2019 Macbook Air 13" keyboards: More reliable than older butterfly keyboards?

[mj_]

You seem to be acknowledging that there are fewer failures with the 2019 BF KB. One or two examples of failures is nothing given the millions and millions in the wild. Given the fact that the BF KB is on everyone's radar, I would not be surprised if other KB have just as many failures.

If you want to continue to repeat warnings and old news about the BF KB, that's fine. Everyone needs a hobby. Given the 4 year warranty and the improved reliability, I just think the real risk to the consumer is being way overblown at this point.

Yes, I am acknowledging the fact that they improved the Butterfly keyboard's reliability in two ways. First by addressing the sticky keys issue very early on (as early as 2017, in fact), and second by adding a silicone membrane in-between the keycaps and the switches thereby greatly reducing the probability of dirt entering that sensitive area in the first place. It's important to note that they reduced the probability but have not found a way to prevent it from happening entirely.

I think the main difference between us is that you seem to think this is plenty for consumer protection, and given the 4-year replacement program nobody need worry about an issue that is, in your own words, way overblown and ridiculous. I, on the other hand, absolutely and strongly disagree with that notion. That's fine though, and we can agree to disagree. Since the 2019 generation is fairly new only time will tell which one of was was right.

 

[Mainsail]

Yes, I am acknowledging the fact that they improved the Butterfly keyboard's reliability in two ways. First by addressing the sticky keys issue very early on (as early as 2017, in fact), and second by adding a silicone membrane in-between the keycaps and the switches thereby greatly reducing the probability of dirt entering that sensitive area in the first place. It's important to note that they reduced the probability but have not found a way to prevent it from happening entirely.

I think the main difference between us is that you seem to think this is plenty for consumer protection, and given the 4-year replacement program nobody need worry about an issue that is, in your own words, way overblown and ridiculous. I, on the other hand, absolutely and strongly disagree with that notion. That's fine though, and we can agree to disagree. Since the 2019 generation is fairly new only time will tell which one of was was right.

Fair enough.

To be accurate and complete, the 2019 BF KB had two significant improvements over the prior iteration:

1. It appears that the dome switch was been changed to an improved heat treated material. There are many that speculated that the failures of the older KBs had less to do with dust, and more to do with the hardness of the dome switch.

2. The 2019 BF KB uses a nylon membrane, which per Apple Insider: "In speaking to material scientists, and other hardware engineers, we suspect that the tackiness of the silicone in the 2018 keyboard may cause debris to stick in place, similar to how pocket lint adheres to the outside of an iPhone case made out of similar material. By switching to nylon, which does have a higher propensity for static, dust may not stick in-place as easily as before. "

 

[jgorman]

Even if Apple plans to remove the butterfly keyboard from next year's models, Apple still faces legal trouble over it. One of the main issues in the class action lawsuit over these keyboards is whether the keyboard warranty is an adequate solution. If Apple sold a person a computer with a faulty keyboard, and then Apple proposes the fix is replacing it with a faulty keyboard, I can understand why there would be a dispute.

https://www.macrumors.com/2019/12/02/apple-butterfly-keyboard-lawsuit-proceeds/

 

[hipnetic]

FWIW, I just bought a 2018 MBA 13, even though I'm not a fan of the Butterfly keyboards. I have one on my company-supplied 2016 MBP 15. It has a sticky "E" key that I need to get fixed at some point, and my wife hates when I use it anywhere near her because it's so loud. I bought my wife a 2018 MBA last year, since she was overdue for an upgrade from her old (I forget the year) MBA 13 pre-Retina, and all semi-new models had the Butterfly keyboard, so there wasn't a great alternative option.

Her keyboard is *so* much quieter than my 2016 MBP 15, but she recently started complaining about a couple of sticky keys. The problem doesn't seem to be too bad (yet), though, as I played around with it and couldn't recreate the issue.

Anyway, back to me...my late-2013 MBP 13 w/8GB RAM and 256GB storage was starting to feel too constrained, as I was regularly hitting the RAM limit (just browsing with lots of tabs open) and I was close to my 256GB storage limit without much obvious that I could cut back on to free up space. So I was thinking about getting a MBP 16 with at least 32GB of RAM and probably just 512GB storage. Figured I'd bump up to one of the i9 8-core chips, too. That would all be around $3000, depending on specific options. Ugh. Did I want to spend that much? Plus, while the larger screen is nice to have, my MBP 15 feels "big" when I bring it around to other rooms of my house and use it on my lap. My ideal device is probably more of a MBP 13 with new/old (scissor) keyboard, but those aren't out yet.

So I made a bit of an impulse buy today. B&H had an extra-deep discount on a 2018 MBA 13 w/16GB RAM and 512GB storage for $1200. Less than half the price of a MBP 16. I figure it will tide me over for at least the next year and, by then, a MBP 13 with scissor keyboard will probably be out. Or maybe I'll decide by then that I want a 16, even with the extra size/weight.

But my point in commenting here is that I figure that the 2018 MBA keyboard should be "good enough" for the next year for me, and I should be able to resell or trade-in and not sweat the depreciation too much. I checked Apple's trade-in offer today using my wife's 2018 MBA 13 w/8GB RAM and 256GB storage, and they quoted $590. The 2018 model I just bought has more RAM and storage, but a year from now, it will probably still garner a trade-in offer less than that $590 price, so who knows if it will be worth trading in versus going through the trouble of selling on my own.

But here's another interesting possibility...depending on how this class action lawsuit goes, it's possible that Apple could offer some sort of "extra great" trade-in offer towards a non-Butterfly MacBook, such that these arguably-problematic Butterfly models could end up actually being desirable for trade-in purposes.

 

[Mainsail]

FWIW, I just bought a 2018 MBA 13, even though I'm not a fan of the Butterfly keyboards. I have one on my company-supplied 2016 MBP 15. It has a sticky "E" key that I need to get fixed at some point, and my wife hates when I use it anywhere near her because it's so loud. I bought my wife a 2018 MBA last year, since she was overdue for an upgrade from her old (I forget the year) MBA 13 pre-Retina, and all semi-new models had the Butterfly keyboard, so there wasn't a great alternative option.

Her keyboard is *so* much quieter than my 2016 MBP 15, but she recently started complaining about a couple of sticky keys. The problem doesn't seem to be too bad (yet), though, as I played around with it and couldn't recreate the issue.

Anyway, back to me...my late-2013 MBP 13 w/8GB RAM and 256GB storage was starting to feel too constrained, as I was regularly hitting the RAM limit (just browsing with lots of tabs open) and I was close to my 256GB storage limit without much obvious that I could cut back on to free up space. So I was thinking about getting a MBP 16 with at least 32GB of RAM and probably just 512GB storage. Figured I'd bump up to one of the i9 8-core chips, too. That would all be around $3000, depending on specific options. Ugh. Did I want to spend that much? Plus, while the larger screen is nice to have, my MBP 15 feels "big" when I bring it around to other rooms of my house and use it on my lap. My ideal device is probably more of a MBP 13 with new/old (scissor) keyboard, but those aren't out yet.

So I made a bit of an impulse buy today. B&H had an extra-deep discount on a 2018 MBA 13 w/16GB RAM and 512GB storage for $1200. Less than half the price of a MBP 16. I figure it will tide me over for at least the next year and, by then, a MBP 13 with scissor keyboard will probably be out. Or maybe I'll decide by then that I want a 16, even with the extra size/weight.

But my point in commenting here is that I figure that the 2018 MBA keyboard should be "good enough" for the next year for me, and I should be able to resell or trade-in and not sweat the depreciation too much. I checked Apple's trade-in offer today using my wife's 2018 MBA 13 w/8GB RAM and 256GB storage, and they quoted $590. The 2018 model I just bought has more RAM and storage, but a year from now, it will probably still garner a trade-in offer less than that $590 price, so who knows if it will be worth trading in versus going through the trouble of selling on my own.

But here's another interesting possibility...depending on how this class action lawsuit goes, it's possible that Apple could offer some sort of "extra great" trade-in offer towards a non-Butterfly MacBook, such that these arguably-problematic Butterfly models could end up actually being desirable for trade-in purposes.

I think your strategy is a good one. The only downside is that the 2019 MBA KB has some fixes (different membrane material & hardened dome switch) when compared to the 2018 version. But, if you have a problem, Apple will replace the 2018 KB with a 2019 version, so at worst, it maybe a one time inconvenience. Not a big deal. You also get True Tone on the 2019 MBA....again, not a big deal.

 

[throAU]

Keyboard issues or not, late 2019 is NOT the time to be buying a portable computer if you can wait. Whether it is apple or otherwise.

On the cusp of CPU count increases, new GPU refreshes and in the case of Apple, potentially new keyboard as well. Plus, intel are still having a bad time with security problems, and those aren't resolved yet - everything they have out at the moment is just another crappy revision of skylake and thus inherently pretty flawed.

 

[smirking]

So I made a bit of an impulse buy today. B&H had an extra-deep discount on a 2018 MBA 13 w/16GB RAM and 512GB storage for $1200.

I just made the same jump except it's to replace my wife's 2012 MBP that's having some funky power issues.

But here's another interesting possibility...depending on how this class action lawsuit goes...

You're definitely a glass half full kind of guy.

 

[ATC]

My wife has had a 2019 MBA since they were launched and she is really rough with her laptops. She has yet to have an issue with the keyboard and its worked perfectly for her since day 1 if that's any help to your question.

+1

Got my wife the 2019 MBA back in July. She's a college instructor and uses her MBA daily, with long hours of typing. I'm not exaggerating when I say she's very rough on it, and has a habit of eating while working. I have to wipe her keyboard surface clean a couple of times a week so it doesn't get nasty - I usually find chips and other crumbs all over it. And the keyboard has been flawless.

I don't know exactly what Apple changed in this iteration of the KB but from our experience I would say the 2019 butterfly KB is reliable.

 

[AustinIllini]

Keyboard issues or not, late 2019 is NOT the time to be buying a portable computer if you can wait. Whether it is apple or otherwise.

On the cusp of CPU count increases, new GPU refreshes and in the case of Apple, potentially new keyboard as well. Plus, intel are still having a bad time with security problems, and those aren't resolved yet - everything they have out at the moment is just another crappy revision of skylake and thus inherently pretty flawed.

this can be said almost any generation.

If you need a machine, get it. If you don't need it, you're better off waiting. That's all tech all the time.

 

[Cameront9]

I've had a 2019 since October and have had zero issues with it. I'm also very careful about not eating around it or getting crumbs. While I would love to have gotten the scissor switch keyboard, I needed the new machine more.

 

[Mainsail]

I agree. If you need a computer now, just go for it. There are still some great holiday deals.

At this point, unless you hate the feel of the BF Keyboard, I really don't understand the whole keyboard paranoia. I see folks on other threads saying they are going to wait for the new scissor mechanism before buying a 13in MBA or MBP because they are afraid of failures. That seems silly to me. The 2019 BF KB is holding up just fine, and you get an extended warranty.

Look at the 16in MBP. Sure it has the scissor mechanism, but people are already reporting numerous other complaints. I am sure Apple will work these things out, and it will be a great computer. But, there is no such thing as a perfect laptop.

So, Apple could go through all of the expense and trouble of redesigning and retooling the 13in 2019 MBA/MBP only to have other issues crop up that are way worse than the current BF KB, which is largely resolved.

 

[smirking]

I agree. If you need a computer now, just go for it. There are still some great holiday deals.

Some of the deals like that killer B&H deal on a 2018 MBA that @hipnetic referenced above might have a reason for being so cheap. He got two bad units in a row and I got one myself that's currently being RMA'd.
Sigh.

Regardless, I'm willing to take a chance on another shipment even though he got two duds in a row. If my second one is a dud too, I can always take it to Apple for warranty repair.

 

[roncron]

For what it's worth:

My work computer is a 2016 13" MBP with Touch Bar (the first MBP with Touch Bar) and 2nd gen butterfly keyboard that's noisy and error-prone. The errors are intermittent, and my employer's tech guy has not been able to replicate them. The typing experience is so bad that I use an external bluetooth keyboard.

My computer at home is a 2018 MBA with a 3rd gen butterfly keyboard that's much quieter and--for about 6 months or so--was error free. But for the past few months, I'm getting repeating keysssssss sometimes. Enough to be annoying. (I have a Genius Bar appointment later today to have it tested--and hopefully replaced.)

The 2019 MBA has a 4th gen butterfly keyboard and, anecdotally (by scanning forums like these), it seems far fewer people are having problems. Plus there's the extended warranty on the keyboard. So I would feel confident enough to buy one.

Except that 2020 might bring back the scissor-mechanism keyboard to more Macbook models, according to reports by Ming-Chi Kuo and others. I don't really like buying computers more than once every three years, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy a 2020 MBA with a scissor keyboard and spec bump.

 

[smirking]

But for the past few months, I'm getting repeating keysssssss sometimes. Enough to be annoying.

Try holding the S key down firmly and jiggling it clockwise and then counterclockwise a few times. I had a glitchy 2016 MBP that would respond to that. I’ve had to do that on my 2018 a couple of times too and it worked well.