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One of the reasons I recommend against Fusion drive is because of the slow 128 GB SSD used for the SSD portion.

You keep saying that across the forums, but where is your proof for this? The SSD part is as fast as any Apple SSD (they are the same drives they use) - the reason write speed is slower in tests is not because of the drive itself, but because of the way FD works. If it bothers you, you can split the drives and have full speed on the SSD part (although, there really isn't any need in real world usage).

The SSD part of the FD is the same as any 128Gb SSD Apple uses, it is a fast PCIe drive, usually from SanDisk. Same model - you can even check it in System Info. They literally placed two drives into the computer and used software to combine them. That's it! They get the same SSDs and HDDs from the same suppliers and use the same models. So, once and for all - no, the SSD in a FD is NOT slower.


Also - the heat issue. The difference between a SSD and HDD is around 5 degrees. And if you look where the HDD part is placed.... no, it does not increase overall system heat in any significant way and it certainly doesn't affect the CPU or GPU temperatures.
 
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You keep saying that across the forums, but where is your proof for this? The SSD part is as fast as any Apple SSD (they are the same drives they use) - the reason write speed is slower in tests is not because of the drive itself, but because of the way FD works. If it bothers you, you can split the drives and have full speed on the SSD part (although, there really isn't any need in real world usage).

The SSD part of the FD is the same as any 128Gb SSD Apple uses, it is a fast PCIe drive, usually from SanDisk. Same model - you can even check it in System Info.


Also - the heat issue. The difference between a SSD and HDD is around 5 degrees. And if you look where the HDD part is placed.... no, it does not increase overall system heat in any significant way and it doesn't affect the CPU or GPU temperatures.
You're so wrong. If you stick in a 256GB PCIe SSD in a FD configuration, you'll get far faster speeds.

On my late-2013 13" baseline rMBP (2.4/4/128GB), the 128GB clocks in only at around 400 MB/s in writes and 700 MB/s reads.

On my late-2013 21.5" iMac (3.1 i7/16/256/750M), it's got a SM0256F Samsung SSD, so it gets 670MB/s writes and 720MB/s reads. SanDisk ones clock in far slower in writes (550MB/s).

On my late-2013 13" almost-maxed out rMBP (2.8 i7/16/512), it gets 710MB/s writes and 730MB/s reads.

This is because of the drive itself, since there is less NAND chips.

The reason the larger drives perform better is a result of them having more NAND chips - this gives them greater bandwidth than smaller drives.

Think of an SSD as lots of NAND chips in an RAID 0 configuration. Data is written across several chips.

Smaller SSD = lower speeds.

The performance delta between 256GB and 512GB is much smaller, because the max throughput across the chips is almost enough to saturate the bus.

Bottom line: Drive capacity can affect performance, especially for smaller SSDs. Lower-capacity drives don't have as many flash chips, so they can't saturate all of their controllers' memory channels. That dynamic usually translates into slower write speeds for smaller drives.

Among SSDs of the same bus and capacity, performance deltas are due to the controller quality. This is clearly seen between the SD0256F and SM0512F.

Apple uses Toshiba (TS), SanDisk (SD) and Samsung (SM) in 128GB and 256GB capacities. TS is the most inferior while SM is the most superior. In 512GB and 1TB SSDs, SM is the sole supplier.
 
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You're so wrong.

On my late-2013 13" baseline rMBP (2.4/4/128GB), the 128GB clocks in only at around 400 MB/s in writes.

This is because of the drive itself, since there is less NAND chips.

The reason the larger drives perform better is a result of them having more NAND chips - this gives them greater bandwidth than smaller drives.

Think of an SSD as lots of NAND chips in an RAID 0 configuration. Data is written across several chips.

Smaller SSD = lower speeds.

The performance delta between 256GB and 512GB is much smaller, because the max throughput across the chips is almost enough to saturate the bus.

I'm just saying the 128Gb drive is the same as any other 128Gb Apple uses. They are not some 'special slow SSDs' - but the same PCIe SSDs. Yes, the smaller SSDs are slower, but they are not that slower. For example, I just purchased a Samsung 850 Pro 128Gb SSD. It has a 450Mbps speed compared to the 500Mbps of the same 256Gb SSD drive. So yes, there is some difference, but not that much. To be honest, I think 400Mbps for a late rMBP 2013 is a bit low. But the reason for that is probably that the supplier is worse (read: not Samsung).

Also, when I measure read speeds on my FD, they are 650Mbps.... (only the writes are below 400). So - the difference is around 50Mbps in reads, and writes are slower for different reasons.

TLDR: Yes, smaller SSDs are a bit slower, but not much, and Apple is not using "slower" SSDs, just smaller ones (that are a bit slower). This difference is NOT noticeable during work. So, for all practical purposes - the SSD in a FD is equally fast. There are many valid reasons one might choose a pure SSD over FD, but the speed of the SSD part of the FD is not one of them.
 
I'm just saying the 128Gb drive is the same as any other 128Gb Apple uses. They are not some 'special slow SSDs' - but the same PCIe SSDs. Yes, the smaller SSDs are slower, but they are not that slower. For example, I just purchased a Samsung 850 Pro 128Gb SSD. It has a 450Mbps speed compared to the 500Mbps of the same 256Gb SSD drive. So yes, there is some difference, but not that much. To be honest, I think 400Mbps for a late rMBP 2013 is a bit low. But the reason for that is probably that the supplier is worse (read: not Samsung).

Also, when I measure read speeds on my FD, they are 650Mbps.... (only the writes are below 400). So - the difference is around 50Mbps in reads, and writes are slower for different reasons.

TLDR: Yes, smaller SSDs are a bit slower, but not much, and Apple is not using "slower" SSDs, just smaller ones (that are a bit slower). This difference is NOT noticeable during work. So, for all practical purposes - the SSD in a FD is equally fast. There are many valid reasons one might choose a pure SSD over FD, but the speed of the SSD part of the FD is not one of them.
Well, believe it or not, my 128GB SSD was a Samsung part.

Reads and writes in the FD are actually done from the SSD itself. When measuring I/O during Blackmagic speed tests on a FD setup (friend's iMac), the I/O was all on the SSD portion. The read/write speeds in the FD are consistent with a pure 128GB PCIe SSD setup.

SanDisk SD0128F and Toshiba TS0128F SSDs will perform at around 300-370MB/s. Samsung ones perform between 400-430, depending on how full the drive is.
 
Well, believe it or not, my 128GB SSD was a Samsung part.

Reads and writes in the FD are actually done from the SSD itself. When measuring I/O during Blackmagic speed tests on a FD setup (friend's iMac), the I/O was all on the SSD portion. The read/write speeds in the FD are consistent with a pure 128GB PCIe SSD setup.

SanDisk SD0128F and Toshiba TS0128F SSDs will perform at around 300-370MB/s. Samsung ones perform between 400-430, depending on how full the drive is.

Ok, look, I don't want to argue and you could be right. But - it sounds weird to me. I think that 300-370Mbps is just too low for a PCIe SSD, SanDisk or not. The difference between 128Gb drive and 256Gb can't be 200Mbps, and I know I measured more than ~550Mbps in Blackmagic disk speed test on my friends 13" rMBP (with a 256Gb drive). My Samsung 512Gb SSD in a 15" rMBP easily hits 700Mbps in Blackmagic - so that would mean (since we both have 2013. models with Samsung drives) that your drive is almost twice as slow just because it is 128Gb? While I don't doubt your honesty, this is something hard to believe (as I mentioned, Samsung Pro and Evo drives come in 128, 256, etc. sizes and the speed difference between 128 and 256 is never more than 50Mbps!). Are you sure that your drive is working properly?

Also, if what you say is true, how do you explain the 650Mbps read speed on my FD?

Look, from what I read - and that could be wrong, but it sounds reasonable to me - the SSD part of the Fusion Drive is a standard Apple SSD (that is either SanDisk, Samsung or Toshiba). They use the same PCIe drives across the line, like the 128Gb drives they use in, say, MacBook Airs or 13" Retina MacBook Pros. So, they are not using some different, "slower" drives. Now, these PCIe drives should be fast, hitting anywhere 500-700Mbps depending on the manufacturer. The write speed is slower on the FD because (and I admit, I don't quite understand this technical stuff, I'm just interpreting what I read) the write process is a bit more complex - OS X writes on the SSD for consistency and at the same time moves this data to the HDD for permanent storage, so the result is a bit slower 350-400Mbps. Again, this is just what I read - but it matches my speeds almost to the letter: I have 650Mbps read speed and around 370Mbps write speed on my FD. If I split the two drives, writing on the pure SSD drive should be higher, while the read speeds should be unaffected.

You make a compelling argument, but if what you say is true - shouldn't I have 400Mbps read speeds on my FD (or even less)?


Either way - whether you're right or I'm right doesn't change the fact that - outside benchmarks - using the FD (when it is using the SSD part, which is, honestly, most of the time, and 100% of the time for most used apps and OS) is perceptibly not different than my pure, 512Gb Samsung PCIe SSD, which the fastest drive that Apple currently offers and, as I said, hits 700-750Mbps speeds in all the tests I tried.

So it comes down to this: claiming that some mythical "slower SSDs" are present in FDs is not true. Because when you say something like "Apple is using slower drives for FD" - everyone would naturally assume that they are not using their standard SSD drives but are, in fact, using some cheaper, slower options. Not true. If all the reviews were happy of the new PCIe speed of MacBook Airs that come with 128Gb, then all I'm saying - that's the speed you're getting from a SSD part of a FD drive. Don't scare people off - it's a very, very fast SSD. It is faster than most SSDs you find in PCs these days, it is far from "slow" and, again, the speed of the SSD portion is NOT a reason to avoid FD. Neither is temperature. Get a pure SSD if you want greater reliability and speed consistency. That's it. While the FD is running from a SSD part (again, most of the time) you will not be able to perceive a difference compared to the pure SSD. Even if benchmarks say otherwise.

My problem is that people come here for some honest advice and that this elitist attitude and phrases like "Apple uses slower SSDs" (which is debatable at best) and "FDs generate more heat" and stuff like that may confuse people and drive them off from solutions that would benefit them the most. SSDs are better, but they are NOT the best solution for everyone, as they have a great, cheaper alternative - the Fusion Drive.

/rant off :)
 
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Ok, look, I don't want to argue and you could be right. But - it sounds weird to me. I think that 300-370Mbps is just too low for a PCIe SSD, SanDisk or not. The difference between 128Gb drive and 256Gb can't be 200Mbps, and I know I measured more than ~550Mbps in Blackmagic disk speed test on my friends 13" rMBP (with a 256Gb drive). My Samsung 512Gb SSD in a 15" rMBP easily hits 700Mbps in Blackmagic - so that would mean (since we both have 2013. models with Samsung drives) that your drive is almost twice as slow just because it is 128Gb? While I don't doubt your honesty, this is something hard to believe (as I mentioned, Samsung Pro and Evo drives come in 128, 256, etc. sizes and the speed difference between 128 and 256 is never more than 50Mbps!). Are you sure that your drive is working properly?

Also, if what you say is true, how do you explain the 650Mbps read speed on my FD?

Look, from what I read - and that could be wrong, but it sounds reasonable to me - the SSD part of the Fusion Drive is a standard Apple SSD (that is either SanDisk, Samsung or Toshiba). They use the same PCIe drives across the line, like the 128Gb drives they use in, say, MacBook Airs or 13" Retina MacBook Pros. So, they are not using some different, "slower" drives. Now, these PCIe drives should be fast, hitting anywhere 500-700Mbps depending on the manufacturer. The write speed is slower on the FD because (and I admit, I don't quite understand this technical stuff, I'm just interpreting what I read) the write process is a bit more complex - OS X writes on the SSD for consistency and at the same time moves this data to the HDD for permanent storage, so the result is a bit slower 350-400Mbps. Again, this is just what I read - but it matches my speeds almost to the letter: I have 650Mbps read speed and around 370Mbps write speed on my FD. If I split the two drives, writing on the pure SSD drive should be higher, while the read speeds should be unaffected.

You make a compelling argument, but if what you say is true - shouldn't I have 400Mbps read speeds on my FD (or even less)?


Either way - whether you're right or I'm right doesn't change the fact that - outside benchmarks - using the FD (when it is using the SSD part, which is, honestly, most of the time, and 100% of the time for most used apps and OS) is perceptibly not different than my pure, 512Gb Samsung PCIe SSD, which the fastest drive that Apple currently offers and, as I said, hits 700-750Mbps speeds in all the tests I tried.

So it comes down to this: claiming that some mythical "slower SSDs" are present in FDs is not true. Because when you say something like "Apple is using slower drives for FD" - everyone would naturally assume that they are not using their standard SSD drives but are, in fact, using some cheaper, slower options. Not true. If all the reviews were happy of the new PCIe speed of MacBook Airs that come with 128Gb, then all I'm saying - that's the speed you're getting from a SSD part of a FD drive. Don't scare people off - it's a very, very fast SSD. It is faster than most SSDs you find in PCs these days, it is far from "slow" and, again, the speed of the SSD portion is NOT a reason to avoid FD. Neither is temperature. Get a pure SSD if you want greater reliability and speed consistency. That's it. While the FD is running from a SSD part (again, most of the time) you will not be able to perceive a difference compared to the pure SSD. Even if benchmarks say otherwise.

My problem is that people come here for some honest advice and that this elitist attitude and phrases like "Apple uses slower SSDs" (which is debatable at best) and "FDs generate more heat" and stuff like that may confuse people and drive them off from solutions that would benefit them the most. SSDs are better, but they are NOT the best solution for everyone, as they have a great, cheaper alternative - the Fusion Drive.

/rant off :)
All reading requires is checking whether a given part of a physical medium contains a "1" or a "0" while writting requires actually putting that "0" or "1" from the "virtual" realm into the "physical" one by means of magnetizing a part of a hard drive or charging a part of chip-based memory. In smaller SSDs, the write process can be much longer. This is why there can be such a massive delta between reads and writes.

I never said that Apple uses slower SSDs. Smaller is slower. Everybody knows that.
 
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All reading requires is checking whether a given part of a physical medium contains a "1" or a "0" while writting requires actually putting that "0" or "1" from the "virtual" realm into the "physical" one by means of magnetizing a part of a hard drive or charging a part of chip-based memory. In smaller SSDs, the write process can be much longer.

I never said that Apple uses slower SSDs. Smaller is slower. Everybody knows that.

I was mostly referring to redheelers post

"One of the reasons I recommend against Fusion drive is because of the slow 128 GB SSD used for the SSD portion."

Emphasis on 'slow'.

And he's all over the forums with that stuff.
 
I was mostly referring to redheelers post

"One of the reasons I recommend against Fusion drive is because of the slow 128 GB SSD used for the SSD portion."

Emphasis on 'slow'.

And he's all over the forums with that stuff.

He's got a point. It's downright slow compared to the 256GB and 512GB capacities, and it's because of physics, not because of any manufacturing flaws or whatever.

Bottom line: It's just slow. Let's face it. It will never match the performance of a 256GB or larger SSD, because of physics.
 
I was mostly referring to redheelers post

"One of the reasons I recommend against Fusion drive is because of the slow 128 GB SSD used for the SSD portion."

Emphasis on 'slow'.

And he's all over the forums with that stuff.

Comparatively slow to the 256 GB, yes.
 
Comparatively slow to the 256 GB, yes.
Maybe, but it is not an argument to avoid FD, like the heat, the noise or all the other BS we can read here: this system is still faster than a HDD, and when you are budget limited, it can be a good compromise for some people. Fast external storage cost more than a FD, and I prefer a FD to a slow and noisy USB3 or LAN spinner for my datas.

And like Aevan, I don't say FD is the best system, I just say it can be a good compromise fore some people. And I'm sick of reading BS like "FD is crap, is slow, is noisy, will put your iMac on fire because of the heat..." Come on guys, you prefer pure SSD, OK, no need to misinform other people about it.
 
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Maybe, but it is not an argument to avoid FD, like the heat, the noise or all the other BS we can read here: this system is still fatser than a HDD, and when you are budget limited, it can be a good compromise for some people. Fast external storage cost more than a FD, and I prefer a FD to a slow and noisy USB3 or LAN spinner for my datas.

And like Aevan, I don't say FD is the best system, I just say it can be a good compromise fore some people. And I'm sick of reading BS like "FD is crap, is slow, is noisy, will put your iMac on fire because of the heat..." Come on guys, you prefer pure SSD, OK, no need to misinform other people about it.

It can be a good compromise for those on a budget. I'm just trying to inform people that when they pay less they get less, since they wouldn't be paying extra for a Retina iMac if they like sacrifices. The fact remains: Fusion drive is slower and noisier than 256 GB pure SSD.
 
It can be a good compromise for those on a budget. I'm just trying to inform people that when they pay less they get less, since they wouldn't be paying extra for a Retina iMac if they like sacrifices. The fact remains: Fusion drive is slower and noisier than 256 GB pure SSD.
That's true. And here is another fact: a Mac with Fusion drive is also faster and quieter than a pure SSD iMac with an external USB3 spinner retrieving datas next to him. ;)
 
That's true. And here is another fact: a Mac with Fusion drive is also faster and quieter than a pure SSD iMac with an external USB3 spinner retrieving datas next to him. ;)

A good 7200 RPM USB 3 HDD can be just as fast as the HDD in the Fusion drive. As for the noise factor, I get what you mean, but of course the drive can always be hidden to reduce noise.
 
That's true. And here is another fact: a Mac with Fusion drive is also faster and quieter than a pure SSD iMac with an external USB3 spinner retrieving datas next to him. ;)

Well it's always better to have the spinner break externally than internally. Taking apart the iMac just to get at the spinner is no small feat, and it voids your warranty too.

With a broken external time, system downtime is almost zero, because you can still operate it. With a broken Fusion Drive, you've to send it back to Apple for repairs, and that takes a few days.
 
A good 7200 RPM USB 3 HDD can be just as fast as the HDD in the Fusion drive. As for the noise factor, I get what you mean, but of course the drive can always be hidden to reduce noise.
You're right. :)
But until Apple don't propose an affordable 3TB SSD option, I will stick with Fusion Drive: it reads datas you often use faster than a HDD. You don't bother with the cables, with the noise and place of external storage... You save USB ports, your back up workflow is more simple (one drive to back up, and system+datas are safe).
And concerning the noise, I can't hear the spinner in the Mac, just the fan (and I have a late 2013, which seems quieter than the late Retina).

When I'll be rich and can afford fast and quiet external storage, maybe I will switch to all SSD :)

----------

Well it's always better to have the spinner break externally than internally. Taking apart the iMac just to get at the spinner is no small feat, and it voids your warranty too.

With a broken external time, system downtime is almost zero, because you can still operate it. With a broken Fusion Drive, you've to send it back to Apple for repairs, and that takes a few days.
Yes, it's a good point when you really need your machine.
With Apple Care in my city (Paris), a technician come at home to repair your machine, it is often done in one day... And as my machine is not for professionnal purpose and I'm paranoid with my back up, if the spinner breaks, my datas are safe and I'm not in a hurry.
And I can boot on my back-up clone, where system+datas are (thank you 3TB FB!) ;)

I really hope the HDD in my late 2013 will be like the one in my late 2007: still spinning 8 years later! :)
 
Well it's always better to have the spinner break externally than internally. Taking apart the iMac just to get at the spinner is no small feat, and it voids your warranty too.

With a broken external time, system downtime is almost zero, because you can still operate it. With a broken Fusion Drive, you've to send it back to Apple for repairs, and that takes a few days.

Good point. HDD failure in a Fusion drive is a lot harder to cope with, even if it fails in warranty.

When I'll be rich and can afford fast and quiet external storage, maybe I will switch to all SSD :)

You don't have to be rich to afford $100 2 TB 7200 RPM USB 3 storage ;)
 
I was mostly referring to redheelers post

"One of the reasons I recommend against Fusion drive is because of the slow 128 GB SSD used for the SSD portion."...

There is simply no basis for him making a generic statement like that. On my 2013 iMac Fusion Drive reads are 650 MB/sec. Yet it's coming from a "slow" 128GB SSD. How is that slow? How much faster on reads is a pure internal SSD?

I believe starting in 2013 the iMac internal SSD interface went from SATA to PCIe, which is considerably faster and shows up in benchmarks. He may have confused speed restrictions from the older interface with the drive type. E.g, a 2012 iMac with SATA-interface Fusion Drive would look slower than a 2013 iMac with pure SSD. However when comparing 2013 vs 2013 or PCIe vs PCIe, there's often not that much difference in read rate between SSD and Fusion Drive.
 
There is simply no basis for him making a generic statement like that. On my 2013 iMac Fusion Drive reads are 650 MB/sec. Yet it's coming from a "slow" 128GB SSD. How is that slow? How much faster on reads is a pure internal SSD?

I believe starting in 2013 the iMac internal SSD interface went from SATA to PCIe, which is considerably faster and shows up in benchmarks. He may have confused speed restrictions from the older interface with the drive type. E.g, a 2012 iMac with SATA-interface Fusion Drive would look slower than a 2013 iMac with pure SSD. However when comparing 2013 vs 2013 or PCIe vs PCIe, there's often not that much difference in read rate between SSD and Fusion Drive.

Once again, it is comparatively slow, since slow has no meaning on its own. For instance, even a 5400 RPM HDD can't be labeled as slow until it is compared to a 7200 RPM HDD or SSD. In this case I'm comparing the 128 GB SSD used in Fusion drive to the 256 GB SSD used in SSD-only iMacs after the switch to PCIe, implied by the post I quoted.
 
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...I'm comparing the 128 GB SSD used in Fusion drive to the 256 GB SSD used in SSD-only iMacs after the switch to PCIe, implied by the post I quoted.

My average read performance from the 128GB SSD on my Fusion Drive is around 650-690 MB/sec. The numbers I've seen for a 256GB and larger SSD on the 2013 iMac are in the low 700s. That is a tiny difference. Is that the basis for your statement, or are you looking at something else?
 
My average read performance from the 128GB SSD on my Fusion Drive is around 650-690 MB/sec. The numbers I've seen for a 256GB and larger SSD on the 2013 iMac are in the low 700s. That is a tiny difference. Is that the basis for your statement, or are you looking at something else?

You seem to have ignored the write performance.
 
My average read performance from the 128GB SSD on my Fusion Drive is around 650-690 MB/sec. The numbers I've seen for a 256GB and larger SSD on the 2013 iMac are in the low 700s. That is a tiny difference. Is that the basis for your statement, or are you looking at something else?

As mentioned in yjchua95's post, the write speeds are what suffer the most. Read speeds also take a small hit but the difference isn't as huge. It also depends on the brand of SSD, you've likely got a Samsung.
 
As mentioned in yjchua95's post, the write speeds are what suffer the most. Read speeds also take a small hit but the difference isn't as huge. It also depends on the brand of SSD, you've likely got a Samsung.

When it comes to 'responsiveness', the read speeds are what matter most.

But writes matter too when it comes to write-intensive operations like video editing.

Footnote: I'm a cinematographer.
 
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