Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
beej

You another F1 fan aswell?? Okay who's your favourite Driver, Team ever!??

keep in mind though there's already 2 Schumi Snr fans here!! I look forward to talking Macs and F1 with you and Ensign!!:D

sjs with regards to the current iMac and sub $1000 problems..... my view is that they should keep the old iMac and do upgrades on it for the next 12 months until the price of the current iMac falls to a lower price! then consign the sucker to the Apple Museum!!

As Ensign said the cheap 500mhz iMac is perfect for people who wish to enter the Mac world, its cheap enough to not be a risk buying and expensive enough so people don't laugh at it! And with minor upgrades over the next 12 months, would make it an even better purchase!!;)
 
Schumi Rules, do you miss Murry at all? I thought I would but I haven't much!

The 500mhz Mac is very useful for people like me (techie) who can use them at work for FTP machines, Font Servers, Distiller Servers and Toast macs. Cheap enough to not be noticed by bosses and still alot of performance in OS9.

Ensign
 
Hmmmmmm

Can't say I really miss Murray, I thought I may do when something happened and he'd scream into the mike, but I quite like Brundell, he's quite a knowledgeable chap..... and got a dry sense of humour!! :D

Although murrays best was at Hungary in 1997 or maybe 1998, a car was going round the last corner of the lap, and he just went straight off the track like a right pratt!!

"Oh no, he's run out of talent!!" Murray retorted, it just suited the mood of the moment so well!! :p :p :p

Schumi Snr's mid stint though at Brazil was fantastic, he just put his foot down and put fastest lap after fastest lap....... pure poetry in motion!!

The iMac is still a handy little machine, sure it's not as fast as the current machines, but is ideal for a 'My First Mac' kind of thing!!!:D
 
Originally posted by sjs
All of you brilliant strategic thinkers have pointed out that:
CRT's are old tech; a 17" CRT is big; it would take a redesign...etc.
You all have a firm grasp on the obvious.

That still leaves the underlying need unmet.

There is a huge group of PC users that Steve would like to convert. The cheapest new iMac is $1400 plus you need more RAM and you may have tax or shipping...now your cheapest offering is $1500+.

So since my concept is "never going to happen" (and you may be right)...what is Apple going to do about the $1000 market?

Keep the current old iMac? Bump the speed?

Or drop it and hope component prices fall to eventually get a G4 LCD iMac down to $1000?

If I made decisions for Apple, I would do some market research to verify the following idea: offer A LOW END MAC THAT DOES NOT INCLUDE A MONTITOR AND IS A CLOSED SYSTEM, call it the iBrick.

This would target users that have very minimal computer needs: email/web, games, and very limited interested in application software. I'm talking about Grandma and Grandpa and people with very limited interest in computing or very very limited budgets. And BTW, there are millions of idle used CRT's out there. Apple could possibly give away used CRT's. I'm talking about a $500 or less computer.

The iBrick (project name, not the actual product name) would be very cheap, very feature limited, and be made to sell in very large numbers to increase market share. It would look like a large but somewhat stylish brick (or some other shape but inexpensive form factor), featuring a low end CPU, adequate RAM with limited expansion potential, a modest hard drive, a cheap video card, cheap speakers, CD-ROM drive, USB/Firewire ports, Ethernet, phone port, and a VGA port for an external monitor.

The iBrick would not overlap the iMac or PowerMac lines. Anybody willing to spend over $1200 for an iMac, given its less than astronomical performance and features, is not obsessed with price. People who buy the low end PowerMac are buying performance, expandability, and flexibility. The iBrick is a take it or leave it closed system, a disposable Mac. Its the affordable Mac that you either wouldn't otherwise get, the nth Mac for the household, and/or its the 'starter' Mac for someone with little experience and little compulsion to explore the personal computing universe thoroughly.

Eirik
 
Originally posted by sjs
There is a huge group of PC users that Steve would like to convert.

steve and co. is more interested in making a profit than winning more users. You dno't make money by selling the most products, you make the most money by selling as many units as possible at as high a profit margin as possible. simply having a $1000 computer does not mean a bunch more people will convert. apple's had a $1000 machine for a while now. considering that it would probably drive some people who would have bought the higher margin machines to buy the low end instead, thats even mroe money lost. You see, its much more complicated than simply having a low price machine to win converts. If you don't make any money on doing so, a company has no business doing it. Apple is responsible only to its shareholders, who obviously want apple to make money, not become ubiquitous but unprofitable.
 
Ain't gonna happen

There is absolutely no way Jobs is going to bring out a G3 iMac with a 17 inch CRT. First, it would be a step backwards--iMacs have now been upgraded to G4 processors, and once the G5 is released, the G3 will be officially retired.

Second, the math doesn't work out. I have taken the following prices for the components that would go into the "new" G3 iMac from amazon.com:

17" Monitor - $200
60 GB HD - $140
DVD-R - $400
256 RAM - $150

Of course, these are retail prices, and even if Apple got them, say, 20% cheaper, the total price would come out to be $712 (i.e. 80% x $890). This does not include the cost of other components including the processor, motherboard, fans, the special iMac case, and, of course, the design that this would require. Assuming Apple wants to earn a 30% margin on this, if it wants to sell it for $1,000, it would have to earn $700, and we can already see that the four components themselves already cost this much. Add in the other stuff (processor, design, etc.), and the cost alone could easily drift above the $1,000 limit.

Third, introducing a new iMac would dilute the current new iMac campaign. After all, why release something that would signify "the death of the CRT" and wow the world on a new design only to introduce something that is not only bulky but slower?

That's my $0.02 on why a new G3 iMac is not going to happen.
 
Re: Ain't gonna happen

Originally posted by macktheknife
There is absolutely no way Jobs is going to bring out a G3 iMac with a 17 inch CRT. First, it would be a step backwards--iMacs have now been upgraded to G4 processors, and once the G5 is released, the G3 will be officially retired.

Second, the math doesn't work out. I have taken the following prices for the components that would go into the "new" G3 iMac from amazon.com:

17" Monitor - $200
60 GB HD - $140
DVD-R - $400
256 RAM - $150

Third, introducing a new iMac would dilute the current new iMac campaign. After all, why release something that would signify "the death of the CRT" and wow the world on a new design only to introduce something that is not only bulky but slower?

That's my $0.02 on why a new G3 iMac is not going to happen.

hehehe... and the old iMac just isn't part of Steve's new fashion sense... to curvy and wild :)
 
Originally posted by sjs
All of you brilliant strategic thinkers have pointed out that:
CRT's are old tech; a 17" CRT is big; it would take a redesign...etc.
You all have a firm grasp on the obvious.

That still leaves the underlying need unmet.

There is a huge group of PC users that Steve would like to convert.



You would need a large screen iMac that takes full size AGP and PCI cards,
or a cheap tower. And about five to ten more westlakes and aspyrs. And about 4000 "IT professionals" seeded with free top of the line macs.

The new bottom tier really is the flat panel iMac, but the fifteen inch iMacs will hang around too. Perhaps they will have a flap on the side to install a gaming card, but you are not likely to see many exterior redesigns, just faster chips inside the bubblemacs. The gamers at the low end will go to consoles.

The next wave of conversion will probably be via a telephony iApp which will get mom and pop businesses to buy them as Voicemail/ mail order taking kiosks and cashregisters. How about something that grabs and logs the incoming caller ID of your bluetooth cellphone, and pulls up a customer database file ?
 
I like the iBrick idea...not the name of course. How come with Apple the pro buyers get to choose their own monitor, but "consumer" buyers have to take the built in 15" CRT (old mac) or 15" LCD (new mac)?

Here's my idea for a $1000 computer:

Sell the new bottom iMac with no arm or screen for about $900.
Make available a choice of 15 or 17" LCDs ($1399 and $1699).

That would be pretty cool...you'd just be buying a white base (looks a bit like airport) and hook up your existing monitor. Or would there be a problem with digital vs analog signals?
 
Re: That's not far off

Originally posted by iGAV
The Cube specs..........:p :p :p

Hey iGAV,

When Apple introduced the LCD iMac, I thought they should resurrect a cheap but somewhat stylish Cube. Thanks for pointing this out! :cool:

People are not just buying a personal computer when they buy an iMac, they're buying something incredibly cool: the Mercedes of low-end computing.

A low-end, closed architecture Mac, with no monitor, would be the Chrysler/Dodge of low-end computing with all of the simplicity, elegance, and productivity of a Mac.

To make my point a little more clear, the iBrick (I wouldn't think of actually calling it that. I just don't feel like thinking of a clever Steve Jobsian name.) would fill a void in the Apple product line up. There would be very little cannibalism of other Apple products due to the iBrick, particularly if the components are notably differentiated from the iMac.

Also, depending upon some detailed market research (conjoint analysis), I would endeavor to equip the iBrick with low-end, cheap components so I could still enjoy my target margin at a price point near $500. If Dell and Gateway can sell fairly full-featured beige boxes with monitors around $600 to $700, Apple ought to be able to get close.

BTW, this unit should not do DVD, period! It would NOT need a fast CD-ROM. It would not need a fast large hard drive. A G3 would help differentiate it from the iMac and low-end PowerMac, although a G4 ought to be considered (w.r.t. the conjoint analysis) if there would be a significant unit volume benefit on G4 production that would benefit the entire Mac product line. I do not have the benefit of decision-making data to conclusively dismiss the G4 but it probably wouldn't help (just a guess) the overall product line earnings (net).

Eirik
 
Wintels still come with Celerons and Pentium 3s. A Celeron is half P2 and half P3 for heavens sake! They do this so they can have a low end model.

That's why Apple will speed bump the G3 to 1 ghz and more and it will be VERY adequate for non-pro users, especially since that iMac won't be offered with DVD-R.

The only real question here is whether it will be in an old iMac case or something newer that allows people to get a bigger screen and yet get entry into mac-life for $1000.
 
Love the iBrick iDea. It makes a lot of sense. But it shuld be a G4, if a low speed one, like 500 mhz, because of ma osX

I see this: 500mhz G4 / 10 GB HD / Geforce 2MX or equivalent / CDRW / 128 RAM. All in a cylinder, whtever color, blck silver, white (chrome!) that is the diameter of a cd, with the cd drive on top.

$899 if not the G4, then at least 700 or 800 mhz G3
 
The iBrick is what the Cube should have been. When I first heard rumors of the cube (something that fit in a eight inch box, I thought they were finally going to go for the business market (who may already have monitors they wish to use).

But when does an iBrick become an Xbox instead? Don't forget there is that segment of the market biting on the 500 -1000 buck range.

Just redesign it so the memory and the hard drive are accessible for upgrades and give it a zif socket CPU

Let them clump together to go in a server rack. (although I think the servers should have multiple CPU space per motherboard.
 
I have not the time at the moment to read the whole thread so sorry if someone has already written this.

I think the issue with the different types of macs that we would like to see is answered in Apple's history. Remember the times before Steve came back on the scene and Apple and a computer to suit almost every possible situation. If so, you would remember the trouble it caused Apple financially. Unfortunately, it just can not be done if the company is to stay profitable.
:(
 
Originally posted by madamimadamtimallen
I think the issue with the different types of macs that we would like to see is answered in Apple's history. Remember the times before Steve came back on the scene and Apple and a computer to suit almost every possible situation. If so, you would remember the trouble it caused Apple financially. Unfortunately, it just can not be done if the company is to stay profitable.
:(

A manufacturer/retailer must match its product assortment with its target market's expectations. Ultimately, Apple's target market is driven by earnings.

Apple has been targeting the upper end of the personal computer market out of expediency, because Mac's were losing its differentiation from other makers, particularly with low-end consumers. MacOS X and the iApplications have changed that and it won't last forever, not with Bill Gate's around.

So, Apple must not make the classic mistake that many manufacturers and retailers have made repeatedly. Harley Davidson, General Motors, and Xerox, all neglected the low ends of their respective markets. This allowed Japanese competitors to make very significant market share gains in low-end (Or, in Apple's case, Apple is squandering an opportunity to steal market share from the others.) motorcycles and later encroach upon Harley Davidson's upper end. Though, Harley is in good shape now because of its incredible Brand Loyalty, it would have greater market dominance today had it not let new competitors establish beach heads at the low-end and then creep upward. The same applies to Xerox in not pursuing small copiers. General Motors utterly neglected the low-end and found itself struggling to penetrate a market with entrenched Japanese auto makers.

Apple has a golden opportunity to steal market share because of this differentiatiion and the perception (which is only what matters) that a Mac is simpler to use and has fewer problems. Simplicity and reliability are very important to low-end consumers because they tend to be less computer literate than those at the upper end.

A large percentage of computer buyers are satisfied with low-end computers. A large percentage of these consumers are not concerned with compatability with their office. And, the Internet has knocked down many barriers for Apple as well, particularly as web surfing and email are significant drivers for low-end consumers.

Apple's lowest end model is priced at $799, the old CRT iMac. Dell, Gateway, and the others offer comparably priced models with significantly more features. Why do consumers buy this CRT iMac today? I wish I had some credible market data rather than speculation. I suspect the novelty of this unit has worn off dramatically. Though its does look way more cool than competing products so the style edge is not completely lost. However, the low-end typically is targeting newbies and customers buying their nth PC. Such consumers are considerably more price sensitive than higher end consumers and less driven to buy 'style'. I'd like to see what a sound conjoint analysis would show us in terms of market share and earnings for CRT iMac versus iBrick as well as the two combined. Remember, price elastisity (aversion to perceived high prices) is much higher at the low end.

The CRT in the old iMac adds costs, which thins margins, in several ways: form factor, storage, inventory, and opportunity cost of capital. On the other hand, it saves costs in sparing Apple from worrying about 3rd party monitor drivers and support. However, all these drivers are relatively easily ported from Linux to MacOS X. And low-end consumers will generally be satisfied with generic drivers anyway. So, I wouldn't expect much trouble with 3rd party monitors in the way of technical support.

I must confess, however, that my idea for the iBrick was based partly on the assumption that the CRT iMac would be discontinued. As the above two paragraphs imply, there would be some cannibalism from the iBrick onto the CRT iMac sales. However, given the lower manufacturing and operations costs, Apple should be able to more easily enjoy fatter margins with the iBrick than with the CRT iMac.

Additionally, 15" and 17" CRT's are not only commodities to those that manufacture them, but they are also commodities to OEM's like Apple that resell them. Meaning, for every dollar that Apple spends on a CRT for an iMac, Apple realizes a relatively small return or margin on that investment. It effectively brings down Apple margins as a percentage on average. Not a good thing for share holders!

Let's not forget opportunity cost, low-end consumers being highly price elastic, means that the CRT iMac would sell considerably fewer units than an iBrick. Only a detailed conjoint and production/operations analysis could absolutely confirm higher earnings. But, I'm very confident that the iBrick would generate greater earnings for Apple as well as generate greater market share and hence greater software diversity and mindshare.

And let's not forget another market consideration, a significant percentage (supposition) of low-end consumers prefer a 17" CRT to a 15" CRT enough to make a decision-making difference. In the case of elderly with poor eyesight, this can be a huge factor. My father didn't want an iMac for that reason alone.

The iBrick expands the market segment at the lower end by giving consumers greater flexibility with monitor selection as well as lowering the low-end Mac price point into a larger pool of potential buyers.

So, I would seriously consider killing the CRT iMac. But, even if Apple kept it, I do not believe the availability of both a CRT iMac and an iBrick would generate adverse product assortment conflict, in other words: confusion.

One last element to consider in product assortment (the product line) is manufacturing/operations. Obviously, a more complex assortment can increase production costs on average and lead to diminishing returns targeting discrete market segments. At some point, an assortment becomes too complex.

The iBrick concept is premised on low-cost. Someone earlier suggested that Apple simply sell iMac domes without the arm and monitor. While this idea has obvious benefits in terms of production, it might generate assortment dissonance and even incite pressure to close the price gap between the LCD iMac and the iBrick because the difference between the two units could be rationalized as simply a piece of steel and an LCD, undermining the value of the LCD iMac's style and novelty. No, the iBrick should have a considerably different form factor from that of the LCD iMac.

That doesn't mean that they cannot share common components, however. To further differentiate between the iBrick and the iMacs, I wouldn't offer CD-RW or DVD-R for the iBrick. Besides, low-end consumers are apt to be less interested in those features anyway. Again, a conjoint analysis would quantify this very effectively so a smart product assortment decision could be made. I'd also look at other ways to differentiate the iBrick from the iMac in terms of features/components.

The years before Steve Jobs returned to Apple did indeed feature a confusing, overlapping product assortment for the Mac product line. I personally recall the confusion among consumers and sales clerks. It was bad enough trying to debunk negative myths and truths about Mac's in general only to further complicate sales with an incoherent product assortment.

I do not believe adding the iBrick to the Mac product line would unduely complicate it, with or without continued production of the CRT iMac. If anything, the current Mac product line has a giant hole that ought to be filled to maximize Apple's market share and earnings. The iBrick would greatly appeal to the price sensitive low-end consumer market yet add greater choice and enable them to re-use their existing CRT's.

Well, there I go again, I set out to tell the time and described how to build a watch.

Cheers,

Eirik
 
Damn that's along post. I had to take a cut lunch :D


completely off topic
Sorry to get off the point, but have a look at some of Murray Walkers quotes... they're hilarious!

http://www.worldmotorsport.com/murray/

Favourite team: McLaren.
favourite driver: Webber (cuz he's an Aussie.)
Schumi Sr will win the championship this year.

And now, the moment everyone but Ensign Paris and iGav have been waiting for...
end completely off topic
 
Eirik, thats some post! From a marketing standpoint I totally agree that Apple should not abandon the low end ($1000 computers). Its the entry-point to mac-life and once a PCer comes aboard they will want to stay and later move up.

So what should the low end product be?

The old iMac has two problems: speed and small monitor.

They can easily fix the speed problem by bumping G3 to around 900 or 1000 mhz.

The monitor problem ( no one WANTS a 15" CRT anymore) can be solved by 17" CRT all-in-one OR:

A Cube or Cylinder or Brick design for well under a grand, and you select your own monitor.

Personally I would love to have a Cube with entry level guts for about $899. The Cube is still the coolest computer ever designed.
 
Minardi

Go Go Go......

Out of all the teams who I'd love to see win a race.... Minardi is at the top...... If they could just get a decent budget!!!......:D

I look forward to McLaren getting their race pace back, it's been a very long time since 3 teams were really, really close....... I'd still say drop DC and get Villeneuve in though!!!:D

Back on topic, I can't see Apple producing such a machine as the iBrick.... it sounds so similar to what the Cube was, and fair enough the Cube was expensive, but everybody whinged about the lack of expandability, lack of power, you name it people complained about it, except the looks...... and ultimately because it was expensive for what it was and the fact the the super tech heads couldn't hot rod it up... it failed..... (I personally took it for what it was, a superb example of design and engineering...... and a great consumer computer!! and thought it was great, it just wasn't suitable for my needs)

In concept a machine such as the iBrick sounds good....... but who would buy it?? if Apple skimp on features, people will still buy a more powerful PC, with a digital camera, printer, scanner, speakers, CD-RW, giant HD, monitor, etc etc for $250 less, they'll still go for the PC...... they believe they'll get more for their money, which they most certainly would do if you were to compare it to a ultra-lo-fi mac..... thing is the concept it self is so good, and I for one would be very interested in such a machine, but only if the specs were good enough!!

This thread started off with someone complaining about the lack of performance of the 600Mhz G3 iMac, for such power hungry things as Word Processing, Browsing, emailing and they're complaining about the lack of performance...... So where would Apple go??? G3 800Mhz.... well thats faster than the current iBooks, yet this iBrick would be cheaper?? If it went to G4 then the new iMac has problems......

I'm pretty certain Apple have considered such a device, and ultimately if they believe it to be viable then we will see such a device......... But personally with the current price range of other machines and the desire by users to have more power (even consumers now that they can make their own movies and have photo albums on their computers) that such a machine would go the same way as the Cube...... and nobody wants to see Apple fail with a product again!!!
 
But why....

Go to 17" CRT when a 15" LCD gives almost identical viewing size???

Nobody wants CRT anymore, even Steve Jobs had said this...... You can get incredibly cheap 15" LCD's at the moment, so shifting up to a 17" CRT is almost pointless!!! Think space saver, think power consumption, think brightness, think quality and you will come up with a LCD!!!

The Cube ain't never coming back, and I for one, don't want it too!! I love Apple because they're are one of the most forward thinking companies in the world!! Going back to the Cube would be wrong!!!

At the moment Apple haven't abandoned the sub $1000 market, the old iMac is way below, the gripe of a 15" CRT is valid, but completely forgetting the fact that people who buy these machines are only going to use it for emailing, browsing, and not ultra-intensive tasks!! And this machine is fine for them!!!

The 2 problems and solutions you pointed out whilst all fantastic in theory, won't happen, the G3 if Apple ever take it to 900 to 1000 Ghz machine will be in the the iBook first (I think the iBook will be shifted to G4 before a 900 or 1ghz G3 is considered, just because what Jobs has said about OS X NEEDING A G4 chip) and most certainly not a machine as old as the original iMac!!!

With regards to a 17 CRT..... as many people have pointed out, it would require the whole thing to be re-designed from the ground up.... this is not a 2 month job!! Remember how long Steve Jobs said Apple were working on the Flower Power and Blue Dalmation printing process..... 6 mnths or something and thats just for a paint job!!!

The logistics of redesigning the case would be minimal 12 months nearer 14 to 16...... design and development!! also a 17" CRT would make the iMac f**king huge!! A true monster in size!! No body would want this (well except for yourself!) When a 15" LCD offers almost identical viewing size!!

Apple is not going to be wasting time trying to re-design a machine that is around 6 years old... it simply will not happen..... Apple have more important things to be working on, like the G5 and other goodies that are lurking around the Infinite Loop campus than working on a machine that is coming very close to the end of it usable life!!!

Lets not mourn the death of the original iMac... celebrate it's life, and thank it for radically changing the worlds perceptions of what a computer should be!!!

A cylinder or brick idea sounds great in theory!!! but if all you want is a cheap computer with a choice of monitors why rather than waste money developing another Cube type product, why not just keep a low range tower say G4 450 or 500 and sell it seriously cheap and then let the user choose their monitor???
 
iGAV you keep referring to a 15" LCD and a 17" CRT as though they were interchangeable.

Don't you know that at retail a 17" CRT is $170 and a 15" LCD is $450 (and up).

And IBM has been able to make G3s at 1ghz for at least two years.

The whole point here is that Apple needs a computer for less than the current $1400+.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.