50-cent-branded Mac rational thread

tveric

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jun 23, 2003
400
0
I didn't see any posts that were insulting and/or off-topic in the Page 1 thread, so I can only assume they were all deleted.

That being said, I have to think it's a healthy discussion to have (whether the actual product is just a rumor or a real possibility). It seems most people not liking the idea of Apple teaming up with 50-cent have a problem with 50-cent's image, whatever that may mean to them. Those defending the possibilty of a 50-cent-branded low-price Mac say "Damn the torpedoes, get more Mac users into the fold!"

I find myself agreeing a bit more with the latter point of view - what really disturbed me was that not only was the thread closed, but the mod then seemed to be disappointed with the lack of people "reporting" the posts in the thread to the mods, and encouraged "more policing". It occurs to me that a lot of people probably thought the discussion was a good one and shouldn't have been killed just because of a few stupid posters, and thus saw no reason to report the thread. Isn't it better to err on the side of an open discussion rather than killing said discussion over the comments of an errant few? The mods are certainly free to practice censorship; it is, after all, a private website; however, that doesn't mean that the censorship is a good idea every single time. Suspending the accounts (with a warning) of the offending posters for a few days would surely be a better idea. And if only 1 person had a problem with the thread, why are we letting 1 person kill the discussion that hundreds of other were having?

I don't know if it's beyond the ability of the site operators to have a Slashdot-like moderation system in effect, but I think anyone who has ever participated in a discussion there would agree that it takes self-policing to the best level that we've seen so far on the web.
 

vniow

macrumors G4
Jul 18, 2002
10,266
0
I accidentally my whole location.
tveric said:
...what really disturbed me was that not only was the thread closed, but the mod then seemed to be disappointed with the lack of people "reporting" the posts in the thread to the mods, and encouraged "more policing".
That's a pretty decent sized thread, over 300 replies and 14 pages long in a few short hours. Mods here have but a limited amount of time to browse the forum and rely on reported posts a fair amount in order to do their job. You can't expect them to read through every thread and moderate acordingly, we as a community have to assist them in reporting offending posts.

What happened in that particular thread was that one post got reported, a mod came through and started reading the thread and found more unreported offending posts and made the call to close the thread. Had the community been a bit more active, perhaps the posts would have been reported earlier and the thread may still be open. I doubt it though, it started to repeat itself after only a few pages and there wasn't anything new going on but my point still stands.

The report button is our version of a Slashdot-style moderation system as its almost completely reliant on the community but also relies on individual moderators who are able to make the decision of whether to do something about it or not.
 

Rower_CPU

Moderator emeritus
Oct 5, 2001
11,219
0
San Diego, CA
As "the mod" in question, let me explain further:

There were numerous posts in that thread that were either insulting to other forum members, off-topic, or a combination of the two. As vniow pointed it out, it grew quite large quite quickly thanks mostly to said off-topic/inflammatory discussion - had it come to our attention earlier, the topic might have been saved before the signal-to-noise ratio got to the point it did. It's just as much the responsibility of the community at large to uphold our standards of discussion as it is the moderators'.

IMO, by the time a thread gets to that point it's not worth our (unpaid) time to sort out the good from the bad and let the discussion continue. Does good discussion get stopped along with the bad? Unfortunately, yes - but leaving the whole thing alone only promotes further trouble.
 

rdowns

macrumors Penryn
Jul 11, 2003
27,400
12,510
You made the right decision, that thread was going nowhere except insults.
 

commonpeople

macrumors regular
Nov 9, 2004
198
0
Some people were claiming to be offended. Some were calling others racists. When posters asked for specific examples of racist comments the accusers couldn't supply any apart from a general accusation of bigotry.

Just because some people shout 'racism' in a crowded theater, that doesn't make it so without good evidence. Making fun of Hip Hop culture with the guns and the bling does not fit most people's definition of discrimination on the basis of race.

The posts may have been off-topic, but I don't believe they were willingly offensive- though it's true that some posters were making a lot of noise about being offended.
 

technicolor

macrumors 68000
Dec 21, 2005
1,651
0
><><><><
commonpeople said:
Some people were claiming to be offended. Some were calling others racists. When posters asked for specific examples of racist comments the accusers couldn't supply any apart from a general accusation of bigotry.

Just because some people shout 'racism' in a crowded theater, that doesn't make it so without good evidence. Making fun of Hip Hop culture with the guns and the bling does not fit most people's definition of discrimination on the basis of race.

The posts may have been off-topic, but I don't believe they were willingly offensive- though it's true that some posters were making a lot of noise about being offended.
Please..

Even you admitted your post was borderline and could be taken that way.
There were a lot of posts in that thread that had prejudiced undertones, people referred to the computer as ghettomac and other such nonsense. So dont go acting as if that thread was so innocent and there were no problematic inferences within.

As well as I think I saw ppl referring to gay people in a deragatory manner as well.
 

Chundles

macrumors G4
Jul 4, 2005
11,966
379
I think that making a computer that is affordable to the people of the inner-city (must be an American thing, people living in much of the inner-city here are rolling in cash) is a fantastic idea.

Pairing up with 50 cent to do it is not, in my opinion, a good idea. I don't care if he's black, white or polka-dot but his general character and his beliefs that come through in the lyrics to his music IS NOT something I believe Apple should be associating with. If they want to brand a computer with someone to inspire people to use the computer as a tool to rise above a life of poverty and begin to better the community around them I think there are far better choices (and people with proven staying power, who will still be role models many years down the track despite the public's fickle nature of grabbing and discarding celebrities) than 50 cent.
 

commonpeople

macrumors regular
Nov 9, 2004
198
0
technicolor said:
Please..

Even you admitted your post was borderline and could be taken that way.
There were a lot of posts in that thread that had prejudiced undertones, people referred to the computer as ghettomac and other such nonsense. So dont go acting as if that thread was so innocent and there were no problematic inferences within.

As well as I think I saw ppl referring to gay people in a deragatory manner as well.
Borderline in the sense that I figured it could be taken the wrong way. You're missing out the rest of the explanation I gave and you told me you accepted.

And since 50 cent raps about the ghetto in his songs- I do not think the ghetto-mac comments are racist. Go and look at his 'Ghetto Quran' lyrics and tell me that only a racist could have made that comment.
 

technicolor

macrumors 68000
Dec 21, 2005
1,651
0
><><><><
commonpeople said:
Borderline in the sense that I figured it could be taken the wrong way. You're missing out the rest of the explanation I gave and you told me you accepted.

And since 50 cent raps about the ghetto in his songs- I do not think the ghetto-mac comments are racist. Go and look at his 'Ghetto Quran' lyrics and tell me that only a racist could have made that comment.
Surreeee....

the article was about innercity computing

yeah posters were only referring to his lyrics
:rolleyes:
despite what 50 says, everyone in the innercity doesnt live in the ghetto, nor are they ghetto the adjective
but it would take an openminded non sterotyping person to realize that, now wouldnt it?

ghetto
innercity
urban
all those are loaded buzz words full of connotations
lets not play innocent
we know what they mean


I accepted what you said, that doesnt mean that thread was innocent and free from racist overtones..

but I am not going to go back and forth with you.

The thread was shut down for a reason..

but you continue to be in pretend land and act like that topic was not loaded and problematic

:rolleyes:

and this will be my last post to this topic as well
 

commonpeople

macrumors regular
Nov 9, 2004
198
0
technicolor said:
Surreeee....

the article was abot innercity computing

yeah posters were only referring to his lyrics
:rolleyes:

I accepted what you said, that doesnt mean that thread was innocent and free from racist overtones..

but I am not going to go back and forth with you.

The thread was shut down for a reason..

but you continue to be in pretend land and act like that topic was not loaded and problematic

:rolleyes:

and this will be my last post to this topic as well

If you continue to act offended without pointing out any concrete examples then I can't give any credit to your argument. Making a charge of racism is pretty serious in my opinion. You need to be able to back it up.

Yes, the ridicule was mostly a reaction to 50 cent's lyrics which are an insult to the English language and give the crudest depiction of 'ghetto' life.

I absolutely agree that there's a double standard going on here. Eminem gets away with a lot- because the media tends to find it easier to see irony in a white rapper's lyrics, whereas a black rapper is more often taken literally.

I suppose that there may be a layer of knowing irony to 50 cent- but I really find it hard to see it. It really does seem like he means what he writes- though I'm willing to be proven wrong.
 

swingerofbirch

macrumors 68040
I was actually surprised it wasn't shut down earlier--not because of the comments--but because of the propensity for MacRumors to censor quite heavily compared to other boards I frequent.

It gets to the heart of my own position on racism which is that the main message we send people, especially children, is supression.

If you grow up in a home where you are taught all your life that blacks are lazy and insolent, and you suddenly go to public school, you are essentially taught to supress your beliefs. No one actually talks about them.

Oprah had a man on her show who had said to her that there are two types of blacks, there are blacks and n******. Oprah didn't listen to what he had to say. She just instanlty lashed out at him. Yet she praises Chris Rock who is infamous for making very similar statements.

I am gay. And I don't care at all if people call me a fag, or whatever. If someone called me a fag and I was super offended, where would it get anyone? What does it matter? It's just a word. If you don't react the word has no power. You can't be offended unless you believe the offending remark to be true of yourself.

I know this will be very unpopular but I think if we were to use words like polak, chinaman, gimp, spic, etc, that we would actually start to work on racism.

It's this supression that's hurting us. It keeps people in separate camps tolerating each other. Why should it be enough to tolerate?

The people I know who are on the surface the most socially enlightened are the ones who would be uncomfortable in a room full of black people. The kids I grew up who used the n-word weren't particularly uncomfortable with black people--they are the ones who worked with blacks and were in the same classes as them.
 

devilot

Moderator emeritus
May 1, 2005
15,588
1
swingerofbirch said:
What does it matter? It's just a word. If you don't react the word has no power. You can't be offended unless you believe the offending remark to be true of yourself.

I know this will be very unpopular but I think if we were to use words like polak, chinaman, gimp, spic, etc, that we would actually start to work on racism.

It's this supression that's hurting us. It keeps people in separate camps tolerating each other. Why should it be enough to tolerate?
I disagree. Words-- language is power. And language is collectively decided upon by a given culture, by society and thus, reflects the standards, values, and power dynamics of that culture. To ignore this innate power of language is choosing denial.

I agree that open communication could be very helpful, but to have open communication, I think it's important to use language that is more neutral-- that doesn't necessarily reflect such traditional power roles; so as to the slurs you listed, I don't see how they would aid such discussions. Merely incite, enrage, and hurt.
 

decksnap

macrumors 68040
Apr 11, 2003
3,070
70
I read that entire thread. (Why??? I don't know) I didn't find any racist commentary in there. There was a LOT of unfounded accusations of racism IMO. People not seemingly aware that someone can dislike a person regardless of their skin color or culture- that they can just be dislikeable on their own merit.
 

devilot

Moderator emeritus
May 1, 2005
15,588
1
decksnap said:
I read that entire thread. (Why??? I don't know) I didn't find any racist commentary in there. There was a LOT of unfounded accusations of racism IMO.
I didn't read the thread in question, but I'm guessing that some mods have cleaned up some of the posts...
 

commonpeople

macrumors regular
Nov 9, 2004
198
0
swingerofbirch said:
I was actually surprised it wasn't shut down earlier--not because of the comments--but because of the propensity for MacRumors to censor quite heavily compared to other boards I frequent.

It gets to the heart of my own position on racism which is that the main message we send people, especially children, is supression.

If you grow up in a home where you are taught all your life that blacks are lazy and insolent, and you suddenly go to public school, you are essentially taught to supress your beliefs. No one actually talks about them.

Oprah had a man on her show who had said to her that there are two types of blacks, there are blacks and n******. Oprah didn't listen to what he had to say. She just instanlty lashed out at him. Yet she praises Chris Rock who is infamous for making very similar statements.

I am gay. And I don't care at all if people call me a fag, or whatever. If someone called me a fag and I was super offended, where would it get anyone? What does it matter? It's just a word. If you don't react the word has no power. You can't be offended unless you believe the offending remark to be true of yourself.

I know this will be very unpopular but I think if we were to use words like polak, chinaman, gimp, spic, etc, that we would actually start to work on racism.

It's this supression that's hurting us. It keeps people in separate camps tolerating each other. Why should it be enough to tolerate?

The people I know who are on the surface the most socially enlightened are the ones who would be uncomfortable in a room full of black people. The kids I grew up who used the n-word weren't particularly uncomfortable with black people--they are the ones who worked with blacks and were in the same classes as them.
Ooh, you said the f** word. You're a self-hating homophobe. I'm going to report you for hating yourself.

I agree to an extent. I'm not sure that I'd like to see everyone start calling eachother by the names you mention- but I do worry that using the names now seems a greater offense than actually being racist or homophobic, but covering it up with polite language. It's also true that people get sick of being called racist when trying to discuss a controversial topic. It's like the 'when did you last beat your wife?' question.

Racism is ultimately becoming a thought crime in this country. Let's concentrate a little more on understanding the real crimes of neglect and discrimination that create the ghettos and be less quick to be offended at the slightest provocation.
 

decksnap

macrumors 68040
Apr 11, 2003
3,070
70
Maybe... but the indignation was mostly quoting posts that were targeting 50 cent the person, not 50 cent the black person. Can we not dislike 50 cent simply because he's a bad person and horrible role model?
 

swingerofbirch

macrumors 68040
I didn't notice any posts being deleted. I posted some posts I thought were funny that didn't get deleted which surprised me.

If you want an example of the type of open racism which I think is disarming and aids in lessening racism watch the TV show Strangers with Candy (it's on DVD..not TV anymore). We have to be able to laugh at ourselves.
 

celebrian23

macrumors 65816
Mar 12, 2006
1,186
0
Under the sun
I think it should've been closed down. It wasn't that I thought it was racist, but the thread was getting completely out of control- it was about how much people hate his music- not the issue. I agree it was beyond saving.
 

commonpeople

macrumors regular
Nov 9, 2004
198
0
devilot said:
I disagree. Words-- language is power. And language is collectively decided upon by a given culture, by society and thus, reflects the standards, values, and power dynamics of that culture. To ignore this innate power of language is choosing denial.

I agree that open communication could be very helpful, but to have open communication, I think it's important to use language that is more neutral-- that doesn't necessarily reflect such traditional power roles; so as to the slurs you listed, I don't see how they would aid such discussions. Merely incite, enrage, and hurt.
By your standards 50 cent's use of various racial epithets would make him one of the worst racists. The rules are changing, and by and large they've been changed by black culture from within. I find it hard to read 50 cent's lyrics and not conclude that he's trying to make money from shocking people with their offensiveness. (Nothing wrong with that of course!)

Context is everything of course, but it's really difficult to discuss 50 cent without some people being offended. Some people seem to see him as a folk hero- whereas others see him as exemplifying the worst stereotypes. But that's a game he's playing, and getting very rich doing so.
 

devilot

Moderator emeritus
May 1, 2005
15,588
1
commonpeople said:
By your standards 50 cent's use of various racial epithets would make him one of the worst racists.
Unfortunately, I'm really not familiar w/ his work or his lyrics so I can't really comment on that.
commonpeople said:
Context is everything of course...
Yes, I'll assume his lyrics use language such as the "n" word, but this is to further emphasize the point I was trying to make.

The smaller culture he subscribes to has reclaimed the "n" word. Much like the GLBT community has reclaimed other words such as "fag," "dyke," "fairy," etc. Or contemporary folks are reclaiming the "f" word, feminism. It is through this conscious decision to use words in a different manner, contrary to the mainstream usage, that shows the power of language.
 

commonpeople

macrumors regular
Nov 9, 2004
198
0
devilot said:
Unfortunately, I'm really not familiar w/ his work or his lyrics so I can't really comment on that.
Yes, I'll assume his lyrics use language such as the "n" word, but this is to further emphasize the point I was trying to make.

The smaller culture he subscribes to has reclaimed the "n" word. Much like the GLBT community has reclaimed other words such as "fag," "dyke," "fairy," etc. Or contemporary folks are reclaiming the "f" word, feminism. It is through this conscious decision to use words in a different manner, contrary to the mainstream usage, that shows the power of language.
I'm reclaiming the 'idiot' word.
 

Squire

macrumors 68000
Jan 8, 2003
1,563
0
Canada
swingerofbirch said:
I know this will be very unpopular but I think if we were to use words like polak, chinaman, gimp, spic, etc, that we would actually start to work on racism.
And...

devilot said:
I disagree. Words-- language is power. And language is collectively decided upon by a given culture, by society and thus, reflects the standards, values, and power dynamics of that culture. To ignore this innate power of language is choosing denial.
I think you both have valid points. I think, more than the words themselves, it's the connotations-- the feelings associated with such words-- that cause the problems. Often, the offensive term did not start out as offensive.

decksnap said:
I read that entire thread. (Why??? I don't know) I didn't find any racist commentary in there. There was a LOT of unfounded accusations of racism IMO. People not seemingly aware that someone can dislike a person regardless of their skin color or culture- that they can just be dislikeable on their own merit.
I have a similar view. Stereotyping and making racist remarks aren't the same thing. However, the thread did in fact go down the toilet in a hurry. Which brings me to a suggestion: How about UPDATE: This thread has been closed under the story on the main page? Like decksnap, I struggled through the whole thread and kicked myself afterwards. It was like channel surfing and finding something vaguely interesting on "The Jerry Springer Show" only to realize that you had been watching the crap for 20 minutes.

-Squire
 

Rower_CPU

Moderator emeritus
Oct 5, 2001
11,219
0
San Diego, CA
Squire said:
[...]a suggestion: How about UPDATE: This thread has been closed under the story on the main page? Like decksnap, I struggled through the whole thread and kicked myself afterwards. It was like channel surfing and finding something vaguely interesting on "The Jerry Springer Show" only to realize that you had been watching the crap for 20 minutes.
Good suggestion - done now. :)
 

Josh

macrumors 68000
Mar 4, 2004
1,640
1
State College, PA
While no one (to my knowledge) flat out called 50 the 'n' word or anything blatant, there were obvious racial undertones in several posts, from several members.

The kicker however is that not ONE joke of a similar nature was made when Eminem teamed with Apple for the iPod deal. So the whole "we dislike the rapper image" arguement is BS.

Instead of a white rapper, it's a black rapper this time, who has an affiliation with Apple of a completely unknown size, and all kinds of childish jokes an ignorant comments come flying through.

Several people noticed that, and some others stayed to ask for an explanation, of which there was none. Others like myself just got fed up with the elitist ignorance we just left the thread.

Here is a man helping Apple deliver products to inner city people who would not have them any other way. More Apple products in more hands that need them. And there's complaints?

I lost a lot of respect for a lot of people yesterday, that's all I know.