Let them post!!!

[jotadeo]

(Mods: in order for this to reach its intended audience, I feel this thread belongs in the Buying Tips forum, but please feel free to move it if deemed inappropriate for this forum. Thanks!)

An open letter to all MR n00bs, members, contributors, super demi god president pope czars, etc.:

Please do not chastise others for starting threads asking for advice about whether it is better to wait or go ahead on pull the trigger on whatever product is being discussed. Any of the following reasons is reason enough to let it go...

* If you don't like a certain type of post, DON'T read it! You have the choice to click on a link or not.

* Not everyone is forum-savvy. You may know how to use forums, but many people are still struggling with general computer use (and I'm not even talking about our parents or our grandparents). Forums are a tool and people need to learn how to use this tool just like any other (I do like the posts that mention that the existing forums should be searched first while also providing an answer to the Q at hand (see Community below)).

* New perspectives - Many times people give new insights that were not discussed in previous threads. And these new insights might stem from...

* New info - In this ever-changing world of modern technology, new info or even RUMORED info comes into play on a daily basis. How often do MR members go back to a thread about whether to buy or not to post new info that would be pertinent to the discussion?

* Community - Hopefully, people who contribute to MR view this is as a community. And hopefully in the spirit of creating a great community, those who contribute do so to promote the open flow of ideas, to share their knowledge, and to encourage new growth of the community, which includes initiating others into the traditions and practices of the community.

So, I ask of you MR Community...Let them post! Let them post! Let them post! (recalling a scene from one of my childhood favs...think rag-tag little league baseball team in the Houston Astrodome).

Thanks for listening.
jdo

 

[johnee]

.... lots of stuff....
Thanks for listening.
jdo

You should pursue a career in the diplomatic services!

I think I see a nobel peace prize in your future

 

[someguy]

My only problem with the "Should I wait?" threads is that they all are generally the same.

If you need something now, buy now. If you can wait until <date of next Apple event>, then wait and see if anything is updated. It's really not a complicated concept.

 

[robPOD]

well said, If you need it buy it and if you dont, dont.

 

[Sun Baked]

You should pursue a career in the diplomatic services!

I think I see a nobel peace prize in your future

I don't think the peace prize is heavy enough to do any damage when you give it to someone with significant velocity, maybe a golden bible for all the preaching being done.

If they were savvy enough to post in the correct forum -- they can always look at a few pages of old topics or use the search function.

Usually, a new thread like "should I wait for Santa Rosa" is on a page with several similar threads.

 

[thedude110]

Very well said, jotadeo!

One of my MR pet peeves is when those who come here seeking help wind up receiving only dismissal or mockery. The strength of our community lies in each other, and, in a forum, we're only as good as what we say. It's rarely a bad idea to remind each of us to be helpful (at best) or civil (if we're decidedly helpless).

Cheers.

 

[synth3tik]

Ev ery one knows or should know of the forum riles. If you never read them, start a tread then get a finger pointing at you, it should help remind people that there are rule to the forum.

 

[jotadeo]

Very well said, jotadeo!

One of my MR pet peeves is when those who come here seeking help wind up receiving only dismissal or mockery. The strength of our community lies in each other, and, in a forum, we're only as good as what we say. It's rarely a bad idea to remind each of us to be helpful (at best) or civil (if we're decidedly helpless).

Cheers.

Thanks, thedude! I agree...a bit of civility goes a long way.
jdo

 

[CrackedButter]

I'm one of the first to get on somebody's case if I see a repeat thread, especially when another thread which is the same, similar or also similar is also on the front page. Why can't the soon-to-be thread starter read that thread, contribute or just think for a minute and determine something for themselves.

Everybody thinks they are an exception so they must make their own thread because they think they have special needs. Its getting to a stage where people are writing in the thread titles reminding us of this just to give them a chance or that it is an actual repeat of a similar subject!

Yes there are rules to learn and sometimes we shouldn't be so hard, but is it also hard to simply look at the buyers guide or read a forum thread or do a search for one. We have a brain to think we, so why not use it and get informed, why constantly leave it up to us to always answer the same questions over and over again?

If I want to buy something I do research, I use a forum like this purely as a last resort or if I need something I know I couldn't find by googling for it.

Some threads have simply asked about technical specs on Apple machines and guess what? Those specs are on Apple's page.
Some threads are asking about Santa Rosa, why not go to Intel's website? Oh right, its easier to get us to do the work for you by asking a question rather than searching another website.

This is less about people who are new to computers or forums, its about people's ability to think for themselves, it seems some people lose their ability to think when they have a computer in-front of them. But in my experience computers make a lot of people turn stupid rather than the expected opposite desired effect.

So for most of these examples I've given, I will interfere with the threads if I find them useless because the same question has already been asked 10 times already.

But on the flip side, other people like helping others, and if they want to answer the same questions over and over again then fine. Just realise that coming into these forums for some people is like having deja vue, or however you spell it.

 

[johnee]

Thanks, thedude! I agree...a bit of civility goes a long way.
jdo

yeah, I saw a post recently where someone thought they were going to "get pounded" when they asked a question on an active thread, and their question had validity!

sometimes people pounce a little too hard too fast.

... lots of stuffffffffff

lighten up. simply ignore the posts. sometimes people are new to forums and it takes a while to figure out the nuts and bolts of a site. MR is a relatively active place, and for some people it's daunting.

 

[jotadeo]

Weird, I made several posts that originally posted but then disappeared (antispamming software???). Anyway, here it goes again...

My only problem with the "Should I wait?" threads is that they all are generally the same.

Yes, but that is why I like it when members give the uninitiated some help on the protocol for using the forums and then give them an answer to their Q.

If you need something now, buy now. If you can wait until <date of next Apple event>, then wait and see if anything is updated. It's really not a complicated concept.

I'm not sure that I agree that it is not so complicated. It's easiER if you need something - typically the thought process should be, if you need it, then buy it. If you have some flexibility in when you can buy, then is it better to wait for Santa Rosa, for instance, or is it not such a big deal (e.g. it's better to buy now and enjoy the Mac experience and sell next year (since Macs hold their value well) when Penryn comes out)?

In any case, this thread is not for discussing particulars about buying or not buying, but rather for discussing the appropriateness of comments from members on inexperienced users inquiries about whether to buy or to wait.
jdo

 

[WildCowboy]

Weird, I made several posts that originally posted but then disappeared (antispamming software???).

Sorry about that. You made three posts in a row that I merged into a single post. It looks like another mod was trying to do the same thing at the same time and a glitch resulted in your posts disappearing entirely.

Please use the multi-quote feature when responding to several posts at the same time.

 

[Allotriophagy]

Problem 1 = Small number of active forum users.

Problem 2 = High volume of passing traffic.

All compounded by issues like some people who are under the impression that these forums are "theirs", that the vast majority of passing traffic doesn't know the best way to find things (Spy/New Threads/Search).

And if anyone has tried searching for something on MR lately and not had to sift through bloody reams of crap, then I applaud you on being the second person who searched for that very specific thread about the PowerBook 3400c spring legs which had only three posts.

ANALOGY TIME

MR is a house with a giant window. Some people will come into the house and sit in the living room, reading the Radio Times to see what is on the television. Other people will walk by the house, see in through the giant window and scream "WHAT IS ON THE TELEVISION?" even though they could easily just walk into the house and see for themselves in the Radio Times.

Also, it is like a car with a different engine from out of state but with two wheels and running on corn syrup.

 

[jotadeo]

Ev ery one knows or should know of the forum riles. If you never read them, start a tread then get a finger pointing at you, it should help remind people that there are rule to the forum.

Again, this is why I prefer it when members give new users a heads-up as to the proper use of the forums but also give them an answer to their question. "Should know" and knowing are two different things.
jdo

Sorry about that. You made three posts in a row that I merged into a single post. It looks like another mod was trying to do the same thing at the same time and a glitch resulted in your posts disappearing entirely.

Please use the multi-quote feature when responding to several posts at the same time.

Thanks, super demi god president pope czar ...I am still a newbie myself at using the forums (working my way up to member with this thread, though ). I'll try to do better next time.
jdo

 

[kitki83]

I want to say these repeated post is more a cultural/society way many are being raised of gimme gimme and gimme. Nobody thinks on researching the situation its more like "HEY YOU I NEED SOMETHING TELL ME WHAT I WANT!"
(Quoting my boss as example). I read this somewhere on article or web article on US culture, how people expect things to be handed to them instead of researching.



My two cents.
RM

 

[jotadeo]

You should pursue a career in the diplomatic services!

I think I see a nobel peace prize in your future

No, no nobel prize for me. I'm just trying to make my MR experience more enjoyable (as if that were possible ) with a little less grumbling going around.

Why can't the soon-to-be thread starter read that thread, contribute or just think for a minute and determine something for themselves.

Yes there are rules to learn and sometimes we shouldn't be so hard, but is it also hard to simply look at the buyers guide or read a forum thread or do a search for one. We have a brain to think we, so why not use it and get informed, why constantly leave it up to us to always answer the same questions over and over again?

Some threads have simply asked about technical specs on Apple machines and guess what? Those specs are on Apple's page.
Some threads are asking about Santa Rosa, why not go to Intel's website? Oh right, its easier to get us to do the work for you by asking a question rather than searching another website.

This is less about people who are new to computers or forums, its about people's ability to think for themselves, it seems some people lose their ability to think when they have a computer in-front of them. But in my experience computers make a lot of people turn stupid rather than the expected opposite desired effect.

I think you're expecting people to know what they're doing, and many times they don't (many times I don't (cf. the multi-quote snafu I had in this very thread)). It's true that many people are looking for the quick answer without doing the work, but many others simply don't know how to do it. Of course, that doesn't mean anyone here should be responsible for holding their hand to help them figure out how to buy something online. But most of these posts (at least the ones I'm talking about) are simply asking for advice. It's up to the members to decide whether they want to bother with that or not (as CrackedButter mentions in the next quote).

But on the flip side, other people like helping others, and if they want to answer the same questions over and over again then fine.

One solution that has been tossed around here and there is a separate section for pros and another for non-pros (or some such division), but I think that would ruin the sense of community.

Another possible solution that comes to mind is when someone with newbie status or someone that has started 3 or fewer threads, for instance, goes to start a thread, some sort of *quick* pop-up thingy that gives a brief rundown of the most important rules/suggestions that need to be/should be followed. Emphasis on brief and done in such a way that it (most likely) will not be ignored. Perhaps a quick pop-up saying, "Before you post: Have you checked the forums for similar threads" or something to that effect.

However, I still believe that it is important to let people start these threads for the reasons I stated at the beginning of this thread. As someone who sat on the fence for some time (and still is in some manner) before deciding to go Pro (MBP, that is), I appreciate much of the info that is presented there...even some of the oft hashed out arguments since my mindset a given time or another could be different from the last time such a thread popped up. Yes, it's been tedious to get through a lot of that repeat info, but I have been interested in the topic, so I choose to read it and I have to say that I'm really honing my skimming and scanning skills.

Well, I'll keep my verbosity to a minimum here. More later, if need be...
jdo

p.s. Look ma, I multi-quoted!!!

 

[jotadeo]

I want to say these repeated post is more a cultural/society way many are being raised of gimme gimme and gimme. Nobody thinks on researching the situation its more like "HEY YOU I NEED SOMETHING TELL ME WHAT I WANT!"
(Quoting my boss as example). I read this somewhere on article or web article on US culture, how people expect things to be handed to them instead of researching.

My two cents.
RM

I agree. But again, in the posts that I am referring to, people are asking for advice. You may say that many times they are asking about specs and all that and that they can just go look those specs up themselves. However, many (most???) people do not know how to interpret these specs and what new technologies (such as Santa Rosa) bring to the table. So, what do they do then? Well, ask people who know. Who knows? For info on Macs, I'd say MR is a pretty good place to go.

Not every post is a good post or an acceptable post, but if someone is looking for advice from experts or at least experienced users, I think that is a very valid reason to post here.
jdo

 

[CrackedButter]

lighten up. simply ignore the posts. sometimes people are new to forums and it takes a while to figure out the nuts and bolts of a site. MR is a relatively active place, and for some people it's daunting.

My post = I should lighten up? You speak to me as if the internet or this forum enrages me or something.

I agree. But again, in the posts that I am referring to, people are asking for advice. You may say that many times they are asking about specs and all that and that they can just go look those specs up themselves. However, many (most???) people do not know how to interpret these specs and what new technologies (such as Santa Rosa) bring to the table. So, what do they do then? Well, ask people who know. Who knows? For info on Macs, I'd say MR is a pretty good place to go.

Not every post is a good post or an acceptable post, but if someone is looking for advice from experts or at least experienced users, I think that is a very valid reason to post here.
jdo

You're generalising far too much. I've seen loads of threads asking for the simplest of things which could have been resolved by going to the page on Apple's website say and read. The thing is, in some instance, these people cannot be bothered to find out, its not because they don't understand the technology, especially if its something specific like the screen resolution of a machine.

If they are asking about something like that, then its a safe bet they know what it is and Apple post that information clearly next to the machines in question.

 

[jonharris200]

i agree with you jotadeo, newbies should be cut more slack.

it's pretty soul-destroying when you've jumped through the hoops for the very first time to sign up, then posted your very first post, to be absolutely slaughtered in comments.

do as you would be done by, i say too.

and by the way, i've been here for over a year and have only just discovered the multi-thread function myself.

 

[jotadeo]

You're generalising far too much. I've seen loads of threads asking for the simplest of things which could have been resolved by going to the page on Apple's website say and read. The thing is, in some instance, these people cannot be bothered to find out, its not because they don't understand the technology, especially if its something specific like the screen resolution of a machine.

If they are asking about something like that, then its a safe bet they know what it is and Apple post that information clearly next to the machines in question.

Yeah, I'm generalizing (U.S. ) a bit and I agree that in quite a few of these instances people are just being lazy. But the option of ignoring those threads/posts is still there. I suppose a good tongue lashing will keep people from abusing MR as an easy resource, though I think that those lashing should be doled out carefully. IMO, the gentle reminders of proper protocol before giving an appropriate answer to their Q should be the default response.

I disagree that asking about something like screen resolution means that the person knows what they're talking about. It's very easy to find technical info such as ppi, etc., and someone can talk about it, but that doesn't mean that they know what they're talking about. Again, many people can get the specs but not know how to interpret them. I include myself in this group for many things Mac/computer related.
jdo

 

[srf4real]

This is the only forum I ever joined, and my experience has been delightful. I've asked some stupid questions without enough detail for a decent response, made comments that may have unintentionally been taken as offensive. Mispelled common words, begun threads that already existed in the past, hell I've even posted a picture of my toilet seat (it's pretty cool) and started a disaster of a thread...

The mods and old timers have always been courteous and patient in correcting me gently, or edititing my posts without screaming. Now that I'm over 1,000 posts I have learned quite a lot about proper forum etiquitte with MR to thank, not to mention the wealth of knowledge I have attained from the membership. I did contribute, as I can appreciate the amount of work that is required to keep this forum tidy.

Thanks for being patient with me.

 

[Sun Baked]

Yeah, I'm generalizing (U.S. ) a bit and I agree that in quite a few of these instances people are just being lazy. But the option of ignoring those threads/posts is still there. I suppose a good tongue lashing will keep people from abusing MR as an easy resource, though I think that those lashing should be doled out carefully. IMO, the gentle reminders of proper protocol before giving an appropriate answer to their Q should be the default response.

jdo

In reality, the forum doesn't really have a heavy handed newbie bashing member that wields a big stick, and beats stupid newbies into hamburger like some forums do.

Basically if you know enough to find the proper forum, read some of the titles before you post, many times the really repetitive threads are only one of 6 or 7 on the same page.

 

[jotadeo]

In reality, the forum doesn't really have a heavy handed newbie bashing member that wields a big stick, and beats stupid newbies into hamburger like some forums do.

Basically if you know enough to find the proper forum, read some of the titles before you post, many times the really repetitive threads are only one of 6 or 7 on the same page.

You're right. Nobody's been too harsh with us n00bs. I suppose it's just that as much as those who are tired of reading more or less the same thread over and over again, I've gotten weary of hearing that the same thread has been posted elsewhere. Could be because I'm more on the new user side of things...catch up with me in 5 months or so when I'm a jaded 6502 and Leopard's due in about a month. I can hear it now: "Should I buy now or should I wait? Will Apple let me upgrade for free if I buy now?" God, those people are so annoying, WTF!!! (See it's starting already )

Thanks for the personal anecdote, srf4real. It helps put things in perspective.
jdo

 

[CrackedButter]

Yeah, I'm generalizing (U.S. ) a bit and I agree that in quite a few of these instances people are just being lazy. But the option of ignoring those threads/posts is still there. I suppose a good tongue lashing will keep people from abusing MR as an easy resource, though I think that those lashing should be doled out carefully. IMO, the gentle reminders of proper protocol before giving an appropriate answer to their Q should be the default response.

I disagree that asking about something like screen resolution means that the person knows what they're talking about. It's very easy to find technical info such as ppi, etc., and someone can talk about it, but that doesn't mean that they know what they're talking about. Again, many people can get the specs but not know how to interpret them. I include myself in this group for many things Mac/computer related.
jdo

I don't think you understand how lame it is. A user simple wants to know what the screen resolution is... thats it. I've seen those threads and like I said, the information is on Apples' website. Its got nothing to do with interpreting them either.

 

[jotadeo]

I don't think you understand how lame it is. A user simple wants to know what the screen resolution is... thats it. I've seen those threads and like I said, the information is on Apples' website. Its got nothing to do with interpreting them either.

Well, I'm sure that there are many specific instances in which folks is just being lazy and want the quick answer without doing any of the work. As I said before, those are the ones who perhaps merit a good talking to. Otherwise, a friendly, constructive and instructional statement about the appropriate approach to getting info from the forums is a good way to go, IMO.

A couple of things to note (one self-reflective and the other about the creation of new threads):

1. I've mentioned this already, but perhaps I haven't been around long enough to get peeved by the repeated threads AND since I am interested in what people have to say about buying or waiting, I accept these posts as valid. But hopefully as I rise through the ranks of the MR army (fightin' the good fight), I won't become jaded and grumpy. It'd be much better to keep a discerning eye and do as I said above. I also think that since I'm still such a n00b here, I haven't seen the differences in the threads asking for advice ("Please help, I really need your advice" vs. "I'm lazy, give me the answer now"). I'll try to make the distinction as I encounter these types of threads.

2. As far as I can tell, the info on how to post and start threads and all that is buried deep in the guides. If someone wants to start a new thread, they merely go to the forums, pick one, and then click the "New Thread" button above the list and start typing away. I suggested earlier that there could be some sort of reminder window/screen for noobie new thread starters that asks them if they've already gone through a search of the forums to try and find the answer to their Q ("STOP! Have you searched the forums for the info that you're looking for, [then in smaller text] These forums provide a wealth of information. Please look through them first BEFORE starting a new thread. It's the right thing to do! ). It should be a window/screen that is obvious and cannot be avoided before moving on to create the thread. In any case, it seems that part of the problem with the issue at hand is that the info regarding rules and etiquette is not readily available to the uninitiated (or the lazy ).

Overall, I'd just like to see a strong community that welcomes new members warmly and helps them feel accepting while also instructing them on the ways of this (new) world. Holy crap, I'm a hippie (but I guess I've known that all along)!!
jdo