27" 4K monitor, scaled = uncanny valley?

[motrek]

I've replaced my older 27" iMac (5K) with a MacBook Pro + a Dell 4K monitor.

The Dell monitor is better than I expected it would be, and as soon as I set it up, I could basically just forget that I wasn't using my iMac.

But, after using the monitor for a while, I feel like I'm developing some eyestrain because I can't quite focus on the text.

With "low DPI" resolutions (e.g., a native 1440p panel), everything looks pixelly and bad, but at least I can focus my eyes on the individual pixels.

With the 5K iMac monitor, everything looked super-sharp and in-focus all the time.

I'm starting to feel like 4K is an "uncanny valley" resolution where the pixels are too small to really be noticeable, but everything looks just blurry and out-of-focus enough to annoy a person.

Does anybody else feel this way, or am I basically just inventing problems for myself?

 

[theorist9]

I have a 27" Retina iMac (218 ppi) running two external monitors, a 27" 4k (163 ppi) and a 24" HD (94 ppi), one one each side, so I can do a direct comparison. I personally don't notice the uncanny valley. I'd rank them HD << 4k < Retina.

Having said that, I think I understand what you're feeling. With the HD monitor, you don't look for sharpness, but with the 4k you do and can't quite find it.

Your title says "scaled". If you're not using Default for Display (which is 2:1 scaling = 1920 x 1280) then, yeah, it's going to look a bit blurry. If you use 2:1 you'll get a bigger UI than you're used to, but the screen (at least to me) will look noticeably sharper. You probably know this, but you get this by selecting Default for Display in System Preferences > Displays > Display Settings:

Plus I personally actually like the larger UI in the 27" 4k, since when I'm working rapidly I can click on buttons and scroll bars more quickly—and my programs don't take up much UI space anyways.

Though I should mention that, even with 2:1 scaling, 4k doesn't do it for me as my main monitor on Monterey. Until I got the Retina iMac, and was thus stuck with 4k as my main monitor, I stayed with High Sierra, which was the last MacOS with native subpixel text rendering, and thus the last OS on which text looked acceptably sharp (to me) with a 27" 4k. With any OS after that, I find I need a Retina monitor. Thus when I had to upgrade from High Sierra, I had to get the iMac.

And there's the rub with Apple's current OS's: They require a Retina monitor to look optimally sharp for text, yet Apple doesn't offer a single consumer-priced external monitor. So those that are doing what you're doing (pairing a laptop with a large external monitor, which is very common) are out of luck unless they spring for the $1600 Studio Display or find some other 5k alternative.

You could try picking up a used LG 27" 5k Ultrafine* (don't know if you're in the US and thus have Craig's List, but in my area there are several listed with asking prices starting about $600), but I'd heard they have both color banding and QC issues, so you should buy locally and bring your MBP with you to ensure there are not any quality issues, and that you are happy with its picture.

[*There's two generations, you'll probably want to get the newer one.]

 

[motrek]

...
You could try picking up a used LG 27" 5k Ultrafine* (don't know if you're in the US and thus have Craig's List, but in my area there are several listed with asking prices starting about $600), but I'd heard they have both color banding and QC issues, so you should buy locally and bring your MBP with you to ensure there are not any quality issues, and that you are happy with its picture.
...

I've been thinking about it but it seems like something is always wrong with those monitors. Even the ones that are supposedly in good condition (no cracked plastic cases, etc.) apparently suffer from image retention, which, I don't even understand how that's a thing with an LCD monitor.

It's super-annoying that nobody is selling 5K displays other than Apple (ridiculously overcomplicated and overpriced) and LG (poor quality).

 

[chikorita157]

I've replaced my older 27" iMac (5K) with a MacBook Pro + a Dell 4K monitor.

The Dell monitor is better than I expected it would be, and as soon as I set it up, I could basically just forget that I wasn't using my iMac.

But, after using the monitor for a while, I feel like I'm developing some eyestrain because I can't quite focus on the text.

With "low DPI" resolutions (e.g., a native 1440p panel), everything looks pixelly and bad, but at least I can focus my eyes on the individual pixels.

With the 5K iMac monitor, everything looked super-sharp and in-focus all the time.

I'm starting to feel like 4K is an "uncanny valley" resolution where the pixels are too small to really be noticeable, but everything looks just blurry and out-of-focus enough to annoy a person.

Does anybody else feel this way, or am I basically just inventing problems for myself?

No, you aren’t inventing problems as this is an issue. There are some Studio Display haters on Macrumors that say that the scaling issue is not a big deal without actually using a 5K display.

Most 4K displays aren’t actually really 4K, but 3840 × 2160, which is double of 1080p, which is why it scales to 1080p 2x by default. That is too big, especially at 27” and god forbid, 32 “. The UI look hilariously big, although it might be fine at 24”, but not 100% retina, but a bit closer. For 2K, it does the scaling in 5K and scales it down to 4K, which causes image quality issues and text not being as sharp.

I went to 5K for my main monitor on both my Macbook Pro M1 Pro and Mac Studio. I have both the Studio Display and the LG Ultrafine 5k. I do like the Studio Display better, but the Ultrafine 5K is alright, especially since I use the Mac Studio setup infrequently and remote into it most of the time. My Ultrafine 5K haven’t develop any issues yet and doesn’t have pink edges issue, probably from delamination. I notice that on my 9.8 2016 iPad Pro, which is several years old already. Both of these monitors are not cheap, but I plan to use it for at least 10 years hopefully. I run my monitors at 70% brightness, so it shouldn’t develop issues quickly. But yes, there really needs to be more monitors than just three (including that really expensive Pro XDR display) that work best for Mac. None of the 4K options work great, no matter what the Studio Display haters say. It’s how macOS scales and it only does integer scaling compared to non-integer on Windows, which comes with compatibility issues since the developer needs to implement high dpi support.

 

[theorist9]

No, you aren’t inventing problems as this is an issue. There are some Studio Display haters on Macrumors that say that the scaling issue is not a big deal without actually using a 5K display.

Most 4K displays aren’t actually really 4K, but 3840 × 2160, which is double of 1080p, which is why it scales to 1080p 2x by default. That is too big, especially at 27” and god forbid, 32 “. The UI look hilariously big, although it might be fine at 24”, but not 100% retina, but a bit closer. For 2K, it does the scaling in 5K and scales it down to 4K, which causes image quality issues and text not being as sharp.

I went to 5K for my main monitor on both my Macbook Pro M1 Pro and Mac Studio. I have both the Studio Display and the LG Ultrafine 5k. I do like the Studio Display better, but the Ultrafine 5K is alright, especially since I use the Mac Studio setup infrequently and remote into it most of the time. My Ultrafine 5K haven’t develop any issues yet and doesn’t have pink edges issue, probably from delamination. I notice that on my 9.8 2016 iPad Pro, which is several years old already. Both of these monitors are not cheap, but I plan to use it for at least 10 years hopefully. I run my monitors at 70% brightness, so it shouldn’t develop issues quickly. But yes, there really needs to be more monitors than just three (including that really expensive Pro XDR display) that work best for Mac. None of the 4K options work great, no matter what the Studio Display haters say. It’s how macOS scales and it only does integer scaling compared to non-integer on Windows, which comes with compatibility issues since the developer needs to implement high dpi support.

Agreed. Indeed, I just posted this, which I'd been meaning to get around to for a while:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/opinion-apple-should-offer-consumer-price-retina-external-monitors.2354451/

 

[motrek]

No, you aren’t inventing problems as this is an issue. There are some Studio Display haters on Macrumors that say that the scaling issue is not a big deal without actually using a 5K display. ...

Thanks for the reply. After using the display for several more days, I'm getting to be more and more comfortable with it.

I think the problem is that I did have some initial eyestrain from the unusual display at first, then I started to get stressed out about it and I kept trying to look harder and harder at the monitor to see if I could spot any scaling artifacts or whatever, and that was making my eyes tired and the eyestrain worse and worse.

I'm trying to not worry about it and, now that I'm not trying to pixel-peep every 45 seconds, my eyestrain is basically gone and I'm pretty happy with the monitor. I would obviously prefer to have a 5K display, but, considering that I bougt this monitor used on Craigslist for $200, it's not really a contest.