6-core price?

[snouter]

Most people complaining about price are talking about the single processor model, which is "over priced".

Which is why people always compare them to consumer i7 prices.

EEC ram? I've never had it and my videos compress, my 3d models render, my DVDs burn, my Photoshop and Illustrator files work fine. It's a technical advantage that I'd probably want in my server, but don't care about as much, if at all in my workstation.

Any other Xeon "advantage" in a single CPU set-up? No.

Speaking in terms of PERFORMANCE, the single processor models are twice as much due to this i7 v. Xeon issue, and this is SOLEY because Apple choose to go Xeon for these models.

The desktop is dead for most folks, sure, but I have never had an Intel based Mac Pro. My last Apple Desktop was a dual G5 2.0GHz. I've moved my heavy rendering and compressing to my Windows desktops and only use Macs on the laptop side now.

I'm interested in the new single CPU 6 core, but am furious about the 4 ram slots and if the price is truly well above $3500, which it will be since the first thing I'd need to do with the Mac Pro is throw the 3GB of ram in the trash and put all new ram in there, then I'll probably just toss a 980x in my current $1250 i7 12GB ram Windows 7 based build and call it a day.

Why do the ram slots matter so much? Because I'd rather get 12GB or 16GB of ram using the cheaper 2GB sticks. Apple would be forcing me to use 4GB sticks to get above 8GB of RAM.

All we've ever asked for in this Intel Mac Pro world is a $1999 model with 6 or 8 ram slots. The single CPU model comes in the same huge case. Even at $1999 there is PLENTY of profit margin in there for Apple if they would just base the single CPU models on the i7 parts.

I'd love to have a Mac Pro, but have largely reworked my workflow around Mac laptops with Windows computers doing the heavy lifting for rendering and compressing. Looks like that was a wise decision on my part. I'm glad I'm not one of those people who can't "bear the thought" of using a Windows computer, even though Windows 2000 Pro, Windows XP and now Windows 7 have all been fine, stable operating systems. Vista was a bit of dog, but I even give M$ credit for cutting their losses and just dropping it as fast as they could.

 

[linuxcooldude]

why do fan-boys always keep wanking about how good and fine the mac pro is on the inside/outside...slicing your hand on the inside of a DELL machine, common man, keep it serious will ya, I'm not saying you couldn't slice your hand on a DELL, but then again you could also slice your hand on a piece of paper. And as if the inside of the mac pro case is a justification for the outrageous pricing! MacPro's are hilariously overpriced, no mater how much fan-boys try and look for lame excuses. point blank.

To me case design is a big part of the Mac Pro. Flimsy sheet metal & Plastic vs Aircraft aluminum built like a tank. Remember one time had to do a ram upgrade in a conventional PC. With the size, location & all the wire cables it took me 25 minutes to replace two sticks or ram that should of taken less then 5 minutes.

With less cabling you get better airflow for cooling. A very well designed case.

All we've ever asked for in this Intel Mac Pro world is a $1999 model with 6 ram slots. Even at $1999 there is PLENTY of profit margin in there for Apple if they would just base the single CPU models on the i7 parts.

Your trying to get a professional grade workstation at PC desktop prices...that will probably never happen. I hope they never cheapen the Mac Pro only to justify the value market. Will always be a compromise somewhere on lowering the price, the features and quality in the end will get effected. Thats why they have other systems to target other markets.

 

[snouter]

Well then.... nevermind haha. Thats still there just incase people were wondering about DP systems, which are definitely useful for people who need the CPU power.

Yeah, the DP forces you to go with the Xeon, and Intel has them priced very very high at the moment.

 

[Umbongo]

Which is why people always compare them to consumer i7 prices.

EEC ram? I've never had it and my videos compress, my 3d models render, my DVDs burn, my Photoshop and Illustrator files work fine. It's a technical advantage that I'd probably want in my server, but don't care about as much, if at all in my workstation.

Any other Xeon "advantage" in a single CPU set-up? No.

Speaking in terms of PERFORMANCE, the single processor models are twice as much due to this i7 v. Xeon issue, and this is SOLEY because Apple choose to go Xeon for these models.

Has nothing to do with them using Xeons and ECC memory. The 3000 series Xeons Apple have the same price same as Core i7 parts do at the same speed and ECC memory is under $10/GB more than non-ECC at retail pricing.

 

[strausd]

Yeah, the DP forces you to go with the Xeon, and Intel has them priced very very high at the moment.

Ya they definitely are quite pricey. But I don't see the prices drop very much. Even the 5500s are still pricey and they are outdated now.

As for i7s in SP MP, I agree, they should have done that. Then more people would go for it. But question: don't server grade CPUs generally last longer? If not, Apple made the wrong decision, if so, then it makes sense in my eyes. And if they did the i7s in the SP MP, then there would be a bigger gap between SP and DP configs, just a thought.

 

[snouter]

Has nothing to do with them using Xeons and ECC memory. The 3000 series Xeons Apple have the same price same as Core i7 parts do at the same speed and ECC memory is under $10/GB more than non-ECC at retail pricing.

So why does the single CPU 2.8GHz quad core start at $2499?

Most people say:

1. It's a workstation!
2. It's a workstation using server grade components!
3. It has OS X!

Other people say:

1. Meh.
2. Bah.
3. Pfft.

And regardless, you are still stuck with the 4 ram slots which makes getting more than 8GB of ram in the single CPU model rather costly.

 

[snouter]

But question: don't server grade CPUs generally last longer?

No.

And at 50% less cost, I would probably not even care.

And if they did the i7s in the SP MP, then there would be a bigger gap between SP and DP configs, just a thought.

If you need a DP, you need a DP.

My shop/side business is small enough where I can get away with a SP quad or six core. If all I did was model, render, compress and mix all day long for money, then the price of DP would not really be an issue and those people are not looking at the SP models anyhow.

iMac is just not an option for me for a lot of reasons, so even though I could get an i7 running OS X for $2200 in an iMac form factor, it's not gonna happen.

 

[Umbongo]

So why does the single CPU 2.8GHz quad core start at $2499?

Because people will pay it. I guess they decided in 2009 that they could continue selling $2,499 Mac Pros regardless of the retail component pricing of that hardware was or how much other companies charged for the same sort of thing.

 

[the editor]

To me case design is a big part of the Mac Pro. Flimsy sheet metal & Plastic vs Aircraft aluminum built like a tank. Remember one time had to do a ram upgrade in a conventional PC. With the size, location & all the wire cables it took me 25 minutes to replace two sticks or ram that should of taken less then 5 minutes.

With less cabling you get better airflow for cooling. A very well designed case.



Your trying to get a professional grade workstation at PC desktop prices...that will probably never happen. I hope they never cheapen the Mac Pro only to justify the value market. Will always be a compromise somewhere on lowering the price, the features and quality in the end will get effected. Thats why they have other systems to target other markets.

here's the problem - the MacPro can't really be considered a "professional" grade workstation -

a professional workstation you say: consumer/gaming graphics card, no updates for over a year, the still not released 2010 update is already outdated from a price and performance perspective, no eSATA, one firewire bus...and the list goes on...

nobody argues the fact that they are good running, nice looking machines, but just because it has the name "pro" slapped on them doesn't make them pro computers, this is where Apple is fooling the world. Oooo look its a "pro" machine" ...yeah wright.

if anything, MacPro's are a little above average computers, nothing more nothing less...very expensive average computers

 

[linuxcooldude]

Sorry to disagree, but I do. They are professional grade workstations. While I would never buy a PC Windows workstation, do to the fact I just don't care for the operating system, I would never call them unprofessional.

You have to decide for your self what type of workstation/computer is best for you, based on price, function, features ect.

If you don't like the Mac Pro, plenty other workstations/PC/Computers out there, you just have not found the right one for you perhaps.

Slapping in all the latest bell & whistles does not necessarily make it a professional workstation either.

 

[brentsg]

why do fan-boys always keep wanking about how good and fine the mac pro is on the inside/outside...slicing your hand on the inside of a DELL machine, common man, keep it serious will ya, I'm not saying you couldn't slice your hand on a DELL, but then again you could also slice your hand on a piece of paper. And as if the inside of the mac pro case is a justification for the outrageous pricing! MacPro's are hilariously overpriced, no mater how much fan-boys try and look for lame excuses. point blank.

I'm keeping it serious. It was junk.

Fanboy? I don't even own a Mac Pro. I built an i7 980x because the Mac Pro isn't aimed at me, and I don't want an iMac.

Seriously every piece of metal inside was so thin and sharp that you had to use extreme caution when working inside. It was nothing like any of the quality cases I've used for my builds. Plus, the last mass-produced PC I bought was a Micron, and it in fact did have a dried pool of blood inside from whoever assembled it.. just from this very reason.

Seriously, the insides DO make a difference. When you buy a Dell or equivalent, you are buying a brand name CPU and video card... that's it. Every single other component is the cheapest part they can source as a commodity. This includes the RAM and motherboard, all the way down to the keyboard and mouse. Then they sell the PC at a razor thin margin even after factoring in all the revenue from bloatware that is pre-installed. People buy Macs to get away from that mentality, so you can't expect Apple to drop down to that type of business operation to compete.

So I take it that you feel that comparing the Mac Pro to a Dell i7 is a solid comparison? Now you're taking this concept above, and further stacking the deck with cost disparity between cheap RAM and quality ECC RAM, and a regular i7 vs. a Xeon.

 

[nanofrog]

So why does the single CPU 2.8GHz quad core start at $2499?

1. Apple's greedy.
2. Unfortunately, people are paying it.

But from a production cost POV, it's no different than the i7-9xx part of the same clock speed and core count (LGA1366 of course), as the same board and other components will work with either part series. The technical difference is ECC (between the processors). That's it. Other differences would depend on the actual boards being compared, but are a result of the design choices made (target position in the marketplace).

And regardless, you are still stuck with the 4 ram slots which makes getting more than 8GB of ram in the single CPU model rather costly.

Yes, but this particular issue is due to design choices made by Apple (daughterboard configuration), as the other SP LGA1366 boards I can think of off the top of my head, all come with 6x DIMM slots (and the architecture is actually capable of 9x DIMM's per CPU; though this is only implemented on some server boards using the E-ATX/SSI EEB board specifications, which are physically larger than what SP boards are using).

 

[linuxcooldude]

Seriously, the insides DO make a difference. When you buy a Dell or equivalent, you are buying a brand name CPU and video card... that's it. Every single other component is the cheapest part they can source as a commodity. This includes the RAM and motherboard, all the way down to the keyboard and mouse. Then they sell the PC at a razor thin margin even after factoring in all the revenue from bloatware that is pre-installed. People buy Macs to get away from that mentality, so you can't expect Apple to drop down to that type of business operation to compete.

Even on the good quality name brand PC's it does seem they skimp out a bit on the case and power supply. Especially in the past, often the power supplies were the first to go bad. At least now you can buy third party cases and really good power supplies, but of course a bit more expensive.

But to be fair have not looked at the better quality PC to more evaluate the case/supply issue as it probably change hopefully.

Always hates the third party bloat software they installed, so agree in that re-guard. Have to hunt down what program that would auto start on every reboot using up a lot of memory. Most of which was trial-ware. But now not an issue as I would install Linux on all my PC computers now.

 

[brentsg]

Even on the good quality name brand PC's it does seem they skimp out a bit on the case and power supply. Especially in the past, often the power supplies were the first to go bad. At least now you can buy third party cases and really good power supplies, but of course a bit more expensive.

Yeah it's too bad. And it's not just the case and power supply either. The RAM will be cheap stuff with terribly latency and a super thin PCB. Crappy fans.. optical drive, etc.

It often even extends to the video card. It's pretty typical to get an "ATI 4870" included with a PC, but it'll be a cheaper custom job. They will often skimp on the RAM, including either a small quantity.. or simply the "retail" quantity but running at a lower speed. I can't say I've personally seen an OEM videocard running with the GPU clocked lower than retail but I'd be willing to bet it's done. I don't mean to pick on ATI here as it's just an example. Bottom line is that the OEM video cards aren't necessarily the same as the retail counterparts.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Depends what price range we are talking about. Sure the emachine $400.00-$800.00 price range perhaps. But what about the $1500 to workstation class ones? Most of the ones I see they sell at Bestbuy electronic stores are the cheap ones. Simply because they sell the most of them.

If I had a chance to see a good quality PC machine up close, can probably make a better determination of quality.

Seems the good quality ones are mostly through the internet, but can't get a good determination that way.

 

[nanofrog]

Even on the good quality name brand PC's it does seem they skimp out a bit on the case and power supply. Especially in the past, often the power supplies were the first to go bad. At least now you can buy third party cases and really good power supplies, but of course a bit more expensive.

But to be fair have not looked at the better quality PC to more evaluate the case/supply issue as it probably change hopefully.

Always hates the third party bloat software they installed, so agree in that re-guard. Have to hunt down what program that would auto start on every reboot using up a lot of memory. Most of which was trial-ware. But now not an issue as I would install Linux on all my PC computers now.

Definitely the case with consumer products.

But the enterprise grade gear is different. Better parts, though there's only so far they're willing to go on things like PSU's (Apple suffers from the same issues, as this is an area vendors do look at to cut costs). Boards however, are usually built with better components in areas such as Voltage Regulators, as they're expected to be in a 24/7/365 operational environment. No crap-ware either. But you're paying for this too, as they're not nearly as cheap as the consumer systems.

Where problems can (and do) occur, is with ODM's (companies that do the actual design, manufacture, and final assembly). The vendor has no control over the design, parts used (down to the actual capacitors, resistors and semiconductors) on the board, or QC in the final assembly stages. This is another reason why the consumer gear in particular, has more issues than the enterprise gear (smaller parts budgets to make the target MSRP).

 

[PenguinMac]

My Dell XPS 8000 i7 machine (see sig) runs beautifully fast and stable, and I've been very happy with it. And you don't need Linux to get rid of the bloatware, just re-install Windows when you get the PC and you've wiped out any extra software. BUT the power supply is very small (300 watts, barely enough for an NVidia 240 card but nothing larger), and the case is very cheap (drives screw directly onto the case frame, for example) and I've already stripped one of the screws after opening it 6 times for upgrades. So as long as you're not a power user and will never deal with upgrades, you'll be happy and will never notice the poor build quality. Now whether that's worth $1,500 more for a Mac Pro is questionable, and I'm getting a Mac Pro for many other reasons that have nothing to do with the Dell's quality, but it might be a factor for some people.

 

[OddThomas]

Since some of you guys love the MP box so much...

i post this as an option... it's sexy.

 

[brentsg]

i post this as an option... it's sexy.

I'd like that about as much as a MP case, but it's yet another example of "you get what you pay for".

 

[OddThomas]

I'd like that about as much as a MP case, but it's yet another example of "you get what you pay for".

well yes it's expensive.. $800 for the case only.

 

[rajbonham]

well yes it's expensive.. $800 for the case only.

This relates to the thread how?

 

[OddThomas]

This relates to the thread how?

it doesn't and i am sorry.. i am just "pushing buttons"

 

[Vylen]

I've managed to stab myself on part of a computer case - deep but not deep enough to require stitches. Did have me feeling woozy from the pain.

But it was sorta my fault and it's not like the computer case was out to kill me

I put a PCI card in at a bad angle it was hard to get out - required a lot of force. Which of course, as it came out made me stab my hand against the metal bracket of a neighbouring card. I bet there's no problems like that with a Mac Pro

 

[OddThomas]

I've managed to stab myself on part of a computer case - deep but not deep enough to require stitches. Did have me feeling woozy from the pain.

But it was sorta my fault and it's not like the computer case was out to kill me

I put a PCI card in at a bad angle it was hard to get out - required a lot of force. Which of course, as it came out made me stab my hand against the metal bracket of a neighbouring card. I bet there's no problems like that with a Mac Pro

Ha-Ha you are correct, the MP has airbags that would deploy and protect you.

 

[johnnymg]

Anyone know if Apple will release option pricing before the 9th?

cheers
JohnG