Anyone else completely stumped?

[James Philp]

I was seriously thinking of getting a new PowerMac Dual G5 after I finish college, that was until a few hours ago!
I don't know what to do now! Should I wait a year? Is there much point buying a Mac based on a chip that will be phased out in 2 years!?!
My problem is, if I'm going to spend $3000+ on a system, I'm going to want it to last me at least 5 years (running up-to-date software), like my PowerBook G3 has, and I just don't see this happening now on any current Mac. 2-3 years sure, but can anyone see any of the current Macs staying up-to-date (as in running the most recent OS, and run well) up to the year 2010?
I had my heart set on treating myself to a PM G5 in the near future, and now I just don't know.
Jobs did say:
"We have some great PowerPC products still coming" didn't he though!

 

[ITASOR]

As for being completely stumped...Chrispy and I had a nice talk on AIM about what to do now and stuff. I'm still stumped, as I think it's better to wait and see what happens and what announcements are made in the next few months. If I personally had the money, I would buy it now, because I change computers every 2-3 years anyway right when this one would be obsolete.

 

[CanadaRAM]

Should I wait a year? Is there much point buying a Mac based on a chip that will be phased out in 2 years!?

]

Can't you see the fallacy in this argument?

Here's a real life example: I am writing this on a phased out Web browser on a machine that runs a phased out G4 chip. My business runs on a machine with a phased out G3 chip on a pre-OSX operating system. I have plugged both of them into a state of the art Dell widescreen monitor. My happy.

My accounting is on a phased out MS OS running on a phased out VIA EPIX computer. I print on a 10 year old phased out LaserJet 4M+ printer, running on a phased out 10BaseT network.

You buy a Mac because of what it can do. Not because of how it compares to a future technology. If that doesn't satisfy, then rent your equipment and turn it over every year. You'll pay twice as much but you'll be future-proof.

 

[Counter]

Me too, want a G5 Dual 2 or 2.3 now and to last 5 years.

I think it's just going to be too long for me to wait for a Mactel desktop. And if Xcode is compiling for both automatically I think a G5 PPC now will be good until 2010.

 

[crap freakboy]

"We have some great PowerPC products still coming" didn't he though!

What else could he say?
"Please don't stop buying our Macs"
"Thank god for those cash reserves! Phew"

Wish I was in a position to buy a PM, I do feel for you though....I just wouldnt know what to do.

 

[EJBasile]

Chris Rock Quote:

"You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is a Chinese guy, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are name 'Bush,' 'Dick' and 'Colon.' Need I say more?"

I think we can add:
" Microsoft is using G5 chips in there XBoxs and Apple is using Intel Processors in there Computers"

( I hate Chris Rock's voice but that is a good point he makes)

 

[mvc]

No sweat

Currently I am running a Dual 533 with Panther.

I was planning to buy a Dual 2.3, just waiting to see what the Keynote had to say. Now I am planning to buy a Dual 2.0 instead, spend less now in the expectation of upgrading in 3 years instead of 4-5, mainly because the extra speed increase by then might make me keen to upgrade again.

I fully expect that I will still be able to run up to date versions of most software from most Third Party developers on this new Dual 2.0 PPC mac in 4 years or even 6, as most will make FAT binaries just like last time (68k -> PPC), and don't forget, for every new x86 mac sold in the next two years there are hundreds of PPC Macs still in existence that software developers will want to sell upgrades and new applications to. It will take quite a few years for all those installed PPC machines to become irrelevant as potential upgrade dollars to the software firms, far longer than a typical Mac upgrade cycle of say 4 years.

So for a long time to come, most software sold or upgraded will be to people with PPC machines, not x86. I expect PPC versions of software will remain the key income producer for software houses for about the next 5 years. Are they simply going to walk away from this money?

The only likely inconvenience is that some NEW software from startup or small software firms will arrive (eventually) that only runs on x86, as happened quite abruptly with the shift to OSX vs OS9. Mostly these will be small scale applications and utilities as we saw with the change to OSX.

But the larger software firms will remain solidly supportive of PPC. Even now, many, many apps are still Carbon and run on OS9 as well, and it all goes to show that noone is really going to be left behind until their gear is truly not up to running the software.

 

[James Philp]

]

Can't you see the fallacy in this argument?

Here's a real life example: I am writing this on a phased out Web browser on a machine that runs a phased out G4 chip. My business runs on a machine with a phased out G3 chip on a pre-OSX operating system. I have plugged both of them into a state of the art Dell widescreen monitor. My happy.

My accounting is on a phased out MS OS running on a phased out VIA EPIX computer. I print on a 10 year old phased out LaserJet 4M+ printer, running on a phased out 10BaseT network.

You buy a Mac because of what it can do. Not because of how it compares to a future technology. If that doesn't satisfy, then rent your equipment and turn it over every year. You'll pay twice as much but you'll be future-proof.

No offense, but READ my post!
I was saying that I wanted a machine that would last 5 years at least, not just 3.

And it is of slightly more importance if the core CPU of your machine is no longer supported by the OS in 3 years - I said I wanted to be running the most recent Mac OS in 5 years (like I am now on the very powerbook I am typing on).

Can you really see, that if within 2 years ALL new macs will be based on intel chips, that 3 years AFTER this TOTAL transition, the Gx processors will still run the newest OS or apps?!?

Sure all products are "phased out" but I think you either didn't get or didn't bother to get what my post was about. I'm thinking of spending up to £2500 on a PM, and if it isn't running the most recent Mac OS and apps in 5 years I'm not going to be all that happy!

What I guess I'm worried about is if this 2-year transition is going to prematurely age the Gx processors. To me , I can't see how it wouldn't. Why, 3 years after a total transition, are many developers going to continue to support PPC hardware?

Sorry if I come over irritated, but I guess I am. I am not one of those "should I buy now but.." posters. I'm a long-time mac user, who is used to 5 year long product lifetimes.

 

[Lougle]

I am in the same boat. I am ready to buy a NEW Power Mac Dual 2.7 but am having second thoughts. I am afraid that software for my Power Mac may become scarce 3 years from now. However, after watching the Keynote address I am a little more confident that this will not be a problem. Apple will release the next OS X for PowerPC and developers will continue to release there software for the soon to be extinct processor. I guess the thought that sold me was can I really wait one year to buy my Power Mac? The answer is no. I need (want) my computer now. Plus, we don't even know if the first Intel based Mac will be a Power Mac. It could be that Power Mac's are the last in line for the transition. That is another reason not to wait. Also, if people were weary to install 10.4.0 before 10.4.1 came out do you really think people will jump to a new technology all together? New technologies have problems which is another reason to wait until the 2nd generation of Intel powered Macs. Plus, I will probably be ready to replace my Power Mac by the time a Intel powered Power Macs are shipping. Just my thoughts.

 

[GFLPraxis]

Developers don't NEED to support PPC when the compilers automatically make fat binaries. XCode supports it for them.

 

[James Philp]

I guess I'm worried, because in 2 years there will not be another new G5 being sold. That just scares me because in the past the power chip has been subsequently used in lower-end macs, and this will not happen. In 2 years there will be no new Gx sold anywhere. That means 3 years after this, what's the incentive to support it - or even 2 years after?

The G4 was introduced in september 1999, that's 6 years ago, and it's likely to last another year or more. The G5 was introduced in June 2003 and will be gone in the next couple of years - 4 year life. That's less than the Mac I'm typing on has been in use.

This truncated lifetime means that software may not support it in the future, as this chipset will not still be in use in lower-end systems.
Gad, I wish I could get my point over better.

 

[jaseone]

Well the PPC powered Macs are not at the end of their line and won't be for another 1 - 2 years so keep that in mind, Apple aren't about to drop all support for their existing customer base so soon after releasing te last PPC based Macs so they are going to have atleast a good few years of support if not longer after that.

Seriously if people are using this as an excuse not to buy now then I just can't see the logic... What are you going to do in the meantime? Buy a Dell? Good luck on having just the hardware on that last several years...

 

[SurfAddict]

Developers don't NEED to support PPC when the compilers automatically make fat binaries. XCode supports it for them.

Ya thats what I thought, all the PPC software should continue running even on the x86 hardware right and the x86 software on the ppc hardware? I sure hope so, this would be one truly kick ass alternative to an emulator if they could get it to work in the other hardware os (meaning if they could just put the seperate compiles on another disc for install) we might just get hit with so much software we never had

 

[IJ Reilly]

]

Can't you see the fallacy in this argument?

Here's a real life example: I am writing this on a phased out Web browser on a machine that runs a phased out G4 chip. My business runs on a machine with a phased out G3 chip on a pre-OSX operating system. I have plugged both of them into a state of the art Dell widescreen monitor. My happy.

My accounting is on a phased out MS OS running on a phased out VIA EPIX computer. I print on a 10 year old phased out LaserJet 4M+ printer, running on a phased out 10BaseT network.

You buy a Mac because of what it can do. Not because of how it compares to a future technology. If that doesn't satisfy, then rent your equipment and turn it over every year. You'll pay twice as much but you'll be future-proof.

Thank you. Some of us need some serious jet cooling. Despite everything we've seen and heard some people seem to think their G5s will evaporate in a puff of smoke the moment the first x86 Mac is shipped.

(Written on a phased-out G4/450 Cube.)

 

[Chrispy]

As ITASOR said earlier in this thread we had quite the talk about this earlier on AIM. I have a dual 2.0 that I got a few days ago and it has the chirping problem still. I am using folding@home to keep it quiet but I am considering taking up Apple's offer to let me exchange it for a SP 1.8 G5 or maybe just getting my money back and using a G4 gigabit ethernet. The only problem with this is even upgraded to the dual 1.8 G4 system that is now available the bus will still be stuck at 100MHz and that will hurt performance in WoW even with the graphics upgraded. What to do what to do...

 

[Ugg]

No offense, but READ my post!
I was saying that I wanted a machine that would last 5 years at least, not just 3.

And it is of slightly more importance if the core CPU of your machine is no longer supported by the OS in 3 years - I said I wanted to be running the most recent Mac OS in 5 years (like I am now on the very powerbook I am typing on).

Can you really see, that if within 2 years ALL new macs will be based on intel chips, that 3 years AFTER this TOTAL transition, the Gx processors will still run the newest OS or apps?!?

Sure all products are "phased out" but I think you either didn't get or didn't bother to get what my post was about. I'm thinking of spending up to £2500 on a PM, and if it isn't running the most recent Mac OS and apps in 5 years I'm not going to be all that happy!

What I guess I'm worried about is if this 2-year transition is going to prematurely age the Gx processors. To me , I can't see how it wouldn't. Why, 3 years after a total transition, are many developers going to continue to support PPC hardware?

Sorry if I come over irritated, but I guess I am. I am not one of those "should I buy now but.." posters. I'm a long-time mac user, who is used to 5 year long product lifetimes.

Ok, when the new Mactels are all introduced by the end of 2007, what percentage of Mac users are going to switch immediately? Probably less than 10%. How long will it take before 50% of mac users will switch? Probably a couple of years. So, if only 50% have switched by 2009 that means that the market for old software will still be going strong. So if you bought your computer today, that means it is very likely that your software will be supported for at least 5 years. Freeware probably won't be, and I doubt most shareware will. But anything that costs real money will be. Of course there will come a point when it doesn't make sense to support software that is supported by less than 25% of the macs in use.

It's a call only you can make, and one that the wintel crowd have dealt with all along. How many apps for Win98 are still supported today?

Apple's primary market for the new computers is going to be current Mac owners. There is no way in hades that they will drop support for millions of G3s, G4s and G5s as long as a substantial number of them are still in use.

Sure, it's disconcerting to have this spanner thrown in the works, but it also isn't nearly as dire as so many make it out to be. Don't sweat it, buy the computer you need now instead of the one you may think you might need 4 years from now.

 

[Cue]

Chris Rock Quote:

"You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is a Chinese guy, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are name 'Bush,' 'Dick' and 'Colon.' Need I say more?"

"And Greece got the Euro 2004", I just had to add this!

 

[MontyZ]

Even if these new Intel-based Macs are introduced in 2 years, Apple will still have to support the old hardware for a while, at least another 2 years, so, you can count on getting at least 4 solid years of use from your current Mac before you may have to chuck it and start all over like the rest of us.

 

[weg]

Me too, want a G5 Dual 2 or 2.3 now and to last 5 years.

I think it's just going to be too long for me to wait for a Mactel desktop. And if Xcode is compiling for both automatically I think a G5 PPC now will be good until 2010.

It's not that easy. Software needs to be tested, and just because the x86-part runs flawlessly, that doesn't mean that the PPC version has no bugs. With no more PPC Macs around, nobody will be able or willing to thoroughly test for this outdated architecture. Even worse, nobody will be developing drivers for the PPC platform anymore.

 

[cwerdna]

Even if these new Intel-based Macs are introduced in 2 years, Apple will still have to support the old hardware for a while, at least another 2 years, so, you can count on getting at least 4 solid years of use from your current Mac before you may have to chuck it and start all over like the rest of us.

If you watched the keynote (at around 25 minute mark), Jobs states that they will be introducing Intel based Macs starting next year and by this next year (WWDC again), they plan to be shipping Intel based Macs. By June 07, they expect the transition to be mostly complete and will be complete by end of 07.

BTW, I'm in the same dilemma as the OP. I was originally going to buy a PM G5 2 ghz dual or around there and was hoping for more new Power Macs to be introduced. Since PMs are so expensive and given this announcement, I'm probably just going to settle for a Mini [shudder].

[edit](add to above) partly because I already received the Dell 2001FP LCD I ordered for my future Mac. I'm still gonna get a Mac, but maybe it'll go on my next PC?
[/edit]

If anyone cares about my background...I have no Mac at home (but have 2 Macs at work: PM G5 2 ghz dual w/1 gig of RAM and G4 933 mhz tower w/512 megs [Quicksilver?]). I personally find the PM G5 to be plenty fast but the G4 933 mhz to be bordering on unusable in terms of perf. I had a G4 700 mhz iMac 15" w/384 megs which I felt to be virtually unusable IMHO.

I'm typing on my fastest home machine, a 1 ghz Athlon that I threw together I believe around Oct/Nov 2000.

 

[MontyZ]

If you watched the keynote (at around 25 minute mark), Jobs states that they will be introducing Intel based Macs starting next year and by this next year... I'm in the same dilemma as the OP. I was originally going to buy a PM G5 2 ghz dual or around there and was hoping for more new Power Macs to be introduced. Since PMs are so expensive and given this announcement, I'm probably just going to settle for a Mini [shudder].

See, this is what I think Apple needs to be worried about the most: people who were going to buy Mac computers who decide to put it off and now wait. I don't think they've adequately addressed this issue yet, and they better do it REAL QUICK before the rumor-mill fills in the blanks for everyone.

 

[sbb155]

forget the PPC

They are going to havbe little worth and little value
The intel world of processors moves VERY fast, and people are only going to put off purchases as the day gets closer to the transition
Every day you type on a PPC mac, the closer you get to obsolescence.

however, this is true of any pc.

I think that those of us who purchased macs recently just got screwed. You would be wise to hold off purchases (or buy a mini or ibook - less $$) and see what happens

Remember, apple may not survive this transition...Look what happened to market share last time.

I was in the market for a PM, as I have a PB. Instead I am selling the PB, and waiting a few years to reconsider mac.
I love my mac, but I like cutting edge. Jobs essentially said today that all his hardware products are obsolete. He "spun" it, but we all know that they are obsolete. And no one will want to buy your computer from you in a year, especially with minis, etc.

For switchers, apple is a joke. Why invest in all the software and hardware when it is going to change in the next 1-2 years. Yes, that may happen with PCs also, but not to such a drastic extent.

I am fed up, but it is my fault. I should have seen it coming when the PBs were upgraded by 0.17 Ghz and the PMs were jsut overclocked a little.

Folks, it is time to wait it out. The smart money will hold on to their $$ and the suckers will buy buy buy to keep apple afloat.

 

[emotion]

I was in the market for a PM, as I have a PB. Instead I am selling the PB, and waiting a few years to reconsider mac.
.

are you saying here that you are switching out of macosx becasue you're unsure of where it's going? that sounds a bit daft to me.

however i do see the general point you're making.

i was considering another powerbook (to compliment my 12" 1.33, and solve the probs of me and my partner both wanting to use it) but now i'm going to wait for a year. surely i'm not the only on in this position (in fact switchers are in this situation too).

the way i see it is that the situation i find myself in is slightly different to the one a desktop buyer faces. the desktop hardware is fast _now_, but expensive. the laptops slow but cheap and desparately in need of refresh (esp. the ibooks). no-one in their right mind are going to buy machines that are that out of date. how are apple gonna deal with that?

 

[Counter]

It's not that easy. Software needs to be tested, and just because the x86-part runs flawlessly, that doesn't mean that the PPC version has no bugs. With no more PPC Macs around, nobody will be able or willing to thoroughly test for this outdated architecture. Even worse, nobody will be developing drivers for the PPC platform anymore.

I guess my dilemma has turned into how much money do I want to throw away in a year or twos time. £600 for the latest maxed out Mini. Or £1600 on the latest Dual 2.3 I really want.

Mini seems like a good option but it's looking like literally zero resale value in a years time. At least I could get possibly 1 1/2 years out of the G5 and look at selling the case to a Mac museum.

Or do I feel like not buying anything cos Jobs just rolled the mother of all dice and they aren't going to land on anything for an unknown amount of time.

Anybody know of any site with the keynote in a downloadable format?

 

[deebster]

What development are we going to see on the current PPC processors before the x86 Intel ones are finally incorporated into Macs?

Steve has become pi$$ed off with the lack of progress ans has elected to use chips from a larger manufacturer, which is all well and good but in the intervening year or two are we going to have to watch Macs stagnate and be totally overtaken by Wintel boxes?

Sure OS X will still be around and that in itself will be reason enough for many people to continue with Macs (epsecially those who do not follow the tech side of things, which I imagine is quite a large percentage), but basically Apple's sales are going to take a beating.

If I were in charge of development of the PPC chips I don't think I would be pulling out all the stops to design better, faster chips now that the future is, well, elsewhere.

Can Apple survive this transition? Only time will tell, but there are surely going to be many upset long-term Mac users who need the latest and greatest hardware that in 2 years' time could still be running their businesses on the current top-of-the-line G5 PM. Will they take this well?

Ah, so many unknowns.

I was all for a getting a nice new iMac but I think for the moment I'm gonna soldier on with this iBook and see what happens over the next six months or so.