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MP All Models 2023 Mac Pro! [MERGED]
- Thread starter OW22
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What's the volume sales for such a niche device? Would resoures be better spent making more emojis? Those art work would likely create more revenue than any Apple dGPU.
My Clevo laptop (CPU, GPU, memory, storage, battery) is more replaceable/upgradeable than this 'pro' machine (storage, PCIE slots). 🙄
Man who can’t see a need stomps his feet and declares it dead.
Very unlikely Apple will release Apple dGPU for new Mac Pros.
The reasoning behind it is simple: if Apple is going to do that, it'll simply deploy new AMD dGPUs which will save Apple lots of R&D cost and be much more performant (than Apple dGPU).
There is good reason Apple do their own SoCs. Little reason to do their own dGPUs. Cook's motto: we'll do it ourselves if we could improve it in a much better way.
One day (far into the distant future) Apple has excellent GPUs. Perhaps they'll put it into a discrete card for Mac Pros.
Actually think of it more as a additional compute unit. Rather than GPU
Well as I understand it they have sold about 80,000 MPX units separate to the mac pro as upgrades. This came from a an Apple Mac Pro executive at a special event I addended. So that at least $250-$500m in sales right there
Same fate for "compute unit" just like dGPUs.
Lots of folks wishfully thinking the new Mac Pro will be some kind of a blade system i.e. multiple compute cards, GPGPUs and blah. Sounds like trivial R&D money is needed to accomplish that.
By the time Apple let go the Nuvia team the fate of Apple Silicon server/workstation chips were sealed. Apple is even struggling with gluing two M1 Ultra together to be commercially profitable.
That's for nearly 4 years, correct?
Last quarter of iPhones is $51.3 billion.
This is why Mac Pro is always refreshed every ~4 years.
Good thing with its transition to Apple Silicon it now has the potential of being refreshed with the Mac Studio.
3nm M3 Ultra? Likely to occur Q1 2025 rather than H2 2027.
How does the 5nm M2 Ultra's GPU compare to any of the Apple MPX Graphics Modules? It has to outperform (almost) all of them in terms of raw performance considering it is a 5nm part with the improved latency of being on the SoC. Not to mention it has to have a better performance per watt as well.
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Er… so you’ve not done studio or event work with multi camera ingest… thunderbolt can’t handle
22 8k camera ingest… pCIE cards can.
DeckLink | Blackmagic Design
DeckLink are high performance capture cards for Mac, Windows and Linux with support for 12G-SDI and 8K.
www.blackmagicdesign.com
Is there a large enough market for that if the cost goes above $10k?
Many here are complaining about the $7k base Mac Pro. What more a 5 figure one?
I don't think this new MacPro is expensive. While its 3K costlier than a similar performing Studio, one could argue that the Studio is a loss leader. But the extra cost is 10% more than the intel MacPro's entry level price, and that was four years ago. And that machine needed upgrading, but for lots of types of work, would be much slower than this base level MacPro.
As far as those who have PCIe GPU cards - they are sunk costs. Don't cry about spilt milk. Them working on M architecture was always a dream.
But ... if only they'd made the CPU upgradeable. They'd have sold a tonne of them actually ... to even enthusiasts. But without CPU upgradability, the machine is not even an echo of the past. And Apple could have done that fairly easily IMO, considering the time they have had to do so.
And there is a major negative about Apple. Namely value, and their desire to "own" their customers.
Also Apple carries on about sustainability and recycling and no chemicals and solar powered factories. But their premier product isn't upgradeable. That is not a sustainable practice. Its planned obsolescence.
If people laugh at the expense and non upgradability of the premier Apple product, then that filters across all Apple products. When people get embarrassed to buy a high end iPhone because its ludicrously expensive, then maybe the Apple pack of cards business model will start to wobble?
I've liked the ease of Apple, but while system 8.5 was magnificent except for some crashes, and then system X was stable, life was good. Jobs had turned the company, he had a vision, and it looked like Apple would survive. Intuitive, easy to use, and even fun! You paid a bit more, but the quality was great, and it was so natural to use. But now, OS changes make me have to re learn, and every update, I am nervous. The Mac OS keeps getting more difficult. I've found it easier to use Windows in some cases, because I know where to go to install something - the OS behaves much the same as it has for years. But Apple's freaking OS keeps re-inventing the wheel, and its no longer intuitive. Docks come and go, windows for apps come and then go, the icon driven System Preferences is gone replaced by a noddy incoherent list of cobbled together text based items that look like a children's playbook or maybe a failed 1997 unix GUI interface taken from a company that never made it.
I can buy a PC that will give me all the software I need (Apple often doesn't such as with Sketchup) and that PC will be upgradeable and low cost, and I can buy a smart phone for half the price of an Apple phone and it will take better pictures, and I can buy a notebook for a fraction of the price and it can survive a coffee spill if I buy one with a spill proof keyboard - and then I'l be free of the Apple eco system that wants to totally own every device I want to add. Well maybe its best to be free of the whole deal. Shame my wife loves her iPad so much ... and now my 2017 MacBook Pro cannot even run the latest OS. While a 2017 Intel notebook can run Win 11 no probs, after easily upgrading the RAM simms. And since Apple replaced the keyboard for free - after me kicking up a stink - then they had to replace the screen. Then the motherboard for a battery (how crazy is it to replace a motherboard for a battery)? And now the MacBook Pro freezes every now and then. Meanwhile my 5,1 keeps on keeping on and has been bulletproof.
As far as those who have PCIe GPU cards - they are sunk costs. Don't cry about spilt milk. Them working on M architecture was always a dream.
But ... if only they'd made the CPU upgradeable. They'd have sold a tonne of them actually ... to even enthusiasts. But without CPU upgradability, the machine is not even an echo of the past. And Apple could have done that fairly easily IMO, considering the time they have had to do so.
And there is a major negative about Apple. Namely value, and their desire to "own" their customers.
Also Apple carries on about sustainability and recycling and no chemicals and solar powered factories. But their premier product isn't upgradeable. That is not a sustainable practice. Its planned obsolescence.
If people laugh at the expense and non upgradability of the premier Apple product, then that filters across all Apple products. When people get embarrassed to buy a high end iPhone because its ludicrously expensive, then maybe the Apple pack of cards business model will start to wobble?
I've liked the ease of Apple, but while system 8.5 was magnificent except for some crashes, and then system X was stable, life was good. Jobs had turned the company, he had a vision, and it looked like Apple would survive. Intuitive, easy to use, and even fun! You paid a bit more, but the quality was great, and it was so natural to use. But now, OS changes make me have to re learn, and every update, I am nervous. The Mac OS keeps getting more difficult. I've found it easier to use Windows in some cases, because I know where to go to install something - the OS behaves much the same as it has for years. But Apple's freaking OS keeps re-inventing the wheel, and its no longer intuitive. Docks come and go, windows for apps come and then go, the icon driven System Preferences is gone replaced by a noddy incoherent list of cobbled together text based items that look like a children's playbook or maybe a failed 1997 unix GUI interface taken from a company that never made it.
I can buy a PC that will give me all the software I need (Apple often doesn't such as with Sketchup) and that PC will be upgradeable and low cost, and I can buy a smart phone for half the price of an Apple phone and it will take better pictures, and I can buy a notebook for a fraction of the price and it can survive a coffee spill if I buy one with a spill proof keyboard - and then I'l be free of the Apple eco system that wants to totally own every device I want to add. Well maybe its best to be free of the whole deal. Shame my wife loves her iPad so much ... and now my 2017 MacBook Pro cannot even run the latest OS. While a 2017 Intel notebook can run Win 11 no probs, after easily upgrading the RAM simms. And since Apple replaced the keyboard for free - after me kicking up a stink - then they had to replace the screen. Then the motherboard for a battery (how crazy is it to replace a motherboard for a battery)? And now the MacBook Pro freezes every now and then. Meanwhile my 5,1 keeps on keeping on and has been bulletproof.
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It was pointed out to me that TB4 tops out at 40Gbps.
PCIe 4.0 has a 16 GT/s data rate.
TB5, that is expected to come out in early 2024 & is within the same time frame as 3nm M3, will top out at 80 Gbps.
I believe the new Mac Pro will serve its target audience well i.e. those who need PCIe slots.
It upsets a small subset of users who need multiple, powerful, latest gen GPUs, and a smaller subset of users who typically riding off less expensive PC parts for memory, GPUs and/or CPUs.
Younger programmers are displacing older folks at Apple. Apple is also wooing younger generations in their customer base which are usually 'better' spenders. So naturally things are made for what younger people are accustomed to. I'm just trying to justify the phenomenon. I understand what you're saying. 🙂
As another poster mentioned above, now is perhaps a very good time to do yet a final, powerful hackintosh if you have the time to spend. Get the most powerful Mac that Apple will never do, and enjoy it for the next five years.
I'd say it's almost the opposite, watching the WWDC keynote is like checking in on the same tired old executives that have been in the same positions, making the same mistakes for the past 10 years or so.
A lot of Apple's tinkering in the past few years, seems like change for change's sake and feels a lot like some gray-haired "cool" exec trying to prove that he's still got it.
Maybe it's time Apple put some younger people in charge.
AndreeOnline
macrumors 6502a
So! Apple DID launch the Mac Pro after all—great!
At least now everyone knows where things stand and that is good.
And with the cards on the table, the AS Mac Pro is exactly as expected and predicted: the same AS chips as in the other computers, dropped "external" (in relation to AS) GPUs, but with PCIe expandability.
To minimize overlap with the Mac Studio to some extent, Apple starts the Mac Pro at the Ultra level and we go from there.
Observations
The Mac Pro case is $3000. You get PCIe expansion, room for internal SSD and HDD solutions and... bragging rights I guess. This case is a decoration piece in its own right and a nice eye-catcher for those who wants that.
If you want max AS performance, but don't use expansion cards at all, you can save $3000 by going Mac Studio and opt for external storage.
The loss of 'proper' GPUs was expected. It's a fork in the road in the Mac community and we'll lose some users here. Somehow I feel this almost adds value to my Intel Mac Pro as it will be possible to max it out over time as parts become available on the used market (as opposed to becoming 'old tech' overnight). The way the situation is now, the Intel Mac Pro offers something that we'll likely not see going forward.
Reduction of max RAM capacity: a complete non-issue for 97% of users. A whole buch of those complaining now are probably using an "Intel system RAM mindset" and applying it 1:1 to AS. Haven't we already seen that this doesn't pan out? The early AS 8GB RAM(!) systems didn't show any of the traditional limitations normally connected to low RAM systems. That said, I'm sure there are scientific or ML use-cases that rely on RAM... maybe? If someone knows of a test that shows the weaknesses of the AS 192 GB RAM limit—please link (do NOT link to tests of PCs that run out of RAM—it's not the same; the memory architecture is completely different on a system level).
Not expecting any type of upgradability later on, which is a shame since the case would be good for many years if there was an official way to upgrade to later generations of AS. It's similar to how the 5K screen in iMacs lasted way longer than the other internals and became the baby that was thrown out with the water.
Going forward
It will be interesting to see how dual or quad W6800s stack up against the Ultra 76 in practical tests that stress the GPUs. I think the Intel Mac Pro will retain decent value at least over the next 1-2 years. The 7.1 will be the new 5.1 to some extent, as it increasingly becomes a dead end and studios are willing to let go of it on the used market.
Anyway, at least the bandaid has been ripped off. Over the last few months we've listened to many vocal critics considering this and that. But trying to remeber all the different user names now, I think maybe 2 or 3 comes to mind that are actually using pretty loaded 7.1s. A lot of the noise has been from the old 5.1 camp. At least now, they can finally let go—and build that sweet PC.
At least now everyone knows where things stand and that is good.
And with the cards on the table, the AS Mac Pro is exactly as expected and predicted: the same AS chips as in the other computers, dropped "external" (in relation to AS) GPUs, but with PCIe expandability.
To minimize overlap with the Mac Studio to some extent, Apple starts the Mac Pro at the Ultra level and we go from there.
Observations
The Mac Pro case is $3000. You get PCIe expansion, room for internal SSD and HDD solutions and... bragging rights I guess. This case is a decoration piece in its own right and a nice eye-catcher for those who wants that.
If you want max AS performance, but don't use expansion cards at all, you can save $3000 by going Mac Studio and opt for external storage.
The loss of 'proper' GPUs was expected. It's a fork in the road in the Mac community and we'll lose some users here. Somehow I feel this almost adds value to my Intel Mac Pro as it will be possible to max it out over time as parts become available on the used market (as opposed to becoming 'old tech' overnight). The way the situation is now, the Intel Mac Pro offers something that we'll likely not see going forward.
Reduction of max RAM capacity: a complete non-issue for 97% of users. A whole buch of those complaining now are probably using an "Intel system RAM mindset" and applying it 1:1 to AS. Haven't we already seen that this doesn't pan out? The early AS 8GB RAM(!) systems didn't show any of the traditional limitations normally connected to low RAM systems. That said, I'm sure there are scientific or ML use-cases that rely on RAM... maybe? If someone knows of a test that shows the weaknesses of the AS 192 GB RAM limit—please link (do NOT link to tests of PCs that run out of RAM—it's not the same; the memory architecture is completely different on a system level).
Not expecting any type of upgradability later on, which is a shame since the case would be good for many years if there was an official way to upgrade to later generations of AS. It's similar to how the 5K screen in iMacs lasted way longer than the other internals and became the baby that was thrown out with the water.
Going forward
It will be interesting to see how dual or quad W6800s stack up against the Ultra 76 in practical tests that stress the GPUs. I think the Intel Mac Pro will retain decent value at least over the next 1-2 years. The 7.1 will be the new 5.1 to some extent, as it increasingly becomes a dead end and studios are willing to let go of it on the used market.
Anyway, at least the bandaid has been ripped off. Over the last few months we've listened to many vocal critics considering this and that. But trying to remeber all the different user names now, I think maybe 2 or 3 comes to mind that are actually using pretty loaded 7.1s. A lot of the noise has been from the old 5.1 camp. At least now, they can finally let go—and build that sweet PC.
Exactly. Apple has historically served customers their technology direction can cater to.
Apple's reentry into gaming is just incidental as it happened to overlap.
Those wanting to game on a Mac are better served to not buy a Mac until this year or the next when the game devs start porting.
Apple is not that interested with the modularized world of PC desktops. They cannot leverage their supply chain, tech and business process.
That business is dying or isn't as profitable as what is Apple doing now.
The PC market as a whole has approx 80% of users on laptops. Laptops with the highest performance per watt are those from Apple. Qualcomm scooped up ex-Apple engineers that formed NUVIA to make ARM laptops that is likely to run Windows 11.
Windows 11 on ARM laptops that are as modularized as Mac laptops will eat into the business of Intel/AMD/Nvidia/etc. Excluding crypto users how big is the dGPU market?
To cut it short the Mac Pro M2 Ultra is like that because Apple identified 80% or more of that user's key concerns and addressed them. They are willing to no service niche use case if it means a better net.
Correct... people approaching retirement or are on a fixed income are not Apple's business. They want users who keep buying on a 3 year schedule. An upgradeable Mac Pro can allow end users to keep using their Macs past a decade.
Expect Apple to issue the final Intel macOS Software Update as late as 2028 and the final Security Update as late as 2030.
I still don't think it's wise to buy a Mac for gaming.
Apple has this incredible ability of pushing the metaphorical "gaming boulder" 80% of the way up the hill each year and then letting it roll all the way down again.
We still haven't seen No Man's Sky that was promised at last year's WWDC.
mode11
macrumors 68000
If the 8,1 was just going to be an Ultra + slots, it's puzzling why it didn't get released last year. Perhaps:
- They had enough on their plate, and the MP is a slow seller.
- They were intending to release both M2 Ultra and Extreme models, and when the latter hit problems, just went with the former. The Ultra would have been the 'entry level' model, which is why people are scratching their heads wondering what the MP really offers over the Studio.
- Apple's telemetry showed a typical 2019 MP has 192GB RAM. The M1 couldn't match that, and regardless of the difference between regular and unified RAM, forcing people to 'downgrade' would be an awkward sell.
- The M1 Ultra didn't have enough PCIe lanes to make it viable.
It will be interesting to see a PCIe block diagram for the 8,1. The Ultra + slots option had been discounted by most, on the assumption that it wouldn't have sufficient PCIe lanes. Apple made no comment about the 8,1's I/O bandwidth, so it's probably nothing to write home about; the PLX switch is likely doing much of the heavy lifting.
Now that PCIe GPUs are out of the question, though, a significant selling point of the MP over the Studio has evaporated. Many people will just go with the latter, leaving the MP as even more of a niche machine. Still, as it heavily reuses Studio components, and has a large mark up, it will likely do OK.
The difference will be that macOS is quickly dropping Intel (check out Sonoma's supported hardware), and the price of 7,1's is unlikely to fall fast enough to make them worth investing in. The money would be much better spent on an M2 Studio (or a PC, depending).
- They had enough on their plate, and the MP is a slow seller.
- They were intending to release both M2 Ultra and Extreme models, and when the latter hit problems, just went with the former. The Ultra would have been the 'entry level' model, which is why people are scratching their heads wondering what the MP really offers over the Studio.
- Apple's telemetry showed a typical 2019 MP has 192GB RAM. The M1 couldn't match that, and regardless of the difference between regular and unified RAM, forcing people to 'downgrade' would be an awkward sell.
- The M1 Ultra didn't have enough PCIe lanes to make it viable.
It will be interesting to see a PCIe block diagram for the 8,1. The Ultra + slots option had been discounted by most, on the assumption that it wouldn't have sufficient PCIe lanes. Apple made no comment about the 8,1's I/O bandwidth, so it's probably nothing to write home about; the PLX switch is likely doing much of the heavy lifting.
Now that PCIe GPUs are out of the question, though, a significant selling point of the MP over the Studio has evaporated. Many people will just go with the latter, leaving the MP as even more of a niche machine. Still, as it heavily reuses Studio components, and has a large mark up, it will likely do OK.
The difference will be that macOS is quickly dropping Intel (check out Sonoma's supported hardware), and the price of 7,1's is unlikely to fall fast enough to make them worth investing in. The money would be much better spent on an M2 Studio (or a PC, depending).
I forgot what it is called but Apple just released a tool to make porting other platform games easier to Metal?
For a quarter century I've always waited for triple-A titles to 1st come out, 1st price cut or 1st die shrink before buying into the next gen gaming console.
I carry over this mindset when people are talking about Mac gaming. Wait for the game you want to play before buying onto any new platform. You do not suffer the hazards of being on the bleeding edge.
mode11
macrumors 68000
Or just get a PC and wait for Steam sales.
That is often my counterpoint to Mac gaming.
Buy a PC today to play games on the best gaming device on the market.
mode11
macrumors 68000
Another benefit of the PC is that games are still accessible as you upgrade over the years. With consoles, you need to keep them around (or eventually, emulate them) to be order to play older games. Plus all the churn of new controllers etc. I was only tepidly into the PS4, and haven't bought a PS5, as I'm done with all of that.
ZombiePhysicist
Suspended
Apple killed older games repeatedly. macOS classic games need emulation. Maos 32bit games are dead.
That said I like my steamdeck and it shares many of your stated virtues. Also the new goggles will be very interesting for games. My ps5 and Xbox sit largely unused as I’m really going back to town with the new Zelda on switch. 2nd game I’m playing on switch since I got it (first being Zelda as well).
Although I still play 1991 Civilization for DOS far too often to be considered healthy I have to acknowledge that retro gaming is very very niche.
Almost as niche as Mac Pro users.
The nice thing with AMD-based game consoles is that they're natively backward compatible with predecssors that used the same chip family.
mode11
macrumors 68000
The Steamdeck looks cool. I could see myself getting one of those at some point.
The googles look cool too, though way outside my price range. Whenever I've used VR it's felt pretty awesome, but then I'm happy to take the headset off after half an hour and kind of forget about it (I've only ever tried them at work). It's still unclear to me how the AR / VR thing works. It appears to make the front of the set go opaque black, likely with an LCD shutter, but this wouldn't help with overlaying graphics over a lit environment. I expect the OLED screens get quite bright, which would help, but my only experience with AR has been the HoloLens, which was a bit crap.