1.5 vs 1.67 PBs - maccentral suggests little difference

[panphage]

Link?

How's this?

Designed as pin-compatible replacements for Freescale's MPC7447 products, these new processors have been shown to reach speeds of 1.5 GHz.

"Have been shown to reach" seems pretty tentative and theoretical as far as marketing copy goes...I believe the folks over at Powerlogix have said that the chips aren't rated any higher than 1.4. I'll try to find the info. But still, as has been pointed out, it doesn't matter if the chips run at 1.81gigawatts, if the fsb is still stuck at 167 and the system can't utilize the doubling feature of DDR ram (both true of the 7xxx series chips) then we'll not see great performance increases.

 

[sbb155]

I am a Mac newbie, but it seems like the lack of competition to produce processors may be affecting things... On the PC side, AMD and intel are in constant competition to make the latest and greatest processors.... This competition may get products to the market faster and innovation happens sooner, despite the small market share of AMD... I don't know, I know that there is a lot of PC hostility here, but let's face it, the competition to produce components DOES drive down costs and it forces innovation....

Anyway, I am still torn on whether or not to get a new PB... the portability is great, but when a iMac G5 is cheaper in many cases, I wonder if I should just wait for a more robust upgrade.

Apple's products seem wonderful, especially software, but these new benchmarks are disappointing, unless upgrades happen every few months instead of 1x-2x a year. If upgrades happen more frequently, then the incremental increase is not nearly as disappointing.

 

[cemil]

11% increase in speed

Yes, an 11% increase in clock speed should result in a 9-10% increase in CPU-bound applications, but here's the point: very few benchmarks reflect real-world performance.

In the real world, very few applications are really that CPU-bound (except maybe encoding). Also, even when encoding, an increase in FSB would make HUGE differences due to increased ram speeds.

I'm sorry, but this update was lame. lets see: 512 MB of RAM? Should have been standard on POWERbooks years ago. A gig? that would have been an upgrade.

BT 2.0? What devices support BT 2.0, pray tell?

Shock absorber on the HD? For the ONCE that you drop your computer. Goody, the HD doesn't lose data, but your LAPPIE is screwed.

Yes, all of these things are good individually, but that doesn't change the fact that this upgrade doesn't help the pbook line very much. Consider the RIDICULOUS price gap between the ibooks and the pbooks. A SIGNIFICANTLY larger price drop would have been nice, considering Apple at this point is getting the hardware for chump change, since its ANCIENT.

I will not be buying a new powerbook until FSB speeds are up to snuff. I couldn't care less if its a G4, G5, or G18. Until we hit REAL FSB speeds which can feed the processor, I won't buy.

(still cranky)

 

[mcgarry]

... [snip]

Yes, all of these things are good individually, but that doesn't change the fact that this upgrade doesn't help the pbook line very much. Consider the RIDICULOUS price gap between the ibooks and the pbooks. ...(still cranky)

Sorry, I don't get this part. If you aren't happy with where the PBooks are, but the iBooks aren't even quite up to where the last rev. PBs were, how exactly is the gap "RIDICULOUS"? As is discussed numerous times per day, the 12" to 12" comparison is very competitive, with a real performance/features edge along with the substantial (but I would hardly say "RIDICULOUS") price increase for the PB, and the 15" and 17" offer speeds and features just not found in the iBook series. Sure, there's a premium to pay to have the best that Apple offers in a laptop, but is that crazy, or ridiculous?

I think you might be unfairly comparing the laptops to the desktops implicitly ... don't get me wrong, I agree with your overall point about Apple G4 laptop stagnation ... but within Mac laptop-land, I think comparisons should be made in the proper context. Next to an iMac/PowerMac the PowerBook looks weak, but next to the iBooks, of course the PBs are better by the specs, but I think they can hold their own on price too, of course depending on the consumer's wants/needs/budget. The PBs offer more speed and more capabilities for more money, but I'm not sure how you can properly call it a "RIDICULOUS" amount ... was there a specific comparison you had in mind, or a specific dollar amount difference you consider more than it should be in any specific case?

EDIT: to clarify, I don't think it's necessarily unfair to compare the PBs to the desktops, and in that regard, the PBs (and iBs) represent a premium for portability and little else (although that's very typical); I was specifically addressing your comparison to the iBooks

 

[combatcolin]

Funny.

The more people read about G5 or Dual G4 the more they think the technology is ready and waiting for them the next time they visit their local Apple store.

The downside of Internet sites such as Macrumors is that people have such high expectations because some company has released details of a technology 12-18 months from a retail release.

 

[El Duderino]

Did you expect better?

These performance "gains" are hardly anything, they are nothing that make it worthwhile to buy unless there is an absolute NEED. Personally I am glad I'm a year behind in my major of graphic design at college, it means I can wait a whole year a half to make my purchase. Hopefully by then there will be an update that can compete with its predosesor.

Bigger faster HD arent a big deal, besides its cheaper to get one seperate and just install it yourself, in which case the choice of 7200 RPM or even 10000 RPM is on the table, and its still $100 to upgrade the video card, I remember when it first came out it was only a $50 upgrade.

Sorry Jobs but Im not impressed and I doubt I will be until the current G4 is scrapped and we get a whole new chip. I dont care if its a G5, I really dont, I just something I can get excited about. Im jaded

 

[cemil]

Sorry, I don't get this part. If you aren't happy with where the PBooks are, but the iBooks aren't even quite up to where the last rev. PBs were, how exactly is the gap "RIDICULOUS"? As is discussed numerous times per day, the 12" to 12" comparison is very competitive, with a real performance/features edge along with the substantial (but I would hardly say "RIDICULOUS") price increase for the PB, and the 15" and 17" offer speeds and features just not found in the iBook series. Sure, there's a premium to pay to have the best that Apple offers in a laptop, but is that crazy, or ridiculous?

I think you might be unfairly comparing the laptops to the desktops ... don't get me wrong, I agree with your overall point about Apple G4 laptop stagnation ... but within Mac laptop-land, I think comparisons should be made in the proper context. Next to an iMac/PowerMac the PowerBook looks weak, but next to the iBooks, of course the PBs are better by the specs, but I think they can hold their own on price too, of course depending on the consumer's wants/needs/budget. The PBs offer more speed and more capabilities for more money, but I'm not sure how you can properly call it a "RIDICULOUS" amount ... was there a specific comparison you had in mind, or a specific dollar amount difference you consider more than it should be in any specific case?

Here's the thing. Yes, the 15 and 17" pbooks offer features above and beyond an ibook - but are those features really worth the difference? Certainly not in price. I'm sure that the CPU speed itself makes no difference to the price whatsoever(as far as apple is concerned). Lets not forget that the current incarnation of the G4 is an old processor, so we're not talking cutting-edge stuff here. The 1.67 is just an overclocked processor, so no advancements have been made, just more reliable fabs. Therefore, what exactly is the $500 difference between the ibook 12" and the pbook 12"?

Lets see:

Same resolution screen
slightly faster CPU
More RAM
Slightly better (faster, bigger) HD
Slightly better video card
BT
Yes, a few other small knick knacks.

Now, explain where the $500 difference is, except in keeping an artificial price difference to make it seem to the average consumer that the powerbook is better because it is more expensive.

Yes, the 15" offers features that the ibook doesn't. It is also $700 more than an ibook 14". Yes the Powerbook looks better, yes its a >bit< faster but is that worth $700?

I understand that Apple couldn't put better CPUs in these machines if they're not out yet. In that case, max out everything about the PowerBooks.

I would have been satisfied with this upgrade if:

REALLY upgrade the RAM. Lets face it, 512 is the bare minimum, especially in a PowerBook. A gig would have been nice.

Put SERIOUS HDs in there. Either 7200 or 5400 but DEFINITELY with 8 MB cache.

Put SERIOUS video cards in all models. 128 MB video ram standard, 256 on the top end models

That would have made this upgrade really worth it for the last model of the G4 Powerbook. Otherwise, its an incremental upgrade, and my guess is that most people will simply wait for the next real update.

I do agree that this will likely be the most stable powerbook for a while, since its the last rev of a tried-and-true architecture. That's why it should have been made into a very compelling update.

 

[NEENAHBOY]

I'd just like to take this opportunity to point out that there are people starving in third-world countries who could only DREAM about owning any type of computer, and yet you all are moaning about the "horrible" PB upgrades.

 

[1984]

For crying out loud. Must it be said again?

Yes, the G4 is reaching the end. That's why they added other features and dropped the price! There's more to upgrade than just the CPU, you know.

Great. So the PowerBooks finally get features that have long been standard on other laptops. Do you know how long the competition has had DVD+RW burners and 5400RPM hard drives? These should have been standard on the previous PowerBooks. Now the competition has dual-layer burning. Always a step behind with the PowerBooks. The price drops were not nearly enough. They are still ovepriced for what they offer.

 

[therevolution]

Great. So the PowerBooks finally get features that have long been standard on other laptops. Do you know how long the competition has had DVD+RW burners and 5400RPM hard drives? These should have been standard on the previous PowerBooks. Now the competition has dual-layer burning. Always a step behind with the PowerBooks. The price drops were not nearly enough. They are still ovepriced for what they offer.

Then stop whining and buy another laptop.

 

[mcgarry]

Cemil- I think the $500 number is a bit disingenous. At least equalize the HD and RAM, and add BT, then it's a $300 difference. At the $500 point, you have noticeably reduced functionality. Like I said, that's still a substantial difference, I just don't think it's ridiculous. The $300 buys you (once more for good luck):

- faster processor/FSB
- faster HD
- faster video card
- twice the VRAM
- true clamshell mode and screen spannign w/o hack
- the little stuff: new trackpad, BT2, audio-in, HD drop protection, arguably nicer keyboard
- all in a slightly smaller, lighter case

Now, personally I can see that being $300 well-spent for some people, again depending on needs/wants/budget. What I don't see it as is "ridiculous," but I guess one person's "substantial" can be another's "ridiculous." My main point was that if the PB is so inadequate, what's that make the iBook that doesn't have any of those things? Cheaper, yes, and even more distressingly behind what can be had in a desktop. Its FSB is even slower than the dreaded 167 MHz. I am NOT denying that Apple doesn't do this all on purpose, of course they do, they're the ones setting the prices, I'm just saying that I think it can be fair depending, again, on one's needs/wants/budget. That doesn't apply to you at the moment, fair enough.

As for the 15" and 17", I don't think a direct comparison can really be made in the way you want to. I can't configure an iBook to be close to a 17" PB, except that they both use a G4 and other such basic commonalities. I'm just saying it's all about context. The only thing to say with the larger ones, even moreso than with the 12" is, pay more to get more or less to get less. How much more and less, and what that means, I think means very different things if you compare within the laptop line, where I don't think it looks ridiculous, or when you compare to what the same $ buys in a desktop, where by raw specs it can indeed look ridiculous (thus the portability premium). Now if we move on to looking at these PBs and IBs in a PC laptop context, that's maybe when Apple really might start looking bad .... plenty of threads on that.

 

[1984]

I'll repeat it again with some more clarification then. So what did you expect, an 11% increase in CPU clock speed giving a performance increase of 20% or something, for CPU bound benchmarks?

I expect more of an increase when taking into consideration that not only is the CPU faster but it also has a faster hard drive and more memory. If they were to do a proper upgrade the 15" would have 128MB graphics memory and digital in/out across the board. Oh, and for $2000 and you don't even get a freakin Superdrive? Are you kidding me? What year is this? That's just crap. Instead of wasting time, money and resources with this ridiculous upgrade they could have simply dropped the price much more significantly on the previous models and come out with something that's actually worth while when the 7448 G4 or G5 is ready.

 

[cemil]

McGarry,

While the cost of those upgrades seems good, the thing is - the INCREMENTAL cost of manufacturing to apple is nothing. Apple would probably still make a profit off of PowerBooks at 999.

At least with the iBook you're getting what you pay for: A value computer. With the PowerBook, you're not getting what you pay for: A truly mobile workstation. You're paying a 50% premium (999->1499) for some small upgrades which cost Apple nothing. If they wanted to make the PowerBook appealing, price it starting at 1299. Then those extra features start to be worth it.

Basically, with the exception of BT, the only differences between the iBook and PowerBook lines are component upgrades.

Faster CPU
Faster Video
More Ram
Faster HD

Nothing else really separates the lines. (well, apart from shinyness).

I agree though, we should definitely NOT compare ibook or powerbook to PC lappies, at which point they both look pathetic (and I'm an Apple fan). The next person to tell me that a G4 1.5 is anything CLOSE to a P-M 1.5 gets shot. Honestly.

 

[1984]

Then stop whining and buy another laptop.

Don't need one enough so I'll wait as long as I can.

Sounds like someone doesn't like it when people disagree with them. You must think your opinion is the only one that matters. That's quite an ego you have going there. God forbid someone doesn't think everything Apple releases is gold. Get a grip. This is the real world and Apple dropped the ball plain and simple. Deal with it.

 

[BornAgainMac]

"exception of the Compressor MPEG2 encode which was fastest on a 1.5GHz model for unclear reasons."

Cool... My old Powerbook is faster than your new Powerbook.

 

[risc]

Well I just ordered a PowerBook G4 1.67 GHz 15" Super Drive through work using salary sacrifice, I got it at wholesale minus GST so it ended up costing nearly $200 less than the 15" Combo Drive model you wont see me complaining at all, I'm upgrading from an iBook G4 1 GHz (Rev A) this will be a fantastic notebook for me, the best I've ever owned. I've got a Power Mac G5 Dual 1.8 GHz here if I need real processing beef, but for the money I think I scored a fantastic notebook. Like everyone I'd love to see a PowerBook G4 Dual Core, or a G5 but nothing I've read points to them being available anytime soon so I'll enjoy my notebook when it turns up in a couple of weeks, and now my sister can enjoy the old iBook G4 she switched by accident but she loves the hardware/OS.

 

[CaptainCaveMann]

Whoever said these chips are overclocked is sadly mistaken. A while back a guy on here posted an awesome point on the different g4 chips and it started with this: The question was are the 1.33 the 1.5 the same chip but one is just overclocked. The answer was no. The chips come off the line all making different numbers. Some come out making 1.23 some come out making 1.45 some come out making 1.67. It all varies. These chips are not overclocked.

 

[mcgarry]

Cemil- I guess I'll agree to disagree. And I'm still not biting on the $500 figure. For $300, I really think those are wise upgrades that most people should prefer if they can afford it. If not, sure, the iBook is a great value, but irrespective of price, just by the specs, it's even more hobbled than the PB-- which is what you were originally complaining about.

Do those upgrades cost Apple $300? Probably not, but do they cost something? yes, 5400rpm HDs are still in fact more expensive than 4200, etc. Apple is not bound to make prices exactly reflective of component costs; it's just not that simple.

Hey, 12" to 12", it's a 20% FSB increase, a 20% MHz increase, 22% HD rpm increase, 200% of VRAM, (just numbers, I know, not directly translatable to performance, but bear with me)-- plus all the extras and still (somehow) a faster video card -- for a 21% price increase. Sounds alright to me.

Once more, I am NOT arguing that this was some super-update and every Apple price is unquestionable, I am arguing that the price discrepancy to the iBooks is not necessarily as ridiculous as it might seem

 

[CaptainCaveMann]

I'd just like to take this opportunity to point out that there are people starving in third-world countries who could only DREAM about owning any type of computer, and yet you all are moaning about the "horrible" PB upgrades.

Thats a great point. I totally agree.

 

[cemil]

Cemil- I guess I'll agree to disagree.

Once more, I am NOT arguing that this was some super-update and every Apple price is unquestionable, I am arguing that the price discrepancy to the iBooks is not necessarily as ridiculous as it might seem

I have no trouble agreeing to disagree Basically we're looking at it from opposite sides of the same coin.

Now, how about this link:
Two Finger Scrolling

That link will enable the new "two finger scrolling" on older powerbooks. It's just a software feature anyways, not a hardware one.

Just thought everyone might like a little piece of the new pie.

 

[SiliconAddict]

Really shows how lackluster of an update this really was...

And the previous one and the previous one and.....The original PowerBook was the bomb at the time of its release. Pity Apple or the companies it CHOOSES to provide the chips can't keep up with the rest of the industry.

But at least everyone can wrap themselves in blanket of an excuse that it runs OS X and has the iApps.

 

[El Duderino]

I'd just like to take this opportunity to point out that there are people starving in third-world countries who could only DREAM about owning any type of computer, and yet you all are moaning about the "horrible" PB upgrades.

yes and they are in third world contries with no reason to own a computer (what are they going to use it for,soltiare?) and i doubt that they have a starbucks on the corner to provide a WiFi hot spot. on the other hand this is what we have, i have college and college expences which involves me having to buy an apple computer so im going to B!tch and complain till my face turns blue and i get a computer thats worth the amount of money im spending on it.

(ranting concluded)

 

[jsw]

But at least everyone can wrap themselves in blanket of an excuse that it runs OS X....

That's the whole point. It runs OS X. The only qualm I have with the PBs is that the screen res should be better. Whatever. I'll deal with it. But all those who feel that Wintel laptops offer better value are free to use them instead. That's not me trying to troll. Please - use them if you prefer. Buy one and install Linux if you'd like. Lots of people are very happy with their Dell laptops. I have one through work with a fantastic 1920x1200 screen. I never turn it on. My sole reason for buying a PB will be to run OS X when I'm not at my home office. And they run OS X an OS X apps very nicely. So, for customers like me, the PBs are a fine value, as the alternative is an immensely long power cord.

 

[rosalindavenue]

It looks like it's more like a 9% increase in performance and that's with more ram and a faster 5400rpm drive too. Yikes. It really goes to show how bad the current G4 processor is. As I recall the 7447B is actually slower (at the same speeds) than the 7447 with the L2 cache disabled. The larger L2 chache is the only thing that makes it faster. Terrible. Shameful. Disgraceful. Awful. Quite possibly the worst upgrade ever.

OH NO! WORST-- UPGRADE-- EVAR!!!

 

[jsw]

yes and they are in third world contries with no reason to own a computer (what are they going to use it for,soltiare?) and i doubt that they have a starbucks on the corner to provide a WiFi hot spot. on the other hand this is what we have, i have college and college expences which involves me having to buy an apple computer so im going to B!tch and complain till my face turns blue and i get a computer thats worth the amount of money im spending on it.

(ranting concluded)

If the PBs were not worth the amount of money people are spending, they wouldn't buy them. But they do buy them. So, therefore, they're worth the price. Simple economics.

What is it that the current PBs are failing to offer you? My 1999 Lombard G3 does 90% of what I need, and it's over five years old. Why is it that you need to buy a Mac? Buy a Dell. Because, honestly, no amount of your bitching and complaining will have any effect on the PowerBook lineup.