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Well, the whole reason I'm going to C2D on my CD iMac is so that I can run OSes beyond SL and open the doorway to 64-bit Apps, as well as a slight improvement in clock speed from 1.83GHz to 2.0GHz. Of course this all came to be in the long run of the machines and this wasn't really an issue back 10 years ago.
Two of the three things you mentioned have nothing to do with the Core Duo processor:

  • The inability to run anything beyond SL was not a limitation of the Core Duo processor. For example there are several MacBooks with Core 2 Duo processors which are not supported beyond SL.
  • Clock speed improvement. The first revision of MacBooks, which had Core Duo processors, were available with 2.0GHz processors.
Aside from the 64-bit addressing support in the Core 2 Duo the only other difference I'm aware of was an increase of the L2 cache from 2MB to 4MB.
 
Two of the three things you mentioned have nothing to do with the Core Duo processor:

  • The inability to run anything beyond SL was not a limitation of the Core Duo processor. For example there are several MacBooks with Core 2 Duo processors which are not supported beyond SL.
  • Clock speed improvement. The first revision of MacBooks, which had Core Duo processors, were available with 2.0GHz processors.
Aside from the 64-bit addressing support in the Core 2 Duo the only other difference I'm aware of was an increase of the L2 cache from 2MB to 4MB.

Please tell me how I run Lion or Mountain Lion on my Core Duo Mac? Thats right, you can't because it has a support for only 32bit. Core 2 Duo has support for 64bit, thus it can go to Lion and Mountain Lion depending on the GPU. All Core 2 Duo Macbooks should be able to reach ML, correct me if I am wrong.

Apple doesn't "support" it but we can still do it.
 
To further expand, at the time the Xeons in the new Mac Pros were true powerhouse machines. Especially with the ability to swap in two Xeon e5450 3GHz quad cores to create an 8 core machine and with a few mods the 1,1/2,1 models will run El Capitan (granted with a different GPU) and had room to expand. These were the true G5 killers, not the CoreDuo/C2D.

But... for a laptop/iMac Core 2 Duo is where it's at. Every MB I own has a C2D and I have a Core Duo iMac, the iMac sits in a corner because it does me no good running SL.
 
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Please tell me how I run Lion or Mountain Lion on my Core Duo Mac? Thats right, you can't because it has a support for only 32bit. Core 2 Duo has support for 64bit, thus it can go to Lion and Mountain Lion depending on the GPU. All Core 2 Duo Macbooks should be able to reach ML, correct me if I am wrong.

Apple doesn't "support" it but we can still do it.
The inability for Mountain Lion to run on a Core Duo has nothing to do with the processor itself but rather Apple's decision not to support Mountain Lion on it. Apple could have made a 32-bit version of Mountain Lion if they wanted to. This is reinforced by the fact Apple does not support Mountain Lion on some Core 2 Duo equipped MacBooks. The fact you can do it doesn't change this fact.

You need to separate what Apple has chosen to do and what Apple could have done.
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To further expand, at the time the Xeons in the new Mac Pros were true powerhouse machines. Especially with the ability to swap in two Xeon e5450 3GHz quad cores to create an 8 core machine and with a few mods the 1,1/2,1 models will run El Capitan (granted with a different GPU) and had room to expand. These were the true G5 killers, not the CoreDuo/C2D.

But... for a laptop/iMac Core 2 Duo is where it's at. Every MB I own has a C2D and I have a Core Duo iMac, the iMac sits in a corner because it does me no good running SL.
Can you expand upon this? Core based systems were quite fast and easily bested comparably configured G5 systems. However comparing a 3.0GHz eight core system against a 1.83GHz dual core system is being a little disingenuous. Especially if the application is highly threaded.
 
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Please tell me how I run Lion or Mountain Lion on my Core Duo Mac? Thats right, you can't because it has a support for only 32bit. Core 2 Duo has support for 64bit, thus it can go to Lion and Mountain Lion depending on the GPU. All Core 2 Duo Macbooks should be able to reach ML, correct me if I am wrong.

Apple doesn't "support" it but we can still do it.

Seriously, stop taking it personally! ;)

A couple of points :
1) You are using current knowledge and the power of hindsight to judge 2006 era hardware, decrying it as bad when launched. This is a long way from the truth. Mountain Lion was launched over SIX years after the Core Duo Macs.
2) Apple chose not to support the 2006 hardware, also including the initial Core 2 Duo machines because they didn't want to support the ATI X1600 graphics which are EFI32. So it's the dropping of support is partially x86 and partially legacy graphics that would need porting to EFI64.
3) They also dropped support for other EFI32 macs including the MacPro1,1. ;)
 
Can you expand upon this? Core based systems were quite fast and easily bested comparably configured G5 systems. However comparing a 3.0GHz eight core system against a 1.83GHz dual core system is being a little disingenuous. Especially if the application is highly threaded.

Well, with a 1,1 or a 2,1 you can still use it as a day-to-day Mac while enjoying quite a bit of processing power (not to mention the expanded upgradeability such as newer graphics cards and up to 32GB ram including the option to create a Fusion drive with a SSD and a normal hard drive). Take any Mac from 2006 outside of the 1,1 and let me know if/how well it runs El Capitan. Well the Xserve can too but not many people intend to use those as main Macs.

Core 2 Duos are great don't get me wrong, but if you want the oldest possible machine that can still run the latest stuff, the Mac Pro is the way to go. C2D was a huge upgrade for the laptops and desktops that added a phenomenal amount of performance at the time. I would still be rocking my 2,1 if I didn't have to sell it to put some money towards my truck, but it's okay I have an i7 build that runs El Capitan great :)

That's my expansion ;)
 
Well, with a 1,1 or a 2,1 you can still use it as a day-to-day Mac while enjoying quite a bit of processing power (not to mention the expanded upgradeability such as newer graphics cards and up to 32GB ram including the option to create a Fusion drive with a SSD and a normal hard drive). Take any Mac from 2006 outside of the 1,1 and let me know if/how well it runs El Capitan. Well the Xserve can too but not many people intend to use those as main Macs.

Core 2 Duos are great don't get me wrong, but if you want the oldest possible machine that can still run the latest stuff, the Mac Pro is the way to go. C2D was a huge upgrade for the laptops and desktops that added a phenomenal amount of performance at the time. I would still be rocking my 2,1 if I didn't have to sell it to put some money towards my truck, but it's okay I have an i7 build that runs El Capitan great :)

That's my expansion ;)
I'm not really sure what your point is. You're comparing a top of the line system to lower end models. What does this have to do with Core Duo versus Core 2 Duo and the former not being significantly better than the PPC G5? In addition are you aware the processors used in the Mac Pro 1,1 and 2,1 are based on the Core architecture? That is they are Core based processors.
 
I'm not really sure what your point is. You're comparing a top of the line system to lower end models. What does this have to do with Core Duo versus Core 2 Duo and the former not being significantly better than the PPC G5? In addition are you aware the processors used in the Mac Pro 1,1 and 2,1 are based on the Core architecture? That is they are Core based processors.

My point is that the Mac Pro is the true killer of the G5 as I stated in my first post. And indeed I am, and it regards being better than a G5. And it is better than a G5. And is the successor to the G5. So what if they are a Core, or sheit, even a Celeron or an Itanium. It's all intel at the end of the day man.
 
My point is that the Mac Pro is the true killer of the G5 as I stated in my first post. And indeed I am, and it regards being better than a G5. And it is better than a G5. And is the successor to the G5. So what if they are a Core, or sheit, even a Celeron or an Itanium. It's all intel at the end of the day man.
It was the true G5 killer in that it was the final product line (i.e. professional) to switch to Intel. Other than that I still don't see your point.
 
I remember having lusted over an iBook G4 for quite some time at this point, still using my old PC; and I was shocked, as at that time I didn't follow any kind of Apple rumors. I remember being disappointed, as it seemed as though Macs weren't as special as they had been. Still, despite this, I was very excited at the prospect of them being more powerful, and I was able to sell my parents on buying me one for Christmas on the merit of being able to run Windows if I didn't find OS X to my liking. That December, I got my first "modern" Mac: A 1.83 GHz Core Duo Mac mini. (Oh geez, I just realized the external hard drive I got at the same time is turning 10 this year, and still holds a lot of my important files with no backups. :eek:)

This much further down the line, I still agree with the notion of Macs being not quite as special as they were with PowerPC chips. Not that the Intel processors are bad, just that Macs have never really felt the same since. :(
 
Alright, time to take back command of my thread...

Pl595, not sure what your problem is that you can't drop the argument. What I and many others are trying to say is that in the long run, the core duo really sucked. Apple supported 2 major updates on it, Leopard and Snow Leopard, before dropping it because it was too weak to run Lion and beyond. Meanwhile, after barely a year of Core Duo macs, Apple and Intel switched to Core 2 Duo, which is head over heals better than the Core Duo. For some Core 2 Duo machines that aren't plagued for the crappy GMAs, they have had every update from Leopard-El Capitan, which if my math is right adds up to 6 major updates. That's quite a large difference compared to 2 for the Core Duo. Every Core 2 Duo Mac Apple made technically could run El Capitan if it wasn't for stupid graphics. Hell, when I put the Core 2 Duo into my Core Duo iMac over the weekend, it can run Mountain Lion with very little hacking. Luckily, I have RAEDON X1600 graphics in mine compared to GMA 950, so for my machine only, graphics wasn't an inhibitor as to why it couldn't run past SL, but the weak CPU was. The reason why officially it couldn't run past Lion is because no other desktop machines had that GPU. Every other C2D machine has GMA until later on and in the MacBook Pros.
 
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This much further down the line, I still agree with the notion of Macs being not quite as special as they were with PowerPC chips. Not that the Intel processors are bad, just that Macs have never really felt the same since. :(

I agree. Since the transition from PowerPC, the iMacs have only really had 2 major design revision (white plastic/iMac G5 design, metal with black glass cover, ultra thin models), the MacBooks have had 3 (original, Unibody, Retna), the MBPs have had 3 (PBG4 Alu design, Unibody, Retna), the Mac Pro has had 1 (PMG5 style, trash can style), and the Mac mini has had 3 (MMG4 design, small aluminum with disk drive, aluminum with no disk drive). During the Gx PowerPC era, Apple changed the design of the iMac 3 times (original CRT, flower pot/lamp, iMac G5), once for each Gx improvement, 5 PowerBook design changes (Kanga, wallstreet, Pismo/Lombard, Ti, Alu), 3 iBook (clamshell, snow, G4), 8 PowerMac changes (G3 desktop, G3 mini tower, G3 AIO, G3 B&W, G4 Sawtooth, G4 Quicksilver, G4 MDD, PowerMac G5), and just the initial design for the Mac Mini. That's a much larger number than today's standards. I think it's time for another Apple design revolution, across the board.
 
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I agree. Since the transition from PowerPC, the iMacs have only really had 2 major design revision (white plastic/iMac G5 design, metal with black glass cover, ultra thin models), the MacBooks have had 3 (original, Unibody, Retna), the MBPs have had 3 (PBG4 Alu design, Unibody, Retna), the Mac Pro has had 1 (PMG5 style, trash can style), and the Mac mini has had 3 (MMG4 design, small aluminum with disk drive, aluminum with no disk drive). During the Gx PowerPC era, Apple changed the design of the iMac 3 times (original CRT, flower pot/lamp, iMac G5), once for each Gx improvement, 5 PowerBook design changes (Kanga, wallstreet, Pismo/Lombard, Ti, Alu), 3 iBook (clamshell, snow, G4), 8 PowerMac changes (G3 desktop, G3 mini tower, G3 AIO, G3 B&W, G4 Sawtooth, G4 Quicksilver, G4 MDD, PowerMac G5), and just the initial design for the Mac Mini. That's a much larger number than today's standards. I think it's time for another Apple design revolution, across the board.
I completely agree. Seeing all the "don't buy" signs in the Buyer's Guide is just depressing, especially when they continue to sell products like the 2011 Thunderbolt display (the $999 price should be a sin!).
 
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I completely agree. Seeing all the "don't buy" signs in the Buyer's Guide is just depressing, especially when they continue to sell products like the 2011 Thunderbolt display (the $999 price should be a sin!).

I actually really like the TB display and have always thought it was an intriguing product.

Back in the spring of 2012 when I got my first MBP, it struck as something of an ideal "docking station" product and I really wanted one. I think it was a good value at the time considering the quality of the display and the "newness" of TB.

4 years later, I agree that Apple should have at least had the courtesy to drop the price on them. Now, for $800 more, you get the same size panel with nearly 4x the number of pixels on it and a well equipped computer stuck behind it! Apple has kept the 2012 MBP alive well beyond what many people consider it's useable date, but at least has had the courtesy to drop the price in that time.
 
It was the G5 killer as the Mac Pro had substantial performance over a G5 powered iMac or Power Mac.
The Core Duo based iMac was a substantial performance improvement over the G5 iMac. The fact the Mac Pro may have raised the bar even higher does not negate this.
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Alright, time to take back command of my thread...

Pl595, not sure what your problem is that you can't drop the argument. What I and many others are trying to say is that in the long run, the core duo really sucked.

My "problem" is you're wrong. The Core Duo and Core 2 Duo processors were almost identical in performance. The Core 2 Duo (at least the 2.0GHz version, this doesn't apply to the 1.83Ghz version) had a slight, probably undetectable (outside of benchmarks) edge in performance due to twice the L2 cache (4MB instead of 2MB). The 64-bit instruction set was largely irrelevant when it came to performance. These are the only two difference (that I'm aware of) between these processors thus saying one really sucked whereas the other did not is foolish.

Apple supported 2 major updates on it, Leopard and Snow Leopard, before dropping it because it was too weak to run Lion and beyond. Meanwhile, after barely a year of Core Duo macs, Apple and Intel switched to Core 2 Duo, which is head over heals better than the Core Duo.
How? Aside from twice the L2 cache and 64-bit instruction set they're the same. The extra L2 cache gives a negligible performance increase to the Core 2 Duo but nothing close to "head over heals" better. If I'm in error please feel free to show why.

For some Core 2 Duo machines that aren't plagued for the crappy GMAs, they have had every update from Leopard-El Capitan, which if my math is right adds up to 6 major updates. That's quite a large difference compared to 2 for the Core Duo. Every Core 2 Duo Mac Apple made technically could run El Capitan if it wasn't for stupid graphics. Hell, when I put the Core 2 Duo into my Core Duo iMac over the weekend, it can run Mountain Lion with very little hacking. Luckily, I have RAEDON X1600 graphics in mine compared to GMA 950, so for my machine only, graphics wasn't an inhibitor as to why it couldn't run past SL, but the weak CPU was. The reason why officially it couldn't run past Lion is because no other desktop machines had that GPU. Every other C2D machine has GMA until later on and in the MacBook Pros.
Nothing was preventing Apple from releasing later versions of OS X which ran on Core Duo system. The only reason they don't is because Apple decided not to support them (along with other Core 2 Duo based systems) for whatever reasons. I suspect I could take the 32-bit version of Windows 10 and run it just fine on a Core Duo based Mac (if I cannot it wouldn't be because of the processor).

So stop with the nonsense the Core Duo was a lousy processor. Unless you required 64-bit instruction set it was, for all intents and purposes, the same as the Core 2 Duo which replaced it.
 
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I will add that superior benchmarks alone aren't a guarantee of a better user experience - I replaced a G5 2.0 DP Powermac with a 1.83 C2D iMac for design work. Even though the iMac clocked 50% higher in Geekbench I quickly went back to the G5 - I strongly suspect it was the GMA 950 graphics that let it down.
 
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I will add that superior benchmarks alone aren't a guarantee of a better user experience - I replaced a G5 2.0 DP Powermac with a 1.83 C2D iMac for design work. Even though the iMac clocked 50% higher in Geekbench I quickly went back to the G5 - I strongly suspect it was the GMA 950 graphics that let it down.
This comparison is between integrated graphics (i.e. the GMA 950) and discrete graphics used in the Power Mac. It is not a comparison of the PPC G5 versus the Core Duo versus the Core 2 Duo.
 
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This comparison is between integrated graphics (i.e. the GMA 950) and discrete graphics used in the Power Mac. It is not a comparison of the PPC G5 versus the Core Duo versus the Core 2 Duo.

It's a comparison of (my) user experience - the superior C2D CPU was hobbled by inferior GPU. To an end user who is neither familiar, nor wants to be, with the inner workings would walk away thinking the G5 is better.
 
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This comparison is between integrated graphics (i.e. the GMA 950) and discrete graphics used in the Power Mac. It is not a comparison of the PPC G5 versus the Core Duo versus the Core 2 Duo.

Correct.

Also Dronecatcher, the intended upgrade path from a PowerMac in 2006 was not to take a user to an iMac. You would have been better served with a Mac Pro at that point. Workstation to workstation, not workstation to all in one everyday machine. Comparing the two just doesn't make sense.
 
Correct.

Also Dronecatcher, the intended upgrade path from a PowerMac in 2006 was not to take a user to an iMac. You would have been better served with a Mac Pro at that point. Workstation to workstation, not workstation to all in one everyday machine. Comparing the two just doesn't make sense.

You're missing my point entirely. I "upgraded" in 2010 to the iMac - it was going for a decent price on ebay - I checked it's benchmark against my G5 and it was 50% higher, reason enough to expect better performance. That's my point - you can't always use benchmarks to measure the overall suitability and performance.
 
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It's a comparison of (my) user experience - the superior C2D CPU was hobbled by inferior GPU. To an end user who is neither familiar, nor wants to be, with the inner workings would walk away thinking the G5 is better.
Your user experience is irrelevant to a discussion as to whether the Core Duo / Core 2 Duo was a faster processor than the PPC G5 processor. If the discussion were about Intel based systems versus PPC G5 based systems then your user experience would be relevant.

With that said your point is quite valid. That's a problem when using generic statements as the accuracy of the statement could, as your example shows, depend on a number of factors. One of which is knowing your application requirements. There was a reason Steve Jobs used the benchmarks he did when selling the new Intel based iMac compared to the PPC G5 predecessor.
 
My comment was aimed squarely at users who found the early intel systems lacking by comparison (based on personal experience) - not a CD/C2D vs G5 argument, as I don't think there is one, the intel chips blow the PPC chips out of the water.
 
My comment was aimed squarely at users who found the early intel systems lacking by comparison (based on personal experience) - not a CD/C2D vs G5 argument, as I don't think there is one, the intel chips blow the PPC chips out of the water.
There is such a discussion and I had assumed your statement was in response to that discussion. Going back and re-reading your post I see that was an incorrect assumption. You have my apologies.
 
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