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Anyone else completely stumped?
- Thread starter James Philp
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The real concern is whether 3rd party software (and hardware) developers are going to support PPC 2 years or so after the transition (in 4 years' time). My guess is that even with Fat Binaries, PPC versions of apps will start being glitchy and slower, as developers optimise their code for the newer intel architecture.
unfaded said:
I like the fact that we wil know where the processors are going intel introduces roadmaps that detail where they are going. What i think we will see is more frequent speed bumps in all the computer lines not just every 10 months
barneygumble said:I like the fact that we wil know where the processors are going intel introduces roadmaps that detail where they are going. What i think we will see is more frequent speed bumps in all the computer lines not just every 10 months
I don't think apple is going to play 3 GHz, 3.2 GHz, 3.4 GHz increasement every 3 months, I guess they will wait for a significant amount of improvement for the customer, not just processor but graphics card and FSB ... but what do I know? , I hope...
I think the real concern here is not running PPC software on the new Intels.. it's running Intel software on PPCs. My iBook G3 is 6 years old and I still can run OS X apps on it. I want my 18month old G5 to last a good few more years, and people buying 2.7G5s would like their PowerMacs to last a good 5 years too. The fact is, that there'll be some companies who wont compile for PPC anymore, or Apple software wont like it. For example, Garageband wont run on a G3 because of the lack of AltiVec support, so does this mean iPhoto 7, 8 or 9 built for Intel may not support PPC. It'll happen one day, just as FAT files were phased out back in the 90s.
If I'm to get a PPC based mac in the next year (I was planning on getting an iBook for Uni in september)... then it's going to be the cheapest model. I wont be spending money on a 15" PowerBook when I'll want a 3.2Ghz PowerBook Intel next year!
What I dont understand about all this is how many times we've said the x86 arch is cr*p... I even have the video from WWDC 2000 about the "megaherz myth" and how powerpcs are a hella lot more efficient! AND look at the benchmarks on apple's own site! A dual 2.7 blows a dual xeon 3.6 out of the water! So... may I add.. In one years time we'll be going a step backwards! Huh.. no thanks.
If I'm to get a PPC based mac in the next year (I was planning on getting an iBook for Uni in september)... then it's going to be the cheapest model. I wont be spending money on a 15" PowerBook when I'll want a 3.2Ghz PowerBook Intel next year!
What I dont understand about all this is how many times we've said the x86 arch is cr*p... I even have the video from WWDC 2000 about the "megaherz myth" and how powerpcs are a hella lot more efficient! AND look at the benchmarks on apple's own site! A dual 2.7 blows a dual xeon 3.6 out of the water! So... may I add.. In one years time we'll be going a step backwards! Huh.. no thanks.
Bingo. I think we'll see a steady sale of the cheapest models, the Mac mini and the iBook, because some of those in need of new machine are going to buy a transitional machine that "will do" untill the switch is completed. I know I'm way up on the fence...SpaceMagic said:
Some have been comparing this switch to G3->G4->G5, but that's just plain wrong, the 601-4, G3, G4 and G5 are all PPC. The only thing we can compare this with is the old 68k->PPC transition back in the mid 90's. Back then they actually released the PPC machines within weeks of announcement and (as now) all software ran great on both platforms. Very soon big red stickers on new software told the buyers that "this software is optimized for PPC", and that ran much faster on the PPC than the old 68ks. Fair enough, as long as it lasted, but not long after that the first pieces of software only running on the new platform started to appear, that we who had a 68k machine, like my Performa 630 or one of the many Quadras out there, just couldn't run.
So, knowing a new transition is on the way, I'm not buying anything until the Rev. Bs of the new Mactels are out and I'm certain that the new platform is as good and safe as the old one (any sign of a Mac OS X virus and I'm off to a Sony or Toshiba Cell based laptop running FreeBSD faster than anyone can say Virex). If my year and a half old iBook G4 breaks down before this, I'm getting an iBook G4 (new or slightly used) as a replacement...
Looking at what Apple is planning on doing in the future, I wouldn't buy a computer and expect it to last 5 years. So don't do that.
I would buy a computer like the iMac for under $2000 and expect it to last 2 years. Then you can pick up the PowerMac Intel machine Rev A or B and really start to see some computing power.
I'm mainly a laptop user who buys a computer every 2 years, so this is going to be great for me. I'm just waiting on a new iBook, hopefully this week.
lasuther
I would buy a computer like the iMac for under $2000 and expect it to last 2 years. Then you can pick up the PowerMac Intel machine Rev A or B and really start to see some computing power.
I'm mainly a laptop user who buys a computer every 2 years, so this is going to be great for me. I'm just waiting on a new iBook, hopefully this week.
lasuther
Mitthrawnuruodo said:
moving to intel processors will in no way affect whether virii run on macosx.
it's software that a virus attacks not hardware. the software is remaining the same (macosx)
I wouldn't worry too much about a new PPC-based computer stilll being viable for 5 years. If the transition takes us out 2.5 years (to the end of 2007), I expect that well over 50% of the currently existing Mac user base will still be using PPC products at that point. We're talking millions and millions of Macs, many of which have been purchased in the past year (40% increase in Mac sales over the last 9 months). Apple can ill afford to abandon the platform so quickly. People make software to make money, and that's a big chunk of potential buyers to turn your back on, piss off, and then expect to embrace you with open arms and wallets when you go x86. Anyway, Xcode is supposed to make it easy to write fat binary, right?
If I were in the market to buy, I think I'd wait a couple of months, but not because I'm nervous about short term (next 5 years) PPC support. With all the uncertainty about Mac PPC products, enough folks willl be leery of purchasing a current Mac that Apple will have to make the deals friendlier just to keep product moving in quantity. It won't do them any good to unveil fast, cheap InteliMac's in 18 months if they've killed their market in the meantime. I expect decent (10-20%) price cuts to come before the back to school buying season begins.
If I were in the market to buy, I think I'd wait a couple of months, but not because I'm nervous about short term (next 5 years) PPC support. With all the uncertainty about Mac PPC products, enough folks willl be leery of purchasing a current Mac that Apple will have to make the deals friendlier just to keep product moving in quantity. It won't do them any good to unveil fast, cheap InteliMac's in 18 months if they've killed their market in the meantime. I expect decent (10-20%) price cuts to come before the back to school buying season begins.
Well having recently taken the plunge (April 1st) I am still happy with my decision. This remains true even WITH the future Intel equipped computers coming down the line in the next year.
I know that my G5 is currently still considered a reasonably fast system, and I still can, and will be able to run the software that I want to for now, and my expected 3 - 4 year time span of running this as my Primary computer.
Will there be a point in time during the next 3 to 5 years that I cannot run an OS-X (PPC or X86) application? Possibly. But I expected that BEFORE this news, and also I didn't expect Apple to stop development after I bought my G5.
I know that my G5 is currently still considered a reasonably fast system, and I still can, and will be able to run the software that I want to for now, and my expected 3 - 4 year time span of running this as my Primary computer.
Will there be a point in time during the next 3 to 5 years that I cannot run an OS-X (PPC or X86) application? Possibly. But I expected that BEFORE this news, and also I didn't expect Apple to stop development after I bought my G5.
Thank you for bringing some much-needed sanity into this thread. Yes, fat binaries were phased out in the 90's, yes that will happen again I'm sure. However, I'd say we're looking at 2 to 2 and a half years for a total transition to Intel procs in Macs, and that's just to the point where they've switched the line. In 2 and a half years, THEN you can buy any Mac with an Intel proc. That means that NOT ONLY do you have the millions and millions of PPC installed-base Macs that exist RIGHT NOW, you have the further million or so that will be sold in the next two and a half years to people who need to replace their Macs.840quadra said:
I think you overestimate the number of people who will wait on this. Yes, many of us will because we're tech-savvy and all up on the news and such, but we represent a fraction of the Mac userbase, which is a fraction of the general computing userbase at large. However, Joe Schmoe who's heard all about Tiger and wants a cheap new computer will still buy a Mac mini. Yes, the Power lines will probably suffer until Apple gets the chips in them (I'd imagine the PowerBook would be the first one to transition, as it's the most laggardly in the line right now). But the consumer Macs, while they may dip a bit, won't die off completely. I already know my brother will be buying a 15" PowerBook this summer, because he HAS to. He NEEDS a new computer, he WANTS a Mac, and he WANTS a 15" PowerBook. He'll buy what's here, because even if they come out with a dual-core 2GHz Yoneh Pentium M PowerBook a year from now, that'd still be another year on his Celeron 500MHz running Windows XP on a 10GB hard drive. Ouch. Even a 1.67GHz PowerBook G4 is better than that, and he'll still get plenty of use out of this.
People are acting like existing PPC Macs will up and disappear from existence June 2007, and that's simply not the case. Over the next year I believe we'll start seeing just how easy (or hard) the transition is on developers and how maintaining universal binaries is, and we'll start to get a better idea of how things will shake out. Until then, we know as much as anyone does, which isn't much. Let's not go making grand, sweeping proclomations about how the current hardware will be useless in 2 years and how Apple's going to tank because no one will buy. Chicken Little reactions are unbecoming.
I still do not own a mac - but not for long. I'm planning to purchase a pb, and was hoping for some kind of an update at WWDC. I'm still gonna get one....just might hang out for a few weeks though and see if anything interesting get's unvieled.
I'm not concerned about future pb's being intel. There will be ongoing support for ppc archtecture. Heck, only 15% of OSX users have flipped to Tiger, and only 50% expected by next year. These things take time, and Apple and the rest of the development community is going to want to make money selling you software and supporting your ppc hardware.
Regarding OP post, to guarantee 5 yrs out of a computer as your 'core' machine is unrealistic (unless you just surf the net). Technology changes too fast. I think 2-3 years is the reality of it, especially if you are doing intensive type work(photo, video, software development, etc). Buy it, use it for a few years, farm it out to the kids or nephews, and get another one.
I have trouble getting a car to last 5 years, let alone a computer....
I'm not concerned about future pb's being intel. There will be ongoing support for ppc archtecture. Heck, only 15% of OSX users have flipped to Tiger, and only 50% expected by next year. These things take time, and Apple and the rest of the development community is going to want to make money selling you software and supporting your ppc hardware.
Regarding OP post, to guarantee 5 yrs out of a computer as your 'core' machine is unrealistic (unless you just surf the net). Technology changes too fast. I think 2-3 years is the reality of it, especially if you are doing intensive type work(photo, video, software development, etc). Buy it, use it for a few years, farm it out to the kids or nephews, and get another one.
I have trouble getting a car to last 5 years, let alone a computer....
I think we should get 4 full years out of our iMacs and they should be able to use the latest apps by then.
If G5 based computers last longer than to 2009, then the worst case is that they might not be able to run the latest apps. But then again, you might want to upgrade anyway.
For those who are paranoid about Macintel, you have an option of buying a G4 based computer and use it for 3 years and then upgrade to Macintel.
If G5 based computers last longer than to 2009, then the worst case is that they might not be able to run the latest apps. But then again, you might want to upgrade anyway.
For those who are paranoid about Macintel, you have an option of buying a G4 based computer and use it for 3 years and then upgrade to Macintel.
PPC Dual 2.7
Hey, I just made my purchase yesterday of the Dual 2.7... Now I will go out and get me 2G of RAM. I'm having a great time installing all of my software programs. I do think this computer will last me 4 years down the road. I just came from a G4 733 running tiger. I could have kept going if I wanted to, but I got into video. That needs the most speed.
Anyway, as you can see, I had no problems going out and purchasing this right after the news came at WWDC. You simply buy a mac that can handle what it is that you want to do with it. Web stuff can be done with any mac that can run OSX. Video will need speed and a good card, etc.
I see this new mac taking me all the way through Leopards versions up till the next round after that. Just because it will be Intel doesnt mean that the software wont work! 2.7Ghz is 2.7Ghz. The machine is fast and as long as leopard isnt sluggish, it will always fly.
So go out there and get your new mac. At least you will have enjoyed it for the 2 years before Intel chips come out. Then it will be the usual 2-3 years of waiting for that next big thing (that most likely will be "needed" then).
Did I mention that I am having a ton of FUN with my new mac? IT SCREAMS!!! Cant wait to do some film and watch it fly.
Hey, I just made my purchase yesterday of the Dual 2.7... Now I will go out and get me 2G of RAM. I'm having a great time installing all of my software programs. I do think this computer will last me 4 years down the road. I just came from a G4 733 running tiger. I could have kept going if I wanted to, but I got into video. That needs the most speed.
Anyway, as you can see, I had no problems going out and purchasing this right after the news came at WWDC. You simply buy a mac that can handle what it is that you want to do with it. Web stuff can be done with any mac that can run OSX. Video will need speed and a good card, etc.
I see this new mac taking me all the way through Leopards versions up till the next round after that. Just because it will be Intel doesnt mean that the software wont work! 2.7Ghz is 2.7Ghz. The machine is fast and as long as leopard isnt sluggish, it will always fly.
So go out there and get your new mac. At least you will have enjoyed it for the 2 years before Intel chips come out. Then it will be the usual 2-3 years of waiting for that next big thing (that most likely will be "needed" then).
Did I mention that I am having a ton of FUN with my new mac? IT SCREAMS!!! Cant wait to do some film and watch it fly.
cwerdna said:
Okay so by June 2007 all shipping Macs will have Intel processors, what about everyone that has purchased PPC Macs up until then? Everyone including the developers of Mac software are not going to immediately switch, existing PPC Macs are not just going to disappear in a puff of smoke come June 2007, they will still be supported for several years beyond that if not longer.
This switch isn't like the switch from OS9 to OS X either, the porting effort for software is much less and it is a lot easier (almost automatic) to continue supporting both x86 and PPC binaries, of course their will be quirks between the two but for the most part I believe the code will be virtually identical.
So absolute worst case scenario you are going to be looking at full support 2 years beyond June 2007 (actually I think it will be at least 3 years as people would have purchased PPC Macs with AppleCare up until that date), so you are right in the 5 year ballpark for continued support.
Plus as it is different hardware you will find a lot of the smaller developers won't be able to switch straight away unlike the move to OS X, which just required a software upgrade for the existing Macs so the transition will take even longer.
People just need to take a chill pill... Heck my grandparents still play their original NES as it does what they need still, if a Mac does what you need now then it is going to for the forseeable future (certainly within a computer's expected liftetime) so stop whining and order your damn Macs already.
This Intel announcement is only really bad news for those who like to be on the bleeding-edge and buy everything the moment it comes out, or they feel totally inadequate and worthless. If you buy an Apple computer today, you'll still be able to use it 5-6 years from now. There are still lots of people using OS9!
here is my take on the whole situation...Steve Jobs said that the transition will near completion this time in 2 years... so I mean who knows...Apple might not put the Intel chip in the Powermac until mid 2007...but what do I know, I'm not Steve Jobs. I would bet that the current Mac hardware will run on Leopard and future applications....how fast they will be is debatable but IMO if you bought a dual 2.7 Ghz PM (I even dare say if you bought a current 2 Ghz iMac) it would run very nicely on the future OS and future Apps... obvioussly the "Mactels" will run the apps much faster.
Basically what I'm suggesting is that you should buy the Powermac if that's what you want to do... if you are waiting to have the best fastest computer on the market (hopefully) then you should wait for the "Mactel"... depending on what you do with your computer I'm sure present day PPC Macs will last you 5 years
Basically what I'm suggesting is that you should buy the Powermac if that's what you want to do... if you are waiting to have the best fastest computer on the market (hopefully) then you should wait for the "Mactel"... depending on what you do with your computer I'm sure present day PPC Macs will last you 5 years
If I can dual-boot OS X and Windows on the same machine (that would be a "killer app" for Apple's hardware sales), then I'd buy both a Powermac and a portable (Powerbook or iBook) on the first day I possibly could.Ugg said:
Being able to live and work in OS X, then reboot into Windows for some gaming to unwind? That's what I've been dreaming for since I got the Mac bug back in 2003. I even considered buying a G4 iMac and building a Frankenstein-ish PC that had the guts to both machines (PC and iMac) in one box with an internal KVM.
No, PPC Macs won't disapper in a puff of smoke in 2007, but from a sw and hw company's point of view, what's the point of continuing to support a user base (for much after 2006) that will level off probably by around 2006 and go into decline shortly after that?jaseone said:
I'm sure that even w/Rossetta there will be some compat problems (or bugs in Rossetta) that companies will have to workaround. Any hardware that requires drivers now will be in for some potentially large amount of work.
I think AppleCare plays no role in this at all. That's just a warranty and has no bearing on what other sw and hw companies will do.
If companies are not using XCode now and are using Codewarrior, boy they'll be in for a huge revamp to work on XCode and retest effort. Also, from somewhere before the 1st MacTels start shipping, all Mac companies (that care) will have to test on both PPC and MacTel. That's a lot of extra work.
(FWIW, I test Mac software for a living now, used to work on non-Macs before.)