10-bit mirrorless camera?

Discussion in 'Digital Video' started by toke lahti, Dec 12, 2017.

  1. toke lahti macrumors 68020

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    #1
    Hi,

    is GH5 still the only current dslr/mirrorless that has 10-bit colors?

    Any rumours about when sony a7s3 will come out and will it have 10-bits?

    Or if Blackmagic is updating their pocket camera?
    Is there any servo zoom lens in MFT format?
     
  2. joema2 macrumors 68000

    joema2

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    #2
    I don't know of another DSLR/mirrorless camera that does internal 10-bit recording. However 4k 8-bit 4:2:0 supposedly transcodes to 10-bit 4:4:4 at 1080p. Dave Dugdale tested this here: http://www.learningvideo.com/10-bit-vs-8-bit/

    Nobody yet knows whether the A7S3 will have 10-bit internal recording. It is possible, but 10-bit codecs have their own post processing issues. E.g, on Macs the GH5 10-bit codec cannot be viewed at the Finder level, although VLC will play it. Editing that codec is extremely slow unless it is transcoded to proxy or another edit-friendly codec.

    Re power zoom lenses for MFT, there's the Panasonic 14-140, but it's variable aperture: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...c_h_fs14140ak_14_140mm_f3_5_5_6_ois_lens.html

    I don't think the MFT world has a cinema-oriented power zoom lens like the Sony 18-110 or 28-135 f/4 or Canon's 18-80. Since the GH5 is so video-oriented such a lens is a good idea; I don't know why nobody makes one.:

    https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1280873-REG/sony_selp18110g_e_mount_lens.html

    https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1082051-REG/sony_selp28135g_e_pz_28_135mm_f_4.html

    https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...1714c002_cn_e_18_80mm_t4_4_compact_servo.html
     
  3. orph macrumors 68000

    orph

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  4. toke lahti thread starter macrumors 68020

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    #4
    I don't get the idea of this test.
    In the beginning 4k codec removes the compression artifacts and that has nothing to do with bit depth.
    Then this guy just underexposes and see what happens. Idea of having 10-bits is not just to correct mistakes.
    The idea of 10-bits is to have more tones in dynamic range.
    Testing that is very simple; you just put something too dark and too bright in the picture and adjust the picture so that you can see both details in dark area and in highlights.
    If there is no too bright or too dark areas in the picture, there's no big advantage with 10-bits, only some in skin tones etc.
    You could just shoot one light bulb. Or put a dark face in front of sky with clouds. Then try to keep details in the face and in the clouds.
    --- Post Merged, Dec 17, 2017 ---
    Nope.
     
  5. orph macrumors 68000

    orph

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    #5
    10 bit color is not dynamic range it's the number of color's recorded

    i think your mixing up dynamic range ie from the darkest point to the brightest point
    with 10-bit color which is "10-bits per sample allows for 1024 shades per primary color (a total of 1.07 billion colors)"
    from wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_depth

    you may be getting mixed up with HDR video which is both
    im not as up on my video color spaces so i may be worng but i think the new "HDR' in adverts is rec. 2020 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._2020


    i think some external recorders allow 10 bit color capture but thats not in camera or look at black magic cameras maybe

    or as more a long shot some of the canon cameras with magic lantern will do RAW video which is 12/14-bit
     
  6. toke lahti thread starter macrumors 68020

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    #6
    I don't mix anything here that shouldn't be mixed.

    Traditionally, in video shooting, you use additional bits same way you use film negative: you can "push" the material, so you get more details in highlights and/or shadows.

    In this way you use standard (eg.rec709) gamma, where the normal tonal curve will be delivered in 8-bit format, but you have eg. 2 more bits in highlight, so you can grade those to look better in the post. Rec709 deliveres 7 stops of dynamic range and with 10 bits color info, you can stretch that to 9 stops, without messing the normal tones captured between normal black and normal white.

    Even if you don't put HDR in the mix, if you want to do artistic color grading and don't mind about rec709 curve, you are dropping away eg. 33% of the tones captured. Then it's very handy to have additional 2 bits, so when you deliver in 8 bits, your color gradients will be smooth.
    And when you do put HDR in the mix, 10 bits is minimum quality you need. Even the displays have it. You can't represent 10-15 stops with 8 bits without banding.
     
  7. orph, Dec 28, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017

    orph macrumors 68000

    orph

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    #7
    ill have to find a reference one of us is confused on what bit depth is and what dynamic range is, to my understanding there independent and to you there the same thing.


    back on topic an atomos unit can give you 10 bit on a few cameras like the gh4 as a second option. for 10-bit 4.2.2

    ps not shore film is a good example, ill try to look in to it when i have time.
     
  8. orph macrumors 68000

    orph

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    #8
    http://www.peachpit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1709190&seqNum=2

    so
    "Dynamic Range. Some vendors try to equate bit depth with dynamic range. This is largely a marketing ploy, because although there is a relationship between bit depth and dynamic range, it’s an indirect one."

    this is bit depth
    "if an 8-bit channel consists of 256 levels, a 10-bit channel consists of 1,024 levels, and a 12-bit channel consists of 4,096 levels"

    so more bit depth is not more dynamic range it's just more points along the RGB Chanel that are recorded, dynamic range is limited by sensor and all the back end stuff, bit depth 8v10 is just instead of 256 levels in each RGB channel you get 1024 now the range that your levels actually cover can be a tiny or a massive dynamic range.

    and to add more fun the color space will dictate the colors that can be recorded

    this all changes a tad if you shoot raw video/stills but not by much.

    working with compressed video is like working working with compressed stills jpegs/h264 are a pain and you cant push them far (good) tiff/prores have more room to play around but not massive and RAW video/still just let you have fun :D

    now to be fair if your working in h264 10bit may let you play around more with how far you can grade as the shadows are not as lossey as in 8bit & you may not get broken gradients so soon when grading but it's no comparison to prores or RAW

    also explained here nice and clear https://photography.tutsplus.com/articles/bit-depth-explained-in-depth--photo-8514
    look at the close up with sky in
    "A close-up look at the sky shows the posterisation effect. Working with a 16 bit TIFF file would have eliminated, or at least minimised, the banding effect."

    ps
    http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?358287-HDR-holy-confusion-What-did-I-miss
    see AndreeOnline's post
     
  9. toke lahti thread starter macrumors 68020

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    #9
    Old thread, but,
    I know what DR and bit depth are.
    They don't have to match, but they can.
    Compression artifacts are totally different ballgame, but when I was doing some quality grading, nobody who wanted quality, would use mpeg/h264 as a source.
    In broadcasting, if you need high quality picture, but don't have time or manoy to grade shots like "from the raw", it is very handy to have rec709 where those 8 bits just cover the rec709 gamma curve and the extra bits give some extra when needed in the toe/knee/shoulder.
    Then you can easily adjust the blacks or near superwhites just adjusting the knee or toe slope, without touching any other colors in the whole tonal range.
    This of course means, that you have to be careful with exposure and white balance, so there won't be any additional corrections to be made in the post.

    Found one link, which is a bit about this, there might be better ones:
    https://wolfcrow.com/blog/understan...-or-preset-adjustments-and-settings-part-two/
     

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8 December 12, 2017