10.5 is not what it's cracked up to be

[eezing]

First, let me state this, I'm a Windows guy; however, I purchased a MacBook pro a year ago and also have worked with Macs in a development environment for the last three years. This post is based on experience. Just to throw it in there, I own an iPhone as well (not an apple hater).


With the following issues, 10.5 makes Vista look pretty good.

-Airport sucks (inconsistent stability)

-iChat sucks (requires advanced computer know how to make it work 100%)

-Many programs from 10.4 don't work on 10.5

-Updates cause system instability


I've recently downgraded to 10.4 in hopes of relieving the issues stated above. We'll see how things go after a couple of months. Who knows, I may have to run Vista solo on my MacBook Pro.









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[richard.mac]

Airport has always been fine on my MacBook Pro Core Duo which was the first MacBook Pro with an old 802.11g card.

iChat is very easy to use. its just you and the user you chat to has to either have an AIM or MobileMe account.

there are still a few apps that dont work in Leopard but this is the developers fault for not updating it. here is a list of the non Leopard compatible apps http://guides.macrumors.com/List_of_Applications_Not_Compatible_with_Leopard. quite a bit smaller than the list of total number of OS X apps if there ever was one.

ive been using OS X since 10.4.6 and an update has never caused unstability ot crashes for me. except the early versions of Leopard that caused Safari to crash but that is all sorted now.

p.s. whats the point of the big space and dash at the bottom of your post? theres no reason to put it there…

 

[eXan]

With the following issues, 10.5 makes Vista look pretty good.

-Airport sucks (inconsistent stability)

-iChat sucks (requires advanced computer know how to make it work 100%)

-Many programs from 10.4 don't work on 10.5

-Updates cause system instability


I've recently downgraded to 10.4 in hopes of relieving the issues stated above. We'll see how things go after a couple of months. Who knows, I may have to run Vista solo on my MacBook Pro.

Using Macs as primary systems for over 10 years:

1) Never encountered this issue.
2) iChat is incredibly simple to set up and use. (Now I use Adium though because it's compatible with many more IM protocols)
3) Windows analogy: many programs from XP don't work on Vista.
4) Never encountered this issue.

Not sure how you want this thread to develop, but it seems it will turn out to be another M$ vs Apple flame war.

 

[niklot]

First, let me state this, I'm a Windows guy; however, I purchased a MacBook pro a year ago and also have worked with Macs in a development environment for the last three years. This post is based on experience. Just to throw it in there, I own an iPhone as well (not an apple hater).


With the following issues, 10.5 makes Vista look pretty good.

-Airport sucks (inconsistent stability)

-iChat sucks (requires advanced computer know how to make it work 100%)

-Many programs from 10.4 don't work on 10.5

-Updates cause system instability


I've recently downgraded to 10.4 in hopes of relieving the issues stated above. We'll see how things go after a couple of months. Who knows, I may have to run Vista solo on my MacBook Pro.









-

ur sure u talk about apple products? :S never ever had problems with airport... ichat hmm i used to use it but i think skype+ adium is way better! and well im more than happy with 10.5 over all... (and ive been using apple software since OS 9... and the jump from the diffrent OS X versions is by far less problemcausing than from OS 9 to OS X not to talk about xp and vista...)

 

[hierobryan]

Newbie registered in October 2008 and this is his only post. Something's fishy. This guy must be getting paid with all that Vista advertising $$$$.

 

[Cromulent]

With the following issues, 10.5 makes Vista look pretty good.

-Airport sucks (inconsistent stability)

I have no experience with Airport so can't comment.

-iChat sucks (requires advanced computer know how to make it work 100%)

Maybe if you're an idiot. Most people find typing their username and password and then clicking OK pretty easy to do.

-Many programs from 10.4 don't work on 10.5

Like what? All my programs worked fine.

-Updates cause system instability

Not in my experience.

 

[Grasbak]

some people being a bit harsh maybe...??!!

when i first used ichat - no problems.

cant say that now though - since upgrading to leopard/mobileme have had a number of issues with connection. Searched on the internet and had to change my port settings. But still seem to have issues with not being seen as online by some poeple but ok with others or just cannot connect. Seems to be the transition to mobileme that is the culprit.

 

[Str8edgepunker]

First, let me state this, I'm a Windows guy; however, I purchased a MacBook pro a year ago and also have worked with Macs in a development environment for the last three years. This post is based on experience. Just to throw it in there, I own an iPhone as well (not an apple hater).


With the following issues, 10.5 makes Vista look pretty good.

-Airport sucks (inconsistent stability)

-iChat sucks (requires advanced computer know how to make it work 100%)

-Many programs from 10.4 don't work on 10.5

-Updates cause system instability


I've recently downgraded to 10.4 in hopes of relieving the issues stated above. We'll see how things go after a couple of months. Who knows, I may have to run Vista solo on my MacBook Pro.
-

1. Of course, Airport cards can go bad, but on the software side, I've never had an issue with this that couldn't be attributed to either the location or the base station or some other external factor.

2. Use Adium if you truly are unhappy with this.

3. What apps were you using before that don't work anymore? Chances are that there is some sort of replacement or upgrade that lets it work.

4. What update caused instability? What did it do to your system? Honestly, there are sometimes unforseen bugs that crop up that miss developer testing. That's what can happen with any update though.

It sounds like you are attempting some sort of attack against the Mac OS without backing it up with specific instances. So please enlighten us so that we may help you out with issues that you are having. Thanks.

 

[eezing]

Let me make this clear again... I'm not an Apple hater. So please, spare me the Mac vs Windows garbage.

"It sounds like you are attempting some sort of attack against the Mac OS without backing it up with specific instances. So please enlighten us so that we may help you out with issues that you are having. Thanks."

Would be glad to...

Airport:

-Random disconnecting and then reconnecting to a neighbor's router.

-Temporary connection interruptions. ex: streaming movies over LAN or Internet will pause for 1 minute +. I would be forced to restart Airport, although I would also have to restart my browser as well.

-This being the worst... Airport would bypass default router and connect to neighbor's router upon boot-up. Couldn't resolve it and performed OS re-install.

Note: I tried 3 different routers with no success in resolving issues (2 D-Link and 1 Netgear); although, I never tried the Airport router.

iChat:

-Manipulation of port settings, either in OS firewall or router firewall. Sorry bud, not as simple as entering name and password and clicking OK.

-Inconsistent video chat success with another AIM Windows user. Would connect on first try, but not on 2nd or 3rd... Required us to reboot machines. Again, tried different router configurations as well as different locations all together. Other user did not experience same problems with anyone else and therefore I concluded the problem was on my end.

10.4 Program incompatibility:

-As I stated, I work in a Mac\Windows software development environment. I won't give specific names. All I can say is, we publish titles that are OS X native and are not compatible with 10.5 (x86 or PowerPC).

Updates cause system instability:

-Not every issue stated above occurred upon clean install; the Airport issues moreover. That being said, Airport went south from either another piece of software, or virus/spyware (that opens up a whole other can of worms), or system updates.

The only 3rd party software installed on my machine was Office, File Maker, Firefox, Sunbird, Adobe creative suite, Cyberduck ftp and Parallels with BootCamp XP Pro.

I was under the impression that OS X virus/spyware vulnerability was pretty minimal. And, being a experienced computer user, I know what to and not what to download or install.

I speculate, with the amount of Airport updates released through system updates, system updates were the cause of my Airport issues. Please note: I said "amount of Airport updates".

-Over a period of 5 months, my system degraded in terms of performance. Mainly, longer boot times and program start-up times.

-Over a period of 5 months, my system became more unstable. I mainly noticed this with Safari and Firefox becoming non-responsive. This could be a result of the Airport issues.


Please make note that I'm not stating that Vista is any better; however, based on my experience, I am stating that 10.5 is not any better than Vista.

 

[dr. shdw]

Let me make this clear again... I'm not an Apple hater. So please, spare me the Mac vs Windows garbage.

"It sounds like you are attempting some sort of attack against the Mac OS without backing it up with specific instances. So please enlighten us so that we may help you out with issues that you are having. Thanks."

Would be glad to...

Airport:

-Random disconnecting and then reconnecting to a neighbor's router.

-Temporary connection interruptions. ex: streaming movies over LAN or Internet will pause for 1 minute +. I would be forced to restart Airport, although I would also have to restart my browser as well.

-This being the worst... Airport would bypass default router and connect to neighbor's router upon boot-up. Couldn't resolve it and performed OS re-install.

Note: I tried 3 different routers with no success in resolving issues (2 D-Link and 1 Netgear); although, I never tried the Airport router.

iChat:

-Manipulation of port settings, either in OS firewall or router firewall. Sorry bud, not as simple as entering name and password and clicking OK.

-Inconsistent video chat success with another AIM Windows user. Would connect on first try, but not on 2nd or 3rd... Required us to reboot machines. Again, tried different router configurations as well as different locations all together. Other user did not experience same problems with anyone else and therefore I concluded the problem was on my end.

10.4 Program incompatibility:

-As I stated, I work in a Mac\Windows software development environment. I won't give specific names. All I can say is, we publish titles that are OS X native and are not compatible with 10.5 (x86 or PowerPC).

Updates cause system instability:

-Not every issue stated above occurred upon clean install; the Airport issues moreover. That being said, Airport went south from either another piece of software, or virus/spyware (that opens up a whole other can of worms), or system updates.

The only 3rd party software installed on my machine was Office, File Maker, Firefox, Sunbird, Adobe creative suite, Cyberduck ftp and Parallels with BootCamp XP Pro.

I was under the impression that OS X virus/spyware vulnerability was pretty minimal. And, being a experienced computer user, I know what to and not what to download or install.

I speculate, with the amount of Airport updates released through system updates, system updates were the cause of my Airport issues. Please note: I said "amount of Airport updates".

-Over a period of 5 months, my system degraded in terms of performance. Mainly, longer boot times and program start-up times.

-Over a period of 5 months, my system became more unstable. I mainly noticed this with Safari and Firefox becoming non-responsive. This could be a result of the Airport issues.


Please make note that I'm not stating that Vista is any better; however, based on my experience, I am stating that 10.5 is not any better than Vista.

What kind of hardware are you running it on? Airport disconnecting, etc, is most likely the router, a bad/low signal, or maybe the airport, but you give no specs.

Setting port settings is pretty straight forward...like in any other IM program.

It's your company's fault for not building 10.5 compatible universal apps...

It's possible updates are interfering, but it might be a router side incompatibility.

No specs doesn't really help.

 

[Sun Baked]

Let me guess, a Netgear wireless router ... which will cause you all sorts of angst.

Some people go around this by using a open version of software on the router.

 

[No1451]

Gee wiz you opened ports? Man, cause you NEVER have to do that for Windows, like, at all right? Cause at home my gaming machine never needs to have my games in the firewall exception list, I don't need to do any port forwarding in my router and I certainly don't need to open some ports on my firewall.
/deactivate sarcasm

You sound like an idiot, I've used Windows nearly my whole life and just started using OS X yesterday at 11am when my new MacBook arrived, and it honestly is a mostly lateral move from Vista. A lot of features and issues I have encountered in Vista are present in this OS as well, and its easy to use.

As for the sketchy network support, there are lemons, always. My old Linksys router was gimpy as can be, so was my D-Link wireless adapter for my PC, got it replaced and all was well, no more weird connections and dropped signals.

If software being incompatible is such a big issue, there are usually 10 alternatives out there, so use your skills and google it up.

 

[ScoobyMcDoo]

-Airport sucks (inconsistent stability)
-

Maybe so, but it sucks less any of the windows. I have had less troubles getting my iMac/Airport to connect to my ancient linksys B router than XP or Vista. Vista was a real bitch and would only work if I turned off all security. The linux box works probably the most reliably of the bunch.

-iChat sucks (requires advanced computer know how to make it work 100%)
-

I use skype - more OS agnostic so I can use it to talk to my family members that are running windows. I think I fired up iChat once, but when I found that it could not talk to anything other than another mac, I found it useless.

-Many programs from 10.4 don't work on 10.5
-

Nothing new to add here, but I haven't had that problem.

-Updates cause system instability
-

I'm sure that did happen, but what OS has not botched an update? It happens - that's why, no matter which OS I'm using, I wait for a while after updates are available and get some feedback before blindly updating.


I've used Windows and Linux and other Unix flavors for years. Did a little mac work way back in the OS7 days. I bought an iMac right after they starting using Intel processors. OS X and Linux feel the most comfortable to me. I'll bring my laptop home from work, which runs XP but I'll end up setting that thing down and just doing my work from my mac because it just works better and feels better.

 

[Sorkvild]

I was under the impression that OS X virus/spyware vulnerability was pretty minimal.

You are wrong. It is nonexistent.

 

[rychencop]

i'll have to disagree with you on all counts. as a long time dos/windows user and a mac switcher a year ago, i have not looked back. os x is a superior os on all counts. plus if you can't figure out iChat, how can you justify your "expertise" in the field of computers?
come on dude!

 

[Hrududu]

Sounds like your Airport problems could easily be solved by adjusting some settings. By default, Airport will typically join the network with the strongest signal, which could explain why you're getting on your neighbors on occasion. Simply set it to join a specific network. As far as bad connections, make sure you're using the correct WEP settings on the Macintosh. The 10.4-10.5 compatiblity is something I've never even heard of. I've got a slew of applications from all different OSX eras that work fine under 10.5 (some are old Apps I've had since running 10.2 on a G3) so that sounds like a software development issue.

 

[aristobrat]

By default, Airport will typically join the network with the strongest signal, which could explain why you're getting on your neighbors on occasion.

I though the AirPort joins networks based on their order in System Preferences?

The only way I can see that it picks his neighbors automatically is that he manually selected the neighbors at one point (which automatically adds it to the 'Preferred Networks' list) and either had the order set so that the neighbors network came first, or his Mac wasn't able to join his network and so it went down the 'Preferred Network' list, stopping when it joined his neighbors successfully.

 

[kolax]

You're using your neighbours wireless - something you probably aren't able to physically asses and you're blaming your AirPort connection rather than other factors such as interference since you are connecting to a router that sounds like it could be some distance away (when you take into consideration the walls it has to travel through).

Meh...plenty of people just like to have a big moan. Go back to Windows and we'll see you posting how once you go Mac you never go back in a few weeks.

 

[yellow]

I hope you're not basing all of these observations on the performance of one Mac, and extrapolating these problems to all Macs all instances of 10.5.x?

As a IT professional who makes a living supporting Macs in an enormous environment, I think I have a fairly decent grasp on the technology at hand. While I cannot speak on iChat, I support Lotus Notes, which is a much bigger disaster than anything else I have ever encountered. Ever.

What I will agree with you on is that 10.5 is not all it's cracked up to be.. IMO, it was released far too early and Apple used PR/Marketing Spin to "work out the bugs" in it. And frankly, 10.6, should have been 10.5. But the economics of their OS releases, they risked investor and user loss of confidence if they had taken any longer to release Leopard. After all, it's bad to make a habit of bad-mouthing your competition and then following the same path.

<cough cough>PPC vs Intel<cough cough>

 

[gustavopi]

I'm macosx user since Panther. But I'm a developer since zx spectrum, so I know a few of OS. The problem with migration of a Windows user to Mac is that at Windows things are easy, and at macosx things seams to be easy. Things are better, but not easy. To make a macosx talk 100% over a network is a HARD HARD and HARD job. Finding and configuring devices with a single clic? ********! Course, oance time o get it, you will be happy for ever and ever. But a Windows user is accustomed to slap the CPU, hack the system and things "works". He may using half capability of his machine, but it's working.

The Apple problem is making a picture of a product like heaven - is not. It's just better than ordinary PCs. And that's enough for me.

 

[illegalprelude]

First, let me state this, I'm a Windows guy; however, I purchased a MacBook pro a year ago and also have worked with Macs in a development environment for the last three years. This post is based on experience. Just to throw it in there, I own an iPhone as well (not an apple hater).


With the following issues, 10.5 makes Vista look pretty good.

-Airport sucks (inconsistent stability)

I would first check this in other inviroments, if the same thing occurs, you know its your Airport card. I would have it checked out, you might have a bad unit If not, then you know its your router.

-iChat sucks (requires advanced computer know how to make it work 100%)

Can you be a little more specific with that because iChat like AIM or MSN Messenger just works....I would try Adium though. Fantastic program.

-Many programs from 10.4 don't work on 10.5

I remember this was an issue during launch but havent really heard of this problem sense...It might just be the field your in and that those developers are not updating their apps because as you can see, most apps are all running fine on Leopard

-Updates cause system instability

....again this in an odd one. I cant say ive ever had an update cause instability. I would again say, have your unit checked out...

 

[GimmeSlack12]

1. I've heard of the MBP's having Airport problems. Not my iMac, Mini, iBook, G4, G3 or so on and on.
2. If you can't figure out iChat then you kind of fail at Macs.
3. Instability and slow boot ups? I guess.

Overall I find 10.5 to be fantastic and after using 10.4 again on an old computer I realize that Spaces, Quickview, and Time Machine are solid enhancements. Stacks I can still live without, those are a waste of time.

 

[Gray-Wolf]

Can't speak for the earlier version, but Leopard has given me no problems what so ever. The screensaver issue was the result of modifying iTunes. Once reset, all fine. I am very impressed with both OSX 10.5.5 and with Apple.

 

[eezing]

Reply from original poster

I love it, you guys and your precious Macs. No reason for bashing here. I'm simply stating your beloved OS X ain't all that and a bag of chips.

For the record, most of the problems I encountered were fixable; all but the default Wifi Issue. I had to re-install 10.5 for that. Look, I'm not an idiot, I know how to troubleshoot, I do it everyday. So that being said, I've most likely tried the suggestion you have posted or will post about how to fix my issues. I thank you anyway.

As far as software compatibility, if you don't work in a software environment, please don't comment on this. I see more software in one week then you do in a year.

My problem is, the whole "It just works" attitude is BS. Getting your Mac up and running at 100% usability is not easy. After spending eight hours working with computers, the last thing I want to do when I get home is troubleshoot my own.

 

[JNB]

All the chest-beating and testicle swelling is just a little silly, don'cha think?

As far as the OP's software creds, they should realize that we have folks from many developers that state who they're with publicly, including MS's MacBU, so you shouldn't feel compelled to hide it. As far as version incompatibility, that's entirely on the developer's side. If you or your developers are ADC members (and if you're Mac developers, you damn well better be), then you either update to ensure compatibility or publicly state the highest level you'll certify performance through. You don't dump on the OS developer, it's not their fault, nor their problem if you can't keep up.

Oh, and welcome to the forums. Nice introduction.