed as a fashion statement. Marketed towards lovers of classic timepieces. But part of the experience of buying a watch is choosing a face that matches your personality-- because others will see it on your wrist. The Apple watch has no face for others to see. Its difficult to understand this because all the images we see of the Apple watch, and demos, show the screen active.

The bands are cool...and boy are they part of the marketing too...but no one will see these on your wrist either.
 
I'm really impressed: nobody going away... :eek:
Everybody always thinking in the same way? No discussion at all? :eek:
No news going out when new products are developed... :eek:
I'm really, really impressed... :eek:
 
Everybody knows that if Apple were *truly* determined to make and sell the best product they can, right now, they'd be skipping the dozen planned incremental iterations that they really want to sell us along the way. Welcome to the machine... Anyone for a $15,000 iWatch v1.0?
 
The watch is being marketed as a fashion statement. Marketed towards lovers of classic timepieces. But part of the experience of buying a watch is choosing a face that matches your personality-- because others will see it on your wrist. The Apple watch has no face for others to see. Its difficult to understand this because all the images we see of the Apple watch, and demos, show the screen active.

The bands are cool...and boy are they part of the marketing too...but no one will see these on your wrist either.

Apple is straddling the line between technology and fashion. That's a brilliant move that none of the other smart watch makers ever considered. While competitors expect us to look like geeks with a calculator on our wrist Apple was smart enough to realize that fashion is important as well.

I just don't think the selected watch face is the only important element. The beauty of the watch is in its overall design, not just the screen. I agree that having the screen off detracts from the fashion a little, but I don't think that is an issue for most people.

I don't understand your comment about how no one will see the watch band.
 
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Every time I read what this guy says, I always read the words slowly, and in an English accent.
 
Artists care about their work being ripped off. It's why they're artists, because they're passionate about what they do. If they didn't care about others stealing their designs, and said only "let the lawyers work it out" then they probably wouldn't be any good at what they do.

Every great Artist gets copied and that's part of what makes them great.
 
maybe he wonders about the connection between designs getting worse and ive getting fat.

I don't see a connection. Ive never used to do UI. That was Scott Forstall's job.

with the rapid releases its harder and harded not to upgrade.

I was thinking just the opposite. If you don't like this version, wait a year and you can try something else. Software support for older versions doesn't dry up THAT fast.
 
The watch is being marketed as a fashion statement. Marketed towards lovers of classic timepieces. But part of the experience of buying a watch is choosing a face that matches your personality-- because others will see it on your wrist. The Apple watch has no face for others to see. Its difficult to understand this because all the images we see of the Apple watch, and demos, show the screen active.

The bands are cool...and boy are they part of the marketing too...but no one will see these on your wrist either.

You don't think they'll give you the option of having the face on if you so choose (as a tradeoff with battery life). It is an amoled screen, so a dark screen with have a minimal consumption. Maybe you could even schedule it. Have the face on in the evening and off during work hours.
 
I don't see a connection. Ive never used to do UI. That was Scott Forstall's job.



I was thinking just the opposite. If you don't like this version, wait a year and you can try something else. Software support for older versions doesn't dry up THAT fast.

you dont have to see a connection. but why are you focusing on the ui? people obviously have differing opinions on ios7/8 and yosemite but personally i think some of the machines a few years ago were much better looking and a better mix of function and thinness.

you are right that older versions continue to work (just recently went from sl to mavericks) and that software dosent stop working just because you are on an old os.

however ios owners get pushed to update their computers os. quite a lot of the new apps i check out only seems to support the current os and perhaps the last 1-2 which in years isnt that much.
 
Sunday reading: beyond the dollars – something's wrong at Apple

Tags: gentle; happy; bubble

… Ive has famously remained out of the spotlight for much of his tenure at Apple …

… after listening to Sir Jonathan Ive speak, seeing him in interview, I struck through the most offensive part of something that I wrote a fortnight ago. The emotional response was heartfelt, but I should not have made the written response so personal, against an individual.
Now:



Sir Jonathan must bear some responsibility for what's above and below, but please: let's be fairly gentle. Whatever bubble he (and the team) are in, it can't be nice to sense it close to bursting after eighteen years. Personal insults will not encourage discussion within Apple; will not increase collaboration.

http://designmuseum.org/designers/jonathan-ive:

… I also have a sense of being accountable as we really live, sometimes pretty painfully with the consequences of what we do.

What? No software?

… a very thorough overview of Ive's interview. …

No mention of software, OS X or iOS. If a thorough overview omits or excludes software, customers should worry.

The same is true for https://twitter.com/hashtag/dm25ivelive?f=realtime – unless I'm missing something, no mention of software, OS X or iOS.

Apple, without Steve Jobs: insufficient collaboration, insufficient discussion

… "I like to work in a small team," Ive told Sudjic. …

http://designmuseum.org/designers/jonathan-ive:

… By keeping the core team small and investing significantly in tools and process, we can work with a level of collaboration that seems particularly rare. Our physical environment reflects and enables that collaborative approach. The large open studio and massive sound system support a number of communal design areas. …

I, too, worked as part of a similarly-sized team for around eighteen years. (I still work for that team, as part of a larger group.) For around a decade we enjoyed a £ multi-million building that was purpose-built for our group and one other. Emphases included innovation and collaboration.

I must be blunt:
  • the looks of Yosemite stank of contention, stank of resistance within and between teams
– the hallmarks of true collaboration are missing.

Design is not my speciality, but I find all of the following agreeable:

… a bad idea to have a design team that has been so static for almost a generation.

… I don't think it's good for the design process to have the same people working year after year.

Not talking about rapid turnover, just not to be so stagnant over 15 years. A new perspective once in a while can only help.

… hitting the 15 year mark with out a change on the design team is probably about the limit before you need a new perspective.

… wonder if a lack of fresh blood does or when it will eventually hinder them.

Debatable:

I'm pretty sure several members of the team play the role of devil's advocate. …

Such things are not enough.

… very little knowledge about how that 18 person team functions. From my viewpoint, the tangible results we see in record profits, all-time stock price and market cap highs and wildly successful industry-leading products tells me that however that 18 person design team operates, it is working just splendidly. …

I sense neither wild success nor splendid work. Please see below.

Are things really OK? Has Apple lost touch with core values?

They've got a $660 Billion Market Cap!
You can't really argue with that kind of Market Success.…

Really, we can argue.

… Competitors will follow the recipe. :)

If the HIG for Yosemite are a recipe, then smiles may be short-lived. Note the unhappy reaction to a first sighting of a Yosemite-inspired design on Mavericks.

Seems to be working out ok so far. :p

Since it's obviously been working to wild success for Apple, maybe it's not such a bad idea??

Observe the positioning of iOS 8.x and Yosemite on the graph above. If vaguely similar scores are reproducible without the constraints of vBulletin/MacRumors Forums, then my first impression will not be 'wild success'. If the scores are so excruciatingly low, then something must be wildly wrong.

It almost sounds as if they believe whatever product comes through this tough process will succeed. However, I still have doubts …

… Not sure this type of design department (without Jobs) is really in touch with the user experience.

I get the feeling that the desire for a new product at Apple outweighed the actual need for a new product. …

Too much change for the sake of change in Yosemite. End result: incoherency, inconsistencies and the OS X Human Interface Guidelines (HIG) have adopted some utter BS in a feeble attempt to gloss over what's wrong.

Well, they did get rid of Scott Forstall.

… user interface design, Ive is an expert on Design Failure.

Interesting. When looking at Yosemite design decisions one has to wonder how he thought that it is working ?

Says a guy on an Internet messageboard. …

Don't rush to dismiss the opinions of your peers. Gems can be found in unexpected places.

He is clearly constrained from saying anything that would give genuine insight into the design processes, so just utters platitudes. Apple doesn't discuss future OR past products! …

A recent publication appears to represent voices within Apple. The author used the word 'process' eleven times and portrayed a lack of discussion. That publication reinforced my perception that Yosemite is not a product of good collaboration.

Reflection

http://designmuseum.org/designers/jonathan-ive:

… It seemed to have lost what had once been a very clear sense of identity and purpose. … By re-establishing the core values … Apple again pursued a direction which was clear and different from any other company. …

What next?

… I'm sure the interaction with anyone actually working with him or socializing with him is pretty different.

Sadly, "failure" is the apparently the only thing that might convince Johnny Five that his UI design sucks. Don't adopt is the best policy. I'm sticking with Mavericks for now.

Non-adoption is understandable, but I suspect that it's not the most effective way of demonstrating to Apple that unacceptably poor software can have a lasting, very negative effect on customer loyalty.

Properly measured Net Promoter® scores should begin to demonstrate the levels of public dissatisfaction with the user interfaces to Apple's most recent operating systems.

Ultimately I'd like to see a (re)establishment of shared values that can be core to Apple; values that can also be appreciated by previously loyal customers. First, though, we really need to get the company's head out of the sand and encourage some realistic discussion …
 
Jeez. Someone had to lower the thread to Samsung bashing. Can we just leave it alone for even one article?

Ironically, Apple has made their share of blunders and still does to this day. Not every design decision they make is great either. What's fair is fair. Sometimes things seem like a good idea but after the software is out there a while it's apparent that it was not such a good idea. This happens to every company.
 
Steve Jobs and design

Steve Jobs Still Wins Plenty of Patents | MIT Technology Review (2014-11-27)

… Florian Mueller, a programmer and patent consultant in Germany who has closely followed litigation around the iPhone. He notes that many of Jobs’s patents are on designs—like the look and feel of the iPhone—not on more substantial technical advances. …

At 9to5Mac, a response:

While Florian is pretty good in his field, I totally disagree with him on Apple patents. Most of the patents are NOT just about the look of something but the technology that makes the look work. Sadly, both he and the european legal group share this idea stuck in the 1900’s. This problem affects much of european governments, sadly.

Just my opinion here, but its a different world than in the 1900’s and it keeps changing every day. Those who cannot see this are doomed to fail due to their lack of sight.
 
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