5.1 - PCI M.2 SSD: Trim Enabled or Internal but not both?

Discussion in 'Mac Pro' started by harlansmart, Mar 6, 2018.

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  1. harlansmart, Mar 6, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018

    harlansmart macrumors newbie

    harlansmart

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2016
    Location:
    Nouvelle Zélande
    #1
    My issue is certainly caused by lack of knowledge & experience, it is this:

    Right now, on 2 x Samsung AHCI M.2 SM951 SSD's either trim can be enabled or they can be shown as internal.

    A kext patch will make the Mac System Information list the Samsung M.2 AHCI SM951's as Internal but doing this turns off trim support for these 2 discs (but not other SSD's in the cMP). I am able to add the kext patch as I can get into Recovery with ⌘R that allows SIP to be turned off & the kext patch works & the discs become Internal (but this turns off trim).

    Am trying to stripe the 2 x 951's & use this RAID 0 to boot High Sierra from.

    =====

    System:

    2009 4.1 cMP FLASHED 5.1
    2 x 3.33GHz
    64GB RAM

    Slot 1: AMD HD7950 unflashed
    Slot 2: Sonnet Pro 3.0 USB
    Slot 3: Lycom DT-120 / Samsung AHCI M.2 SM951 256GB SSD
    Slot 4: Lycom DT-120 / Samsung AHCI M.2 SM951 256GB SSD

    =====

    So I can disable csrutil, turn off SIP, that allows the kext patch to work & the M.2's become Internal but this turns off Trim for the M.2's

    =====

    Have the following installed, and have tried solving my issue from each OS:

    High Sierra 10.13.3
    Sierra 10.12.6
    El Capitan 10.11.6
    Yosemite 10.10.5
    Mavericks 10.9.5

    =====

    What I am missing this time round, previously had clean installed Sierra 10.12.0 onto these M.2's but attempting a clean install of High Sierra 10.13.0 from a USB has gotten me in this position where I can't get the M.2's to be both trim enabled & shown as internal.

    If someone could assist me, tell me where to look or what I am doing wrong that would be awesome!

    TIA
    =====

    Current screengrabs : currently booting from 1GB HDD in Bay #2 (i.e. pro-2)

    Messages Image(3316600361).png



    Hardware Overview:

    Messages Image(2145612504).png



    PCI Info:

    Messages Image(1991905046).png



    SATA Info / Trim OFF / M.2 in Slot #4 / Has High Sierra on it right now.

    Messages Image(1806986160).png



    SATA Info / Trim OFF / M.2 in Slot #3 / Has some .mp4 files on it right now

    Messages Image(1195593259).png



    SATA Info / Trim ON / 256GB Apple SSD in Upper Drive Bay / Has some .mp4 files on it right now

    Messages Image(1491925834).png



    Storage Info: M.2's currently Internal (if Trim is enabled they become External)

    Messages Image(3814677539).png



    csrutil status / trim status:

    SIP disabled (hence the kext means the M.2's show up as Internal (at the same time turning OFF Trim for the M.2's))

    Trim No Yes No (i.e. OFF for the M.2's and ON for the SSD in Upper Bay)

    Messages Image(3266993722).png
     
  2. h9826790 macrumors G5

    h9826790

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2014
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    #2
    What patch?

    Sorry, I didn't read through your post, it looks complicated. The SM951 AHCI is supported natively on cMP, why mess around with any kext patch? Just install it, format to HFS+, turn on TRIM, then you are good to go.
     
  3. saulinpa macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    #3
    Why do you care about showing as internal?
    You just need to turn TRIM on for non-Apple drives.
    sudo trimforce enable
     
  4. harlansmart thread starter macrumors newbie

    harlansmart

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2016
    Location:
    Nouvelle Zélande
    #4
    Thanks heaps h9826790 & I have read tonnes of your useful posts, and recognise you are often super helpful to members here.

    I want to stripe the 2 x SM951 M.2 SSD's on the Lycom DT-120 cards in my PCi slots (3 & 4) & install my boot drive again.

    Previously I had Sierra on these 2 discs, striped, and I wanted to install High Sierra but now I'm screwed up, and need advice/instruction/assistance.

    The kext patch I refer to is in Post #3 here, which does work, and does allow one to make the discs show as Internal but doing so also makes the trim for the PCI SSD M.2's OFF:

    https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mac-pro-early-2008-upgrades.1701295/

    =======

    Thanks a lot saulinpa, AFAIK (and I know very little) I can't use OS X Disk Utility to stripe external drives to RAID 0

    I can use the terminal command sudo trimforce enable to turn on trim for the SM951's but if I do this the disks also become 'external' so preventing me striping them.

     
  5. hnr2802 macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    May 3, 2010
    #5
    Just wondering any reason why you want RAID 0 for you 2 x SM951?
     
  6. harlansmart, Mar 7, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018

    harlansmart thread starter macrumors newbie

    harlansmart

    Joined:
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    #6
    Cheers hnr2802,

    Simply because it was the best configuration the computer had ever had, it was excellent like it was in Sierra. Seemed pretty fast & had worked for a year or so, awesome (relatively vs my others computers).

    Went to do the same in High Sierra w/a clean install from a HS USB & got screwed up with the kexts and the internal/external & the trim & now I can't get the discs raided/striped again.

    Tried cloning a copy of the old RAID 0 but that didn't (even begin to) work either.

    It was giving, 2500MBs approx. R/W with Sierra.


     
  7. h9826790 macrumors G5

    h9826790

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2014
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    #7
    Of course you can RAID external drives together. I can actually RAID a SD card and a USB drive together as a RAID 0 array. Screen Shot 2018-03-07 at 21.34.35.jpg
    That "external" is quite cosmetic in macOS, just leave it as is should be fine.
     
  8. macuser453787 macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    May 19, 2012
    Location:
    Galatians 3:13-14
    #8
    So HS isn't allowing you to stripe the SM951's when they mount as "external" drives?

    That doesn't seem right. I previously owned this card with 2 SSDs mounted on it. They showed up as external drives, and I striped them for use as my primary boot drive. At the time I was running Mavericks and later updated to Yosemite. I may have even updated to El Capitan with that setup, don't quite remember though. But the point is it worked without issue in at least 2 different OSes.

    Did you previously use Disk Utility to create the stripe in Sierra?
    --- Post Merged, Mar 7, 2018 ---
    Yeah, what he said :)
     
  9. MikkelAD macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2018
    #9
    Just to be clear if anybody should be in any doubt. I am quit sure you can't make a boot-able drive set up for RAID with High Sierra unless you stay with HFS+ and DON'T upgrade to APFS...
     
  10. macuser453787 macrumors 6502a

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    #10
    Ah, maybe APFS is the reason for the OP's issue
     
  11. MikkelAD macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2018
    #11
    Maybe :) I am by no means an apple expert in any kind. But when I bought my 5.1 and upgraded it with PCI-E SSD card I had the idea to raid my two 850 evo's because I really don't need a lot of space.

    But... I ran into exactly that problem, so it was either no raid for my boot-able SSDs or do the whole "show" with cloning your HD back to HFS+ or use earlier OSX...


    DAMN! I wish apple would fix APFS and BOOTCAMP :)
     
  12. harlansmart thread starter macrumors newbie

    harlansmart

    Joined:
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    #12
    Thanks a lot people, appreciate the input greatly.

    ASAP will check & confirm from both HFS+ and APFS

    Think (thought?) I had been trying from both HFS+ and APFS
     
  13. harlansmart, Mar 8, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018

    harlansmart thread starter macrumors newbie

    harlansmart

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    #13
    macuser,

    Sorry I missed the link you provided before on my phone.

    Previous to the Samsung SM951's I had 2 x Samsung 850 Evo Pro SSD on exactly that same card you link to (pictured below) & was able to stripe them (or mirror) with Disk Utility no problem at all, I think they showed up as 'External', but that never gave me any issue, they definitely had Trim enabled, that was with El Capitan & possibly Sierra too also (I can not recall).

    The only problem I have had, is this time round with the SM951's. I'd striped these SM951's on Sierra no problem last year but this time round, wanting High Sierra (and preferably HPFS) I can't get them into RAID 0 even after 2 weeks of trying & don't know why.

    I'll check to see if I have definitely tried with them in HFS+ ASAP.

    prodhdr_tempossdproplus.jpg



    --- Post Merged, Mar 8, 2018 ---


    ==============================================

    MikkelAD,

    This is possibly the issue, so perhaps if I check again, put both 951's in HFS+, trim enable them, ignore the issue of internal/external they might be able to be striped again. Will check this ASAP.



    ==============================================

    h9826790,

    Unsure, possibly there are (a few variables), different types of 'external discs', different interfaces & different versions of OS.



    ==============================================

    Thanks a lot people, appreciate the input greatly.

    ASAP will check & confirm from both HFS+ / APFS (and ignoring the issue of the 951's being shown as'External').

    Thank you.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. macuser453787 macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    May 19, 2012
    Location:
    Galatians 3:13-14
    #14
    I hear ya, I have no intention of using it anytime soon.

    When I upgrade to HS, I will be sure to use HFS+. :)
     
  15. MikkelAD macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2018
    #15
    Yeah. I installed HS on my Mac Pro and was at first happy with APFS but think I might have to clean install my 5.1 with HFS+ It gives too much trouble right now: No raid options (boot drive), BOOTCAMP won't recognize APFS and so on :(

    Think I will keep HS with APFS on my iMac late 2013 though...
     
  16. harlansmart thread starter macrumors newbie

    harlansmart

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2016
    Location:
    Nouvelle Zélande
    #16
    Took me a while to get back to this, but have just tried:

    10.9.5
    HFS+
    Trim No (cannot sudo trimforce enable)
    SM951 x 2 M.2 SSD's showing as Internal
    SIP Disabled
    Can Concatenate & Mirror
    Black Magic Speed Test 500/1500
    Cannot Stripe in RAID 0

    10.10.5
    HFS+
    Trim No (cannot sudo trimforce enable)
    SM951 x 2 M.2 SSD's showing as Internal
    SIP Disabled
    Can Concatenate & Mirror
    Black Magic Speed Test 400/1500
    Cannot Stripe in RAID 0

    10.11.6
    HFS+
    Trim No (cannot sudo trimforce enable although it says it is when rebooting & says successful etc)
    SM951 x 2 M.2 SSD's showing as Internal
    SIP Disabled
    Can Concatenate & Mirror
    Black Magic Speed Test 5-600/1500
    Cannot Stripe in RAID 0

    10.12.6
    HFS+
    Trim No (cannot sudo trimforce enable although it says it is when rebooting & says successful etc)
    SM951 x 2 M.2 SSD's showing as Internal
    SIP Disabled
    Can Concatenate & Mirror
    Black Magic Speed Test 300/1500
    Cannot Stripe in RAID 0

    10.13.3
    HFS+
    Trim No (cannot sudo trimforce enable although it says it is when rebooting & says successful etc)
    SM951 x 2 M.2 SSD's showing as Internal
    SIP Disabled
    Can Concatenate & Mirror
    Black Magic Speed Test 300/1500
    Cannot Stripe in RAID 0

    ================

    Used ⌘R to Enable SIP with csrutil enable which allowed me to Trim Yes & made the M.2 SSD's external

    HFS+
    Trim Yes
    SM951 x 2 M.2 SSD's shown as 512Gb RAID Storage & External in System Information
    SIP Disabled
    Can Concatenate & Mirror
    'Can' Stripe in RAID 0 according to Disc Utility BUT it creates a 512GB disc not a 256GB disc? (Tested by moving ~300GB media to the 'striped' SM951's (GOD)
    Black Magic Speed Test 200/1500

    So... still unable to Stripe the SM951's in RAID 0... what am I doing wrong?

    Pics/screengrabs showing the above info & current state to follow:



    SIP Enabled

    Messages Image(2936301643).png


    Trim Yes

    Messages Image(1094063432).png


    HFS+ / Apple RAID

    Messages Image(1243148365).png


    511GB RAID Storage

    Messages Image(2772644318).png


    Internal Storage No

    Messages Image(3166938978).png


    Speed Test of the 'Striped' SM951's supposedly in RAID 0 according to 10.13.3 Disc Utility

    Messages Image(974704826).png


    Disk Utility showing the 2 x 256GB SM951's in RAID (but not RAID 0, more like they are concatenated)

    Messages Image(3169483022).png
    --- Post Merged, Mar 13, 2018 ---
    Breaking up the RAID set...:

    SM951 in Slot #3 gets left shown after breaking up the RAID as Uninitialized

    Messages Image(2102615498).png

    =================================================================

    SM951 in Slot #4 I just formatted & named 4 & tested, works fine...:

    HFS+
    Trim On
    Volume 4
    Internal No
    Device disk0s2

    Messages Image(3663588322).png
     
  17. saulinpa macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    #17
    Sounds like you may be confused between RAID 0 and 1. 0 uses space fully by interleaving blocks for performance so 256+256=512. 1 is mirror so 256 mirrored 256=256.

    Either way there have been articles how RAID does not speed up SSDs much. Exception is if OS knows how to do concurrent I/O and no hardware bottlenecks.
     
  18. harlansmart, Mar 13, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018

    harlansmart thread starter macrumors newbie

    harlansmart

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2016
    Location:
    Nouvelle Zélande
    #18
    saulpina,

    Ah! - bingo, that then is something to stop worrying about - so these 2 x SAMSUNG 256GB SM951's striped in RAID 0 actually do simply become a single volume of 512GB not a 256GB volume as I'd been looking for.

    So, right... where's the speed at then, with Sierra striped in RAID 0 they gave R/W 2400MBs & now can't get them above a fraction of that, this is the actual problem.

    Not sure what's different, apart from the version of OS X, definitely trying now on HFS+, but have really really slow R/W speeds now i.e. 200/1500MBs

    What else can is there do, what other variables might be being missed... what more can be checked?
     
  19. h9826790 macrumors G5

    h9826790

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2014
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    #19
    1) It seems now you already know what is RAID 0, then this problem is fixed. There is nothing wrong in your system on this matter.

    2) Your result suggested that the TRIM is not supported in a software RAID array. That's why the write speed is so slow, but read speed is not affected.

    3) PCIe slot 3 and 4 share used the same x4 lane. It's impossible to get anything higher than ~1500MB/s by RAIDing the SSD in slot 3 and 4 (even though either of them can achieve 1500MB/s independently). You are bottlenecked by the bandwidth.

    If you want faster read speed, you can swap onc of your SSD with the USB 3.0 card, then join the SSD in a RAID 0 array (in your case, make it a single 512GB partition). Then the read speed of the RAID 0 array should go above 2500MB/s, but write speed may still stay slow because lack of TRIM support.
     
  20. harlansmart, Mar 14, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018

    harlansmart thread starter macrumors newbie

    harlansmart

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2016
    Location:
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    #20
    h9826790,

    Once again 'thank you' for your experience and mega supa brains!

    So I need to switch one the SSD M.2's into the #2 PCIe slot the SONNET USB3.0 card is currently in & try again.

    I don't know what slots I used to use, I should have kept some notes / records duh !

    Also, I have over time, had 7-8 of these 'same' 256GB SAMSUNG AHCI SM951's & have just seen that some are labelled '-000H1 Media' while some are labelled '-00000 Media'.

    The 2 x M.2 SSD's that I have now are '00000' & '000H1'.

    google says '00000' is a plain SAMSUNG disc while the '000H1' is a HP version, wonder if that makes any difference.

    Will swap one of the Lycom DT-120/SM951 AHCI cards to the #2 slot & test.

    Cheers again, for the solid advice & time/help!
     
  21. harlansmart, Mar 18, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018

    harlansmart thread starter macrumors newbie

    harlansmart

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Nouvelle Zélande
    #21
    (Please this is mostly (merely?) a record for me).


    So:

    Lets do as h9826790 suggests and swap ‘Volume 4’ PCIe SSD into Slot 2, hence:

    Slot 1 GPU
    Slot 2 SSD 00000 ‘4’
    Slot 3 SSD 000H1 ‘3’
    Slot 4 USB

    HFS+
    Striped
    RAID 0
    Trim On
    External…

    Messages Image(2710837910).png

    Messages Image(883386095).png

    Messages Image(4065069841).png

    Messages Image(854912330).png

    Messages Image(4208108963).png

    BM 1GB Block Speed: 1400/1500MB/s

    Messages Image(390112581).png

    Hmmm, why isn’t the read speed more like 2500MB/s ?
    --- Post Merged, Mar 18, 2018 ---
    Some more tests booting from 10.13.3 using a 1TB HFS+ Formatted HDD in Bay 1

    Test 1:

    PCIe Slot 4
    Volume ‘4’
    Model: SAMSUNG MZHPV256HDGL-000H1
    Revision: BXW24H0Q
    Serial Number: S1WZNYAGA06648
    Trim Support: Yes
    Internal: No
    S.M.A.R.T. status: Verified
    File System: Journaled HFS+
    System Integrity Protection status: enabled

    BM 1GB Block Speed: 1200/1400MB/s

    Messages Image(278230086).png
    --- Post Merged, Mar 18, 2018 ---
    Test 2:

    PCIe Slot 3
    Volume ‘3’
    Model: SAMSUNG MZHPV256HDGL-000H1
    Revision: BXW24H0Q
    Serial Number: S1WZNYAGA06648
    Trim Support: Yes
    Internal: No
    S.M.A.R.T. status: Verified
    File System: Journaled APFS
    System Integrity Protection status: enabled

    BM 1G Block Speed: 750-1250/1350-1400MB/s

    Messages Image(2633161883).png
     
  22. harlansmart, Mar 18, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018

    harlansmart thread starter macrumors newbie

    harlansmart

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2016
    Location:
    Nouvelle Zélande
    #22
    Test 3: Will format Volume ’4’ in APFS (Done)

    Messages Image(1153466626).png

    Will (attempt) to RAID 0 External Trimmed PCIe SM951 APFS Volumes ‘SAMSUNG MZHPV256HDGL-000H1 Media (disk1)’ + ’SAMSUNG MZHPV256HDGL-00000 Media (disk0)’ (Fail)

    Messages Image(3436902784).png
    Messages Image(33362113).png

    Will attempt to RAID 1 External Trimmed PCIe SM951 APFS Volumes ‘3’ + ’4’ (Fail)

    Messages Image(2579220505).png
    Messages Image(3798599586).png
    --- Post Merged, Mar 18, 2018 ---
    Messages Image(42746516).png


    Test 5

    Hmm… while I am here in HS 10.13.3 with the PCIe SSD’s in APFS lets try to Mirror RAID 1 External Trimmed PCIe SM951 APFS Volumes ‘SAMSUNG MZHPV256HDGL-000H1 Media (disk1)’ + ’SAMSUNG MZHPV256HDGL-00000 Media (disk0)

    Messages Image(3103874967).png

    Messages Image(2665403192).png

    Doing this has changed the format to HFS+

    Still Trimmed, still External etc

    Messages Image(1557850592).png
    Messages Image(549271357).png
     
  23. harlansmart thread starter macrumors newbie

    harlansmart

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2016
    Location:
    Nouvelle Zélande
    #23
    Test 6

    Will format/erase Volumes ‘3’ +’4’ leaving in HFS+ and attempt to Stripe RAID 0

    Tricky to delete the RAID

    Messages Image(3998703027).png

    Eject/Erase GOD

    Messages Image(2010043568).png

    Lets try stripe RAID 0 the PCIe HFS+ SSD’s
    Still on HS 10.13.3 in 1TB HDD Bay 1 / Trimmed / SSD’d are External

    Messages Image(258310971).png
    Messages Image(1844219680).png

    Messages Image(1853801096).png

    HFS+
    RAID 0 Stripe
    Trim On
    External
    10.13.3

    BM 1G Block Speed: 1350-1400/1400-1450MB/s

    Messages Image(3639985419).png
    (This is almost the same as when the discs are not in RAID 0.)

    Test 7 Complete
    ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————

    Is there any way to get the discs to read/write faster?
    Should be 2500MB/s read speed from 2 x SM951 in PCIe RAID 0
    --- Post Merged, Mar 18, 2018 ---
    Test 8

    Boot into Recovery with ⌘R
    Disable SIP with csrutil disable

    PCIe SM951 SSD's in Slots #2 and #3 are now Internal

    Messages Image(3967018988).png

    Messages Image(3591456520).png

    Of course now TRIM Support = No

    Messages Image(16769865).png
     
  24. harlansmart, Mar 18, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018

    harlansmart thread starter macrumors newbie

    harlansmart

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2016
    Location:
    Nouvelle Zélande
    #24
    Just checking the speed of the sticks on their own...

    Slot #2 SM951 (HFS+ / Internal / Trim No)
    Messages Image(2835440003).png


    Slot #3 SM951 (HFS+ / Internal / Trim No)
    Messages Image(3777370644).png

    Will stripe in RAID 0....

    Messages Image(2669798504).png
    Messages Image(3175193846).png

    Messages Image(4019196967).png

    HFS+
    Internal Yes
    SIP: Disabled
    Striped / RAID 0
    Slots #2 and #3
    TRIM Support No

    Messages Image(3529263675).png


    So: Thus far, results of Black Magic Speed Test suggest adjusting the following (3) variables makes practically no difference on R/W speed:

    Which PCIe slots used or
    Whether Trim is enabled or
    Whether discs are Internal or External
     
  25. h9826790, Mar 19, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018

    h9826790 macrumors G5

    h9826790

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2014
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    #25
    Thanks for the detailed report.

    If you want me to explain this. It's because your adaptor cannot run PCIe 2.0 x4 in slot 2, but PCIe 1.0 x4 (this is a known issue of some adaptors)
    Messages Image(4065069841).png

    Therefore, the associated drive is now limited to 750MB/s. And the whole RAID 0 array is limited to this 750MB/s x2 = 1500MB/s.
     
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