5K2K at 120Hz with Mac Mini M4

[Newgoblin49]

Here's what we know about if a 5K2K monitor can run 3840x1620 HiDPI

DELL U4025QW	TB4 DP 1.4 to USB C 8K	Yes Yes
DELL U4021QW	TB4 DP 1.4 to USB C 8K	No No
LG 40WP95C	TB4 DP1.4 to USB C 8K	Unknown No
LG 34BK95U	TB4 DP1.4 to USB C 8K	No No
MSI PS341WU	TB4 DP1.4 to USB C 8K	No No

 

[MxDaviD]

I am asking myself the same question. I am currently running my Dell U4025QW from my Mac Mini M2 Pro at 120HZ. I can run it at 3840x1620 120HZ or native 5K2K, but it is a little bit to small for me. I am looking to upgrade to M4 512/16 but I am not sure if I should go with the M4 Pro because of this or would the standard M4 also run it at 120HZ.

I read somewhere that HDMI on the base M2 was 2.0 but now it is 2.1 on both (M4&M4 Pro) models.

 

[Newgoblin49]

I am asking myself the same question. I am currently running my Dell U4025QW from my Mac Mini M2 Pro at 120HZ. I can run it at 3840x1620 120HZ or native 5K2K, but it is a little bit to small for me. I am looking to upgrade to M4 512/16 but I am not sure if I should go with the M4 Pro because of this or would the standard M4 also run it at 120HZ.

I read somewhere that HDMI on the base M2 was 2.0 but now it is 2.1 on both (M4&M4 Pro) models.

Afaik HDMI has been 2.1 ever since the M2 series.

Can you reiterate what you meant by “ it’s a little too small for me” ?

Also, Do you see any performance drops using the M2 Pro on the U4025Qw ?

 

[MxDaviD]

The base models of the M1 and M2 Macs were limited by HDMI 2.0, supporting only up to 4K at 60Hz. With the M4, Apple has upgraded to HDMI 2.1, allowing for 4K at 120Hz. Additionally, while the base M2 supported only up to 6K at 60Hz, the base M4 models (both iMac and Mac Mini) now support up to 8K.

Based on this, it seems likely that the M4 should also support 5120x2160 or 3840x1620 at 120Hz. Although Apple doesn’t explicitly specify these resolutions at 120Hz, the specs for the M4’s external display support are similar to those of the M2 Pro, which is promising. However, please note this is an educated guess due to the lack of direct confirmation from Apple.

I meant that 5120x2160 (native 5K2K) makes everything too small for me, so I use 3840x1620 which I think is great.

 

[Newgoblin49]

The base models of the M1 and M2 Macs were limited by HDMI 2.0, supporting only up to 4K at 60Hz. With the M4, Apple has upgraded to HDMI 2.1, allowing for 4K at 120Hz. Additionally, while the base M2 supported only up to 6K at 60Hz, the base M4 models (both iMac and Mac Mini) now support up to 8K.

Based on this, it seems likely that the M4 should also support 5120x2160 or 3840x1620 at 120Hz. Although Apple doesn’t explicitly specify these resolutions at 120Hz, the specs for the M4’s external display support are similar to those of the M2 Pro, which is promising. However, please note this is an educated guess due to the lack of direct confirmation from Apple.

I meant that 5120x2160 (native 5K2K) makes everything too small for me, so I use 3840x1620 which I think is great.

I see , may I understand what’s your reason for upgrading , how was the performance of M2 Pro with U4025Qw ?

 

[MxDaviD]

My M2 Pro is out of warranty, and I think a smaller form factor with front-facing USB-C ports would be amazing. I originally chose the M2 Pro because I got a good deal and wanted 5K2K 120Hz support, even though I don’t actually need all that power. If the upcoming M4 model (512GB storage, 16GB RAM) can support 120Hz on my Dell monitor, it would be perfect for me. That setup would more than meet my needs for light video editing and casual use.

Pairing the M2 Pro with the Dell U4025QW has been incredible. Before settling on this monitor, I tried three others—the Samsung G8 OLED, LG 32GS95UE, and BenQ PD3205U—partly because I saw some concerns on Reddit about the U4025QW’s 120Hz support. But after taking the plunge, buying it turned out to be one of the best decisions I’ve made! This monitor is fantastic, and I have zero complaints.

 

[statler]

I'm in the same boat. Looking at an M4 Pro mini for music production. I want a lot of screen real estate but my eyes are also starting to turn on me. The Dell looks good but it's expensive. Any other 5K2K options to consider?

 

[ufgatorvet]

My M2 Pro is out of warranty, and I think a smaller form factor with front-facing USB-C ports would be amazing. I originally chose the M2 Pro because I got a good deal and wanted 5K2K 120Hz support, even though I don’t actually need all that power. If the upcoming M4 model (512GB storage, 16GB RAM) can support 120Hz on my Dell monitor, it would be perfect for me. That setup would more than meet my needs for light video editing and casual use.

Pairing the M2 Pro with the Dell U4025QW has been incredible. Before settling on this monitor, I tried three others—the Samsung G8 OLED, LG 32GS95UE, and BenQ PD3205U—partly because I saw some concerns on Reddit about the U4025QW’s 120Hz support. But after taking the plunge, buying it turned out to be one of the best decisions I’ve made! This monitor is fantastic, and I have zero complaints.

I am not familiar with the Dell U4025QW so I looked at it on the Dell website.

Would there be any concerns with the Thunderbolt 4 support on the monitor but the new MM4 Pro having TB5? Not a techie, so curious.

 

[Newgoblin49]

I'm in the same boat. Looking at an M4 Pro mini for music production. I want a lot of screen real estate but my eyes are also starting to turn on me. The Dell looks good but it's expensive. Any other 5K2K options to consider?

40WP95C-W

 

[Newgoblin49]

I am not familiar with the Dell U4025QW so I looked at it on the Dell website.

Would there be any concerns with the Thunderbolt 4 support on the monitor but the new MM4 Pro having TB5? Not a techie, so curious.

TB is backwards compatible

 

[betabeta]

The base models of the M1 and M2 Macs were limited by HDMI 2.0, supporting only up to 4K at 60Hz. With the M4, Apple has upgraded to HDMI 2.1, allowing for 4K at 120Hz. Additionally, while the base M2 supported only up to 6K at 60Hz, the base M4 models (both iMac and Mac Mini) now support up to 8K.

Based on this, it seems likely that the M4 should also support 5120x2160 or 3840x1620 at 120Hz. Although Apple doesn’t explicitly specify these resolutions at 120Hz, the specs for the M4’s external display support are similar to those of the M2 Pro, which is promising. However, please note this is an educated guess due to the lack of direct confirmation from Apple.

I meant that 5120x2160 (native 5K2K) makes everything too small for me, so I use 3840x1620 which I think is great.

I hope not, but what if Apple is just blocking 5K 120hz support on the new Mini because they are coming out with a new 120hz monitor but now they don't want that 5K 120hz support and have people just go buy the Dell or another. Or far worse the new Mini will not do 5K 120hz but the new Studio in the summer will. So they will do a big Pro Motion roll out but you need to upgrade to the Studio. Apple likes to do that kind of upgrade marketing. I hope the new Mini does 5k at the 120hz, but I'm not convinced at all.

 

[betabeta]

TB is backwards compatible

But that means the Dell monitor will go up to TB 4 bandwidth right? not TB 5 bandwidth and hence the Dell might not do 5k 120hz, 4k yes, 5k probably not. Still up to Apple if they allow that output on the new Mini, I know the M4 Pro along with the TB 5 could do it, they are allowing 4k at 240hz.

The LG 40WP95C-W is 72hz I think, still nice if you don't need 120hz. I just wish Apple would come out with a few 120hz monitors soon.

 

[Newgoblin49]

But that means the Dell monitor will go up to TB 4 bandwidth right? not TB 5 bandwidth and hence the Dell might not do 5k 120hz, 4k yes, 5k probably not. Still up to Apple if they allow that output on the new Mini, I know the M4 Pro along with the TB 5 could do it, they are allowing 4k at 240hz.

The LG 40WP95C-W is 72hz I think, still nice if you don't need 120hz. I just wish Apple would come out with a few 120hz monitors soon.

The dell is confirmed to output 5K2K 120Hz on TB with M2 Pro, Max and M3 Pro , Max

 

[betabeta]

The dell is confirmed to output 5K2K 120Hz on TB with M2 Pro, Max and M3 Pro , Max

This is great news, I can use it for both the new Mac Mini and my Windows box! now it's plastic fantastic time! What idiot spends 5k on a maxed out Mini and 120hz monitor, this idiot does. I hate the Matte finish on the Dell, but it's a good option until Apple puts one out, and who knows maybe I will grow to love it. I really thought Apple was blocking the 120hz at 5k, guess I was wrong, just didn't list it in the specs.

I wonder how much smaller the text is at native 5120x2160 on the Dell compared to my 24" iMac running the scaled 4480×2520.

 

[Newgoblin49]

This is great news, I can use it for both the new Mac Mini and my Windows box! now it's plastic fantastic time! What idiot spends 5k on a maxed out Mini and 120hz monitor, this idiot does. I hate the Matte finish on the Dell, but it's a good option until Apple puts one out, and who knows maybe I will grow to love it. I really thought Apple was blocking the 120hz at 5k, guess I was wrong, just didn't list it in the specs.

I wonder how much smaller the text is at native 5120x2160 on the Dell compared to my 24" iMac running the scaled 4480×2520.

I am not too sure if the Base M4 Mac mini supports 5K2K 120Hz though. As far as the previous Mac chips go its just been limited to the Pro and Max and that too from M2 onwards

 

[KingofGotham1]

Isn't Thunderbolt 4 not capable of 5k 120hz? So I would assume the base M4 Mac mini would not be able to to do it.

 

[Newgoblin49]

Isn't Thunderbolt 4 not capable of 5k 120hz? So I would assume the base M4 Mac mini would not be able to to do it.

I mean people have confirmed they’ve gotten it out of M2 Pro/Max , M3 Pro/Max

 

[KingofGotham1]

I mean people have confirmed they’ve gotten it out of M2 Pro/Max , M3 Pro/Max

Interesting, honestly I dont go into the rabbit hole of video transfer and compression etc but from the very little I thought I knew was you needed more bandwidth than DP 1.4 could support to do true 5k120hz, maybe there are work arounds, maybe there is some sort of compression going on, maybe I dont know anything lol.

Ive been waiting for a 5k@120hz solution from Apple for a long time and I hope its here now

 

[Newgoblin49]

Interesting, honestly I dont go into the rabbit hole of video transfer and compression etc but from the very little I thought I knew was you needed more bandwidth than DP 1.4 could support to do true 5k120hz, maybe there are work arounds, maybe there is some sort of compression going on, maybe I dont know anything lol.

Ive been waiting for a 5k@120hz solution from Apple for a long time and I hope its here now

I’m honestly not well versed in all of this myself. Although, I do frequent the ultra wide subreddit often and I’ve seen a lot of people confirm they’ve gotten 5K2K 120Hz out of M2 Pro/Max ,M3 pro/Max.

Not sure how much difference compression makes though

 

[joevt]

Consider the bandwidth for each mode:

edid-decode -S --cvt w=3840,h=2160,fps=60,rb=2
edid-decode -S --cvt w=5120,h=2160,fps=60,rb=2
edid-decode -S --cvt w=5120,h=2880,fps=60,rb=2
edid-decode -S --cvt w=6016,h=3384,fps=60,rb=2
edid-decode -S --cvt w=5120,h=2160,fps=120,rb=2
edid-decode -S --cvt w=5120,h=2880,fps=120,rb=2
edid-decode -S --cvt w=7680,h=4320,fps=60,rb=2
edid-decode -S --cvt w=3840,h=2160,fps=240,rb=2
edid-decode -S --cvt w=6016,h=3384,fps=120,rb=2
edid-decode -S --cvt w=10240,h=4320,fps=60,rb=2
edid-decode -S --cvt w=7680,h=4320,fps=120,rb=2
edid-decode -S --cvt w=10240,h=4320,fps=120,rb=2

CVT:  3840x2160   59.999954 Hz  16:9    133.320 kHz    522.614000 MHz (RBv2)
CVT:  5120x2160   60.000000 Hz  64:27   133.320 kHz    693.264000 MHz (RBv2)
CVT:  5120x2880   60.000000 Hz  16:9    177.720 kHz    924.144000 MHz (RBv2)
CVT:  6016x3384   59.999974 Hz  16:9    208.860 kHz   1273.210000 MHz (RBv2)
CVT:  5120x2160  120.000000 Hz  64:27   274.440 kHz   1427.088000 MHz (RBv2)
CVT:  5120x2880  120.000000 Hz  16:9    365.880 kHz   1902.576000 MHz (RBv2)
CVT:  7680x4320   59.999977 Hz  16:9    266.580 kHz   2068.660000 MHz (RBv2)
CVT:  3840x2160  239.999979 Hz  16:9    582.960 kHz   2285.203000 MHz (RBv2)
CVT:  6016x3384  119.999971 Hz  16:9    429.840 kHz   2620.304000 MHz (RBv2)
CVT: 10240x4320   59.999987 Hz  64:27   266.580 kHz   2751.105000 MHz (RBv2)
CVT:  7680x4320  119.999983 Hz  16:9    548.760 kHz   4258.377000 MHz (RBv2)
CVT: 10240x4320  119.999996 Hz  64:27   548.760 kHz   5663.203000 MHz (RBv2)

5K2K120 is more than 6K60 but less than 8K60 and 4K240.
5K120 is also less than 8K60 and 4K240 so it should work unless Apple is imposing some other limit.

Using DSC@8bpp, DisplayPort 1.4 can go up to 3240 MHz (minus some amount for FEC or other overhead).
DSC is usually 12bpp but 4K240 via HBR3 x4 requires 10bpp. This has been achieved on an Apple Silicon Mac.
A Lilu/Whatevergreen patch exists for Intel Macs to change DSC from 12bpp.

 

[Newgoblin49]

Consider the bandwidth for each mode:

edid-decode -S --cvt w=3840,h=2160,fps=60,rb=2
edid-decode -S --cvt w=5120,h=2160,fps=60,rb=2
edid-decode -S --cvt w=5120,h=2880,fps=60,rb=2
edid-decode -S --cvt w=6016,h=3384,fps=60,rb=2
edid-decode -S --cvt w=5120,h=2160,fps=120,rb=2
edid-decode -S --cvt w=7680,h=3840,fps=60,rb=2
edid-decode -S --cvt w=5120,h=2880,fps=120,rb=2
edid-decode -S --cvt w=3840,h=2160,fps=240,rb=2
edid-decode -S --cvt w=6016,h=3384,fps=120,rb=2
edid-decode -S --cvt w=7680,h=3840,fps=120,rb=2

CVT:  3840x2160   59.999954 Hz  16:9    133.320 kHz    522.614000 MHz (RBv2)
CVT:  5120x2160   60.000000 Hz  64:27   133.320 kHz    693.264000 MHz (RBv2)
CVT:  5120x2880   60.000000 Hz  16:9    177.720 kHz    924.144000 MHz (RBv2)
CVT:  6016x3384   59.999974 Hz  16:9    208.860 kHz   1273.210000 MHz (RBv2)
CVT:  5120x2160  120.000000 Hz  64:27   274.440 kHz   1427.088000 MHz (RBv2)
CVT:  7680x3840   59.999987 Hz   2:1    236.940 kHz   1838.654000 MHz (RBv2)
CVT:  5120x2880  120.000000 Hz  16:9    365.880 kHz   1902.576000 MHz (RBv2)
CVT:  3840x2160  239.999979 Hz  16:9    582.960 kHz   2285.203000 MHz (RBv2)
CVT:  6016x3384  119.999971 Hz  16:9    429.840 kHz   2620.304000 MHz (RBv2)
CVT:  7680x3840  120.000000 Hz   2:1    487.800 kHz   3785.328000 MHz (RBv2)

5K2K120 is more than 6K60 but less than 8K60 or 4K240.
5K120 is also less than 4K240 so it should work unless Apple is imposing some other limit.

Using DSC@8bpp, DisplayPort 1.4 can go up to 3240 MHz (minus some amount for FEC or other overhead).
DSC is usually 12bpp but 4K240 via HBR3 x4 requires 10bpp. This has been achieved on an Apple Silicon Mac.
A Lilu/Whatevergreen patch exists for Intel Macs to change DSC from 12bpp.

Thank you so much, This is the most insightful comment I've read on this.

Do you think threw will be any performance degradation using 5K2K120Hz Ultrawide on an M4. I've see many users comment that they've gotten it on M2 Pro/Max and M3 Pro/Max. yet no one has commented on the performance they've achieved.

 

[Chancha]

There are more considerations other than I/O bandwidth alone. With M1 for instance, I remember the frame buffer had a 10000 pixel width ceiling limit, this meant a 5120 x 2160 display even if you clock it down to 30Hz or less, you couldn't get a retina x 2 frame out of it (10240 pixel width), which is required if you do any non-integer UI scaling in macOS display settings. I think with M2 and M3 the pixel width limit was lifted, but each frame still has a certain bandwidth limit that has not much to do with the I/O and cabling, since this limit is on chip.

 

[joevt]

Do you think threw will be any performance degradation using 5K2K120Hz Ultrawide on an M4. I've see many users comment that they've gotten it on M2 Pro/Max and M3 Pro/Max. yet no one has commented on the performance they've achieved.

I don't have any info on how pixel clock affects performance of the CPU.
If you're just watching a movie, then you don't need the CPU to do anything else.
A game will be slower the more pixels it needs to render. But if it's rendering a fixed number of pixels and then scaling them up to the display, then that's a different issue.
More pixels might mean higher CPU temperatures which could affect performance?

 

[Newgoblin49]

I don't have any info on how pixel clock affects performance of the CPU.
If you're just watching a movie, then you don't need the CPU to do anything else.
A game will be slower the more pixels it needs to render. But if it's rendering a fixed number of pixels and then scaling them up to the display, then that's a different issue.
More pixels might mean higher CPU temperatures which could affect performance?

I was not looking at along those lines. Doesn’t integer scaling take a toll on the system ? Wouldn’t that impact overall performance when you’re using a productivity app ?

 

[MrGimper]

It's a shame they don't list the "modes" that are supported. I just want to know if the M4 with 10 core GPU would support 2x 3840x2160 screens @120 or slightly higher.