23 Runs(179 miles) w/AW2:Some observations.

[deeddawg]

PR = Personal Record. a/k/a your fastest time for a particular race distance. Generally used for bragging rights outside of those who are truly competitive runners that stand to win real money at various races. However, that latter class of runner is a lot faster than I ever was, and is still a fair bit faster than exxxviii even if that individual is female. Want feel humbled? Check out the winning times for the Peachtree Road Race 10K.

Outside of prize money and bragging rights, a race time result can lead to being placed in a "better" starting corral for a future race. For the same Peachtree Road Race 10K above, this past year runners had to have a below 39:10 (m:s) 10K time to be in the "seeded" corral immediately behind the elite invited runners, and a 39:11 to 45:23 time to be in the next corral (A). The advantage of a "better" corral is fewer runners you need to dodge before the course starts to spread out, allowing you to run a slightly shorter distance, and thereby post a better time by a few seconds. Here's an illustrative article on tangents: http://www.runladylike.com/2014/09/24/running-the-tangents/

Race times can also be a qualifier to even get into some high-demand races, the Boston Marathon is one such race.

 

[BlueMoon63]

What is PR?

I don't know enough about running to know which side is right, but this is a very interesting discussion! Needless to say, for a total novice like myself, distance accuracy is the least of my concerns, but it's fascinating to read what advanced runners care about.

Personal record... the lower, the better. I'm with you on not needing to be accurate to any great detail. Especially since I run indoors more often than outdoors.

If you are getting paid to shave 40 seconds off your personal best, I would want to know a lot more details than the Apple Watch. Also, OCD with serious runners is a good thing. Evil explained it best.

The Apple Watch has been great for me and I don't need to have multiple devices and one that only looks good for exercising.

 

[Julien]

What is PR?...

PR=PB.

 

[Night Spring]

Here's an illustrative article on tangents: http://www.runladylike.com/2014/09/24/running-the-tangents/

This is fascinating, but how often are people so near the cutoff line for, say, the BQ time, that saving time in this way matters?

I mean, I assume elite runners have personal record times way above the BQ, and then there are people who have no hopes of making the BQ. I think the article mentioned somewhere about training for a distance longer than the race you are running. Wouldn't that be standard practice for anything? Well, maybe not for extreme short distances, but for anything over, say, 1k, wouldn't it be a good idea to practice for a slightly longer distance?

 

[Long Run Nick]

Do you happen to run counter-clockwise? If your AW is always on your right wrist and always measures your distance as just a hair longer than your Garmin, maybe it's just because that arm traveled a little bit further than your left arm?

Switched wrists today. Similar results. Actually, it made it easier to hear the audio prompts from the AW2 Nike app. I have better hearing in my left ear than my right. Stood too close to some 105 and 155 mm howitzers back in my old Army days.
Thanks for the suggestion. Nick
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This is fascinating, but how often are people so near the cutoff line for, say, the BQ time, that saving time in this way matters?

I mean, I assume elite runners have personal record times way above the BQ, and then there are people who have no hopes of making the BQ. I think the article mentioned somewhere about training for a distance longer than the race you are running. Wouldn't that be standard practice for anything? Well, maybe not for extreme short distances, but for anything over, say, 1k, wouldn't it be a good idea to practice for a slightly longer distance?

I am enjoying this discussion. I realize there are often as many training plans for races as there are runners. My experience with training to run marathons is an old formula that stated if your average runs for the prior 2-3 months before a marathon average around 9 miles you should be well trained to run and finish a marathon. Now, a bunch of other stuff enters in. Weather, the course, how you feel that day, if you have been prudent with your pacing, etc. I have always coached that the 20 mile mark in a marathon is 1/2 way to the finish. This thought process has been a guide to inexperienced marathoners to not get out too fast and be able to finish strong. I love counting the number of runners I pass over the last 5-6 miles of a marathon, most of whom went out too fast and were paying the price by running at a zombie like death march pace.
I have also found training folks to keep moving Run/walk for 3-4 hours on long training runs helps the mind and the body. Years ago- 20-30 years, the goal for average runners was to finish under 4 hours. Now folks finish in 5-6 hours, which is fine, but if that is the goal- I often suggest adding a lot of walking to longer runs.
Sorry I got side tracked.
I have always loved to help folks new to running and new to the idea of marathon running and went off on a tangent.Nick

 

[deeddawg]

This is fascinating, but how often are people so near the cutoff line for, say, the BQ time, that saving time in this way matters?

I've never done (or seen) an analysis of that, but I'm sure there are always some who've "just" missed a qualifying time for something. It's definitely happened with Olympic Team trials.

My personal thinking is that in races there are so many variables impacting your performance, including the distance you actually cover, that a slight variance in watch distance precision and accuracy is immaterial for us mere mortals.

I think the article mentioned somewhere about training for a distance longer than the race you are running.

Yes and no. Training methods vary, and new ones get tried by different coaches, but generally speaking you do train with a specific distance in mind. There are different aspects to that, and how you approach it depends on the race distance. Let's talk 10Ks. A fairly typical 10K training regimen will have one or two "speed" days during the week where you may be running a faster pace than you would for a 10K, but also for a shorter distance. One day you'd do long distance, of maybe 9 or 11 or 14 miles -- but at a substantially slower pace than you're aiming for in your 10K. Other days you'd do shorter easier runs, etc. Lots of different methods and philosophies; some based on specific pace ranges, some more freeform and based on perceived effort, others based on heart rate / zones as indicators of effort.

For some fairly easy to understand examples have a look at Hal Higdon 10K Novice and Hal Higdon 10K Intermediate -- in the latter the weekend long runs go well past the 6.2 mile 10K distance, but at a slower pace. Also observe how they're set up into multi-day blocks, with training building upon the prior day pushing you further before then taking a rest day and cross training. Some plans will also exhibit a two or three layer stair-step of increasing training load spanning 2-3 weeks before a "step back" week of lower intensity training that then builds to a higher crescendo than the prior, repeating higher and higher over the course of the training season.

 

[Night Spring]

A fairly typical 10K training regimen will have one or two "speed" days during the week where you may be running a faster pace than you would for a 10K, but also for a shorter distance. One day you'd do long distance, of maybe 9 or 11 or 14 miles -- but at a substantially slower pace than you're aiming for in your 10K.

Right. Well, I'm assuming whatever your goal for a particular training run is, you don't want your distance to be too much off. Like, if your goal for the day is to run 10k, then you don't want to run 11k or 9k. But if you are off by half that much, so you run 10.5k or 9.5k, then would that matter? I mean, where would be the point where inaccurate distance from a watch would have too much impact on your training?

 

[deeddawg]

I'm assuming whatever your goal for a particular training run is, you don't want your distance to be too much off.

No, specificity to that degree in training run distances doesn’t matter. Not in any training plan or methodology I’ve seen. McMillan does tend towards pace-range focused runs as I recall, but the ranges are wide enough that it wouldn’t make a difference.

In training plans such as the Higdon examples, you'll note that the "higher level" plans have substantially more mileage and add speed work (intervals) than the novice plans. The reason to limit the distances is to avoid injury when a person's body isn't ready for it.

The variance being discussed here is on the order of 1-2%. If you look at a gps track from an Apple Watch or a Garmin 235 both (with some hiccups) show you which side of the street you ran on. We’re splitting hairs.

Remember, GPS running watches are a VERY recent phenomenon in terms of running history. Go back to the Peachtree 10K race results for the past 47 years. Until the most recent times, all those men and women trained with a stopwatch and frequently trained by *time* spent running. Or they ran a road route someone had driven with a car to get an approximate distance (and consider the typical odometer "accuracy" twenty or thirty years ago. If they needed real distance specificity for intervals, they'd use a track -- just as we still do today.

 

[Long Run Nick]

No, specificity to that degree in training run distances doesn’t matter. Not in any training plan or methodology I’ve seen. McMillan does tend towards pace-range focused runs as I recall, but the ranges are wide enough that it wouldn’t make a difference.

In training plans such as the Higdon examples, you'll note that the "higher level" plans have substantially more mileage and add speed work (intervals) than the novice plans. The reason to limit the distances is to avoid injury when a person's body isn't ready for it.

The variance being discussed here is on the order of 1-2%. If you look at a gps track from an Apple Watch or a Garmin 235 both (with some hiccups) show you which side of the street you ran on. We’re splitting hairs.

Remember, GPS running watches are a VERY recent phenomenon in terms of running history. Go back to the Peachtree 10K race results for the past 47 years. Until the most recent times, all those men and women trained with a stopwatch and frequently trained by *time* spent running. Or they ran a road route someone had driven with a car to get an approximate distance (and consider the typical odometer "accuracy" twenty or thirty years ago. If they needed real distance specificity for intervals, they'd use a track -- just as we still do today.

Hey deeddawg, I ran the Peachtree back in 1977 and a heck of a lot of other races for years w/o all the current tech stuff. I aggravated somebody on here when I mentioned it is interesting to me with all this stuff our running times for average neighborhood runners has slowed. I remember running
10 K races in my early 40's and finish with a 36-37 minute time and not even place in my 40-44 age group. Not in real big races but say300-500 participants. 6 hour marathons were pretty much unheard of. I still smile when folks get riled up about current pace not being accurate. I never did much track work, but when I was serious I would head there and with a simple stop watch got things figured out. Cadence/ VO2 Max, maxHR, who knew? Nick

 

[Julien]

...Go back to the Peachtree 10K race results for the past 47 years.....

Peachtree

 

[deeddawg]

Peachtree

Looks like someone was in time-group A.

 

[Julien]

Looks like someone was in time-group A.

Next year (already have my qualifying time too) will be lucky 13 in time group A (and A1??? before the change) since moving to ATL. Since they tightened the time standard a couple of years ago it is a little harder for me to make.

 

[deeddawg]

Next year (already have my qualifying time too) will be lucky 13 of A (and A1??? before the change) since moving to ATL.

Nice. In my eleven years I've been in A a few times, and not in A a few times, depending on how dedicated I've been to it. I remember rushing out on that Saturday in March to pick up the early edition of the sunday paper to get the entry form filled out and in the mail before the post office closed. Much easier these days to simply maintain an ATC membership.
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I still smile when folks get riled up about current pace not being accurate. I never did much track work, but when I was serious I would head there and with a simple stop watch got things figured out. Cadence/ VO2 Max, maxHR, who knew? Nick

Yes, and even worse when people form a mental "dependency" on the tech gadgets such that they feel they can't do something as simple as "go for a run" without strapping on a drawerful of gadgetry.

 

[Julien]

This year's mediocre time. In 12 Peachtree's I have only had one that was a Time Group A qualifying time. Too crowded to get a good time.

A little slow stopping my Watch.

 

[deeddawg]

Excellent results. I agree, the Peachtree is by NO means a race you do for time. It's about having a six mile long cheering section, the breakfast beers thanks to Michelob, and of course the t-shirt.

I do miss the US10K. Now that was a fun, challenging race. Only the first 1000 finishers got medals.

BTW, if you haven't yet tried the Brasstown Bald Buster 5K, put it on your to-do list. "a lil' ole 5K with just one hill..." Info: http://brasstownbaldbuster5k.itsyourrace.com/event.aspx?id=6453

 

[Night Spring]

"a lil' ole 5K with just one hill..."

That sounds ominous. Is that like the Everest is just a mountain?

 

[deeddawg]

That sounds ominous. Is that like the Everest is just a mountain?

Yeah, something along those lines...

Brasstown Bald is the highest point in Georgia at 4,783 feet. This 5K follows the road to the summit, starting at the bottom and the finish line at the top. Starting line elevation is 3,000 ft.

So yeah, "just one hill"... it's a real "bald buster"...

 

[Night Spring]

Yeah, something along those lines...

Brasstown Bald is the highest point in Georgia at 4,783 feet. This 5K follows the road to the summit, starting at the bottom and the finish line at the top. Starting line elevation is 3,000 ft.

So yeah, "just one hill"... it's a real "bald buster"...

Wait, so it's uphill all the way, no downhill or flat portions at all? That's worse than what I imagined!

 

[deeddawg]

There's maybe 50 yards of flat as you go by the visitor center parking lot / ticket booth 2/3 of the way up, then a few yards of flat right at the top. Otherwise it's all one hill.

Go big or go home.

 

[Julien]

There's maybe 50 yards of flat as you go by the visitor center parking lot / ticket booth 2/3 of the way up, then a few yards of flat right at the top. Otherwise it's all one hill.

Go big or go home.

600' of elevation gain per mile. I guess instead of earning a Peachtree time group A qualifying time it would be closer to a time group S qualifying time. I usually use the Vinings' 5K which has a net downhill of over 200' to get my Peachtree qualifying time.

 

[Fthree]

I have a treadmill and wonder how accurate the readings on the AW2 have been for anyone that has tried it on one?

 

[Julien]

I have a treadmill and wonder how accurate the readings on the AW2 have been for anyone that has tried it on one?

First you need to calibrate it. It then depends on your personal running nuances. I run with a shorter stride and a faster cadence on a treadmill. Many find their style different since it is a fundamentally different experience than running on the ground. In other words you will need to determine for yourself.

 

[Fthree]

First you need to calibrate it. It then depends on your personal running nuances. I run with a shorter stride and a faster cadence on a treadmill. Many find their style different since it is a fundamentally different experience than running on the ground. In other words you will need to determine for yourself.

thanks, i have been using my garmin forerunner with a footpad prior to purchasing the AW2.

 

[Long Run Nick]

I promise I will try to have this my last post about comparing my Garmin 235 and the AW2. Ran 9.27 per Garmin. AW2 9.41. Big difference in pace per mile 12 seconds. Also notice the Nike app would show some HR readings when I have it turned off on the AW2 and the Nike app. Strange. Any thoughts?
I have the wrist HR on with my Garmin. After the run both show the same HR.

 

[wx4olf]

Yeah, something along those lines...

Brasstown Bald is the highest point in Georgia at 4,783 feet. This 5K follows the road to the summit, starting at the bottom and the finish line at the top. Starting line elevation is 3,000 ft.

So yeah, "just one hill"... it's a real "bald buster"...

Aren't there sections with 18-20% grade? I remember going up there to watch the Tour of Georgia and even the pros were having a hard time getting their bikes up it!

Speaking of Peachtree - I will be going for my A group qualifying time at the T-day half in a couple of weeks. After Saturday's tempo run I'm feeling pretty good about getting it done.