1.6GB firewire Any ideas what is going with it?

Discussion in 'Mac Pro' started by hugodrax, Jul 15, 2010.

  1. hugodrax macrumors 6502a

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    #1
    Is this already completed and expected to arrive at the 2011 desktops? It seems to be finalized but none of the new iMacs carry it and I do not think any 1.6GB firewire cards or drive enclosures exist yet.
     
  2. deconstruct60 macrumors 604

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    #2
    There is zero movement in bringing this to personal computers.

    More likely going to get used in embedded applications in automotive or aviation than on any computer or peripheral that you buy at a normal store. USB 3.0 removes almost all of the advantages it might have had. Target mode booting drives isn't going to push a platform forward all by itself. Speed , isochronous, etc. .... alternative exist now.
     
  3. hugodrax thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #3
    But USB3 relies on the host CPU right? and it does not support daisy chaining? or direct device to device communications without requiring the host to intercede.

    Even FW400 was still faster than USB2 480. So it seems like FW is still superior in terms of the technology. I also heard a new FW is in the works that does 6.4GB.

    I still like Firewire compared to USB it would be a shame to see the inferior technology end up winning.
     
  4. deconstruct60 macrumors 604

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    #4
     
  5. Hellhammer Moderator

    Hellhammer

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    #5
    FireWire is created by Apple so it's likely that we'll see it in Macs first. It was never popular in PCs due eSATA. Seeing that USB 3.0 is superior compared to FW 1600 and even 3200, I would rather pick USB 3.0 and LightPeak after that. It's not nice to pay FW tax when buying, they cost pretty nice extra
     
  6. Roman23 macrumors 6502

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    #6
    My thoughts on firewire 1600 and 3200..

    Aint' going to happen.. why? Remember Steve when he brought out the 2009 or was it 2008? macbook and macbook pros? NO FIREWIRE right?? WHat makes you think he will bring it back now? and the report of it being on the proposed 2010 mac pro is nothing but pure fantasy in its purest form..

    No reliable information exists on this at all.. Most rumors end up as fantasy tales.. wonderful around the campfire on a warm summer's nite.. I also have thoughts on the Westmere and Gulftown cpus as ALSO not being truly very significant as at best.. they are UPGRADES for our 2009 mac pros and don't warrant a new case, new design, etc... Sandy Bridge, however when available, WILL BE and this is probably going to happen in 2011 sometime.

    As of right now after searching for viable proof of the validity of fw1600 or fw3200, none exist.. and as you say, it would most likely be in micro electronics and or government based systems.. I don't believe it will be in a new mac pro should it come out..

    I am sure I am going to be flamed as everyone wants to defend the rumor, but until I personally know for sure, as I do have a very good friend who works at my local apple store and he is a manager and genius(he works on PC's also at home), and once I get this information... I will pass it along.. until then.. the information we have thus far is only rumors with no proof or validity at all to them.. Anyone can start a rumor... I can say: "Hey guys, just got back from the Apple store and spoke with my friend and he told me that the 2010 mac pros are going to have FW3200, USB 3.0 etc.. and yes... the gulftown cpus!! - Its going to be around end of August.. HERE IS MY PROOF"

    The above statement IS an example of TRUE and valid points as I would be providing the proof showing you that it will happen.. but not posting a link or providing anything else is to be treated as just a fantasy or rumor as you take it.

    Now, who would you believe? If my friend provided me proof of this happening in VIVID color and validity to it, would you believe me or would you believe those who keep posting rumors and not providing any proof at all, just words and air?
     
  7. Warbitrary macrumors regular

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    #7
    Edit: just to make things clear, disregard this post, it's nonsense.

    Firewire 1600 might be faster than USB 3, as far as I can tell.

    The best figure I have seen for USB 3 real world transfer speed is a claim by LaCie that their hard drive can deliver 110MB/s:
    http://www.lacie.com/ca/products/product.htm?pid=11495

    FW 400/800 typically delivers 70-80% of sustained throughput, so assuming FW 1600 is similar, speeds would clock between 140MB/s and 160MB/s.

    If anyone has some real world benchmarks show USB 3 is faster than 110MB/s, please post. Theoretical speed mean nothing, at least for USB 3.


    I'm still unsure if Apple will adopt FW 1600/3200 in any new computers, so I'll believe it when I see it.


    Edit: Western Digital claims a 5x increase in speed, so if I use 25MB/s as a sustained speed for USB 2, than would make 125MB/s for USB 3. In the end I think we'll have to get some real work benchmarks because I don't really trust HD vendors.

    Edit 2: It just occured to me, HD vendors may be honest and stating the max speed of the USB 3/HDD combo, which is likely limited to the speed of the HDD. So disregard my post, there are too many unknown variables.
     
  8. Hellhammer Moderator

    Hellhammer

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    #8
    That's the limit of the actual hard drive, not the interface. FW800 is fine for most people as single mechanical hard drive cannot provide sequential speeds of over ~120MB/s (real world test) though peak speeds may easily achieve 200MB/s. However, the good thing about USB 3.0 and FW1600/3200 is that you can use SSD's full potential as those can speed over 300MB/s plus you can have multiple HDs (and RAID) in one port and experience the full speed of HDs rather than being capped by the interface.
     
  9. deconstruct60 macrumors 604

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    #9
    Errr.... already did 10 hours before your post. The techage link in post #4 above. A benchmark showing rate of 210MB/s with a SSD.


    You can't use spinning hard drives to test the speed of USB 3.0. USB 3.0 tops out around 500-600MB/s. There is no spinning hard drive that goes that fast.

    Whereas you can get hard drives that pump out 190MB/s which would come close to saturating FW1600.
     
  10. Warbitrary macrumors regular

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    #10
    Yeah sorry about that, I guess I was still half-asleep when I wrote my post.
     
  11. 300D macrumors 65816

    300D

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    #11
    FW1600 is obsolete. FW3200 has been available for 2 years. The problem is nobody wants it, the majority of people (incorrectly) think USB 3.0 will be faster.

    Actually LightPeak will (the crime, committed by a man, of forcing another person to have sexual intercourse with him without their consent and against their will) USB and FW once Intel makes it available.
     
  12. Hellhammer Moderator

    Hellhammer

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    #12
    Just because FW3200 has been announced doesn't mean that it's actually available. I did a quick search and found zero external HDs with it or even a motherboard or PCIe card with it. In fact, I found ZERO products with FW3200. How does that make it "available"? Can you show us some products that actually have it?

    Are there any real world FW3200 vs USB 3.0 tests out yet?
     
  13. 300D macrumors 65816

    300D

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    #13
    There are several military applications.

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Hellhammer Moderator

    Hellhammer

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    #14
    I.e. it's unavailable as there are no products with it that everyone can buy. Military might already have LightPeak 4.0 which has speed of 10Pb/ns :p
     
  15. deconstruct60 macrumors 604

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    #15
    FW 1600 being "obsolete" and having no products shipping in significant volume is an indicator that FW3200 can easily follow the exact same course. If there was no huge uptake to 1600 from 800 why will there be one for 800 to 3200 ? What was the root cause of lack of demand?


    FW3200 is already too slow to run two 200+ MB/s SSDs in RAID 0 on. If it currently has no headroom what kind of traction does it have for the future?
    SATA III's 6.0 Gbps already exceeds it (given the devices attached are going to generally be in the 3.0 and below Gbps range. ) Firewire3200 would have been great if it were widely deploy before (or minimally concurrently with) SAS and SATA II 3.0 Gbps devices becoming widespread. Being widespread has already occurred and they are still working on next gen FW demos.

    Many people think USB 3.0 will be more broadly present on most systems in 2-3 years. That is a much bigger factor than just only being faster. There is nothing supporting whether even FW800 would grow in distribution breath, let alone the 1600 and 3200 variations.

    Firewire 3200 is in search of a "killer" application use in the personal computer space. If point to storage drives, then eSATA is faster and more useful in some dimensions because can easily propagate SMART info since it is part of SATA. (it is not so great at standardize plug and play which is why USB 3.0 pragmatically has an opening) There are several competitors on throughput speed. More power for drives then USB 3.0? Significant number of drives are getting more low powered. 1080 HD Video ... no unique advantage other than being firewire. Audio has even less bandwidth increase driving issues.

    There are some better than HD video cameras, but that is just driving into a smaller and smaller niche area. USB 3.0 will work for decent fraction of those also. The narrower the niche area the more likely folks will create their own speciality protocol that solves just that problem.


    FW3200 has been finished as a standard for 2 years. There have not been parts available for 2 years. Those are two significantly different states. The first tech demo anywhere was done publicly in Nov 2009 ( Dap press release folks commonly link to in these discussions. ) That is less than a year ago and it was a demo.

    FW3200 isn't going to completely disappear. Even "obsolete" FW1600 may appear in some vision/embedded solutions. The question is more so will it be a standard socket commonly present on Mac computers. That's likely no , unless some new commonly useful application comes along. Mainstream Audio/Video is not it.




    LightPeak likely won't do FW directly. It will also extend the legacy protocols it transports further into time more so than remove or decimate them. Your not likely to see large number of native lightpeak native devices.
    Much more likely to see devices that severe as aggregators so than can just use one cable to connect to devices.
     

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