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New York Plane Crash -- 50 Dead

mkrishnan

mkrishnan

Moderator emeritus
Original poster
Jan 9, 2004
29,776
15
Grand Rapids, MI, USA
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/nyregion/13crash.html?hp

A flight out of Newark crashed into a home, killing all passengers / crew and also a person in the home into which it crashed...

The last fatal crash involving a scheduled carrier in the United States was a ComAir regional jet in Lexington, Ky., in August 2006. The crew picked a too-short runway for takeoff; 47 passengers and 2 of the 3 crew members were killed.
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Ironically and sadly, another recent NYT article discussing the rate of fatalities in emergency helicopter medical transportation ("lifeflighting") noted how high the rate of accidents is in comparison to the near elimination of commercial airplane fatalities.

The crash comes on the heels of the heavily reported emergency landing of a plane in the Hudson River earlier this year. And just this week also, a Southwest airplane had an engine catch on fire and was forced to make an emergency landing -- I met someone in Atlanta at a conference who apparently was on that flight.

I myself was on an airplane that required a (very mild) evasive maneuver this last week because it was assigned to occupied airspace. That was a total non-issue, and there was no danger, but at the same time, I can't remember the last time that happened while I was on a plane.

I don't know if this thread is suited for the PRSI or here, but...

I wanted to express my condolences to everyone who has been affected by this tragedy. And also wonder... what has changed, and why has there been a sudden spike in air traffic issues?
 
mkrishnan said:
And also wonder... what has changed, and why has there been a sudden spike in air traffic issues?
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With regard to the evasive maneuver - you might be able to blame the FAA for that kind of thing. They've made being an air traffic controller pretty miserable. Most locations are understaffed, the experienced guys are retiring early, and the new contract for the guys coming in is so crummy that they're not exactly attracting the best talent anymore.

On the whole ATC in the U.S. is very good, but I've definitely noticed a decline in quality over the years. To be fair to ATC, what you experienced might not have been their fault - there are many situations where the responsibility of separation falls on the shoulders of the pilots.

Nonetheless, the FAA is certainly not doing ATC any favors. I'm not going to say that it's not safe or anything, but it's certainly not going in the right direction, IMO.
 
dmr727 said:
On the whole ATC in the U.S. is very good, but I've definitely noticed a decline in quality over the years.
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Yeah, don't get me wrong -- I don't really see evidence so far to blame these problems on personal irresponsibility. Particularly, just the small sampling of various problems I mentioned happened each of them to different airlines. Including Southwest, whom I generally adore. So I think there are some real systemic issues that need to be analyzed before the US aviation safety record experiences further decline.
 
From what I've read online, accident investigators noted an unusual amount of wing icing on the remains of the wing they found at the crash site. Given the really cold and poor weather last night, it's not surprising the accident happened in the first place. :(
 
She probably trimmed to the acceptable stall speed for that aircraft, then all hell broke loose. Something like a wind-sheer, but with icing.

Sad. :(
 
so sad. my thoughts go out to the families affected by this.
does seem to be a rash of accidents lately. weird.
 
This was about 10 miles from my home, but I went to bed early and didn't hear about it until this morning. My school's valedictorian lost her father on board.
 
There's been an effort for a while to go to the next gen traffic control system. But, it's tough to get it funded and the airlines can't pony up because they have no money. One of the options they've been trying to force is to get the general aviation community to pay for it -- which is crap.

In this case, I hadn't heard about the flight crew "picking too short of a runway". I'd be surprised if that ends up being the cause. I suspect based on pure conjecture and some experience that icing was the issue. I have not read much on the subject...

Icing is a major problem that this plane would have been able to handle easily if everything was in working order.

In any case, this is a sad day for aviation and the people involved :(
 
Mr. Giver '94 said:
Where was Sully when they needed him??? :confused:

This is very sad though...:(
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He was extremely lucky that they had a path near the Hudson - and I can imagine that it might have been a different scenario had it been night time. Of course his brain worked at lightning speed to make that decision - which is what saved everyone.

I have always noticed that plane crashes happen together - one crash will be followed by a couple of crashes within a few weeks - and then there will be relative calm for a few years. Weird coincidence.

Terrible for the families.. I can't imagine going to the airport, in excitement to receive a friend/family member and hearing that you will never see them again. :(
 
MooneyFlyer said:
Icing is a major problem that this plane would have been able to handle easily if everything was in working order.
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It seems to be a preliminary candidate, with a lot of info still to be gathered. It's interesting to note that there's so much variability in terms of the view of proper management of icing on these small airplanes.

Link

Steve Chealander, spokesman for the National Transportation Safety Board, said that recovering the remains could take several days. "We're very sensitive to the families," he said.

Investigators have been poring over instrument data and have listened to the last words of the doomed pilot and co-pilot of a commuter plane in the hopes of determining whether ice on its wings caused the fiery crash that took 50 lives.

Officials say the crew of the Continental Connection flight remarked upon significant ice buildup on the wings and windshield shortly before the aircraft pitched violently and slammed into a house.

Ice on the wings can interfere catastrophically with an aircraft's handling and has been blamed for a number of major air disasters over the years, but officials said they had drawn no conclusions as to the cause of Thursday night's crash.

Chealander said early Saturday that the icing on the plane that was noted by the pilot is just one of several things they are looking at.

He said the NTSB has been pressing for more regulations to improve deicing. "We don't like the progress that's taken place right now," Chealander said. "It's something that requires constant focus."

He said the NTSB had made recommendations "for several years."

The aircraft, bound to Buffalo from Newark, N.J., went down in light snow and mist — ideal icing conditions — about six miles short of the airport, plunging nose-first through the roof of a house in the suburb of Clarence.

...

Chealander said at an afternoon news conference that the crew of the twin-engine turboprop discussed "significant ice buildup" on the windshield and the leading edge of the wings at an altitude of around 11,000 feet as the plane was coming in for a landing.

The flight data recorder indicated the plane's de-icing equipment was in the "on" position, but Chealander would not say whether the equipment was functioning.

The landing gear was lowered one minute before the end of the flight at an altitude of more than 2,000 feet, and 20 seconds later the wing flaps were set to slow the plane down, after which the aircraft went through "severe pitch and roll," Chealander said.

The crew raised the landing gear at the last moment, just before the recording ran out. No mayday call came from the pilot.
...

In general, smaller planes like the Dash 8, which uses a system of pneumatic de-icing boots, are more susceptible to ice buildup than larger commuter planes that use a system to warm the wings. The boots, a rubber membrane stretched over the surface, are filled with compressed air to crack any ice that builds up.

A similar turboprop jet crash 15 years ago in Indiana was caused by ice, and after that the NTSB recommended more aggressively using pneumatic de-icing boots. But the FAA has not adopted the recommendation. It remains on the NTSB's list of most-wanted safety improvements.
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From the description of the news article it appears the Dash 8-Q400 suffered the same fate that befell an ATR-72 turboprop back in 1994--the wing had too much ice buildup and any movement of the wing surfaces causes a serious aerodynamic upset, causing the plane to go out of control.

It should be noted that makes this situation worse is that both the Dash 8-Q400 and ATR72 are T-tail designs, which means the horizontal stabilizers are on top of the vertical tail. This makes the plane VERY susceptible to a condition called deep stall, where the plane violently goes out of control during a high angle of attack stall and the horizontal tail surfaces loses effectiveness, with little to no chance of recovery. The British found this out the hard way when a BAC 111 prototype crashed during a test flight at a high angle of attack, forcing BAC to install a "stick shaker" to warn the pilot of such a condition. That's why I've never heard of a BAe 748 or ATP or a Saab 340 or 2000 go into such a violent stall, given the mounting of the horizontal tail surfaces on the rear of the fuselage of the airplane on these commuter plane models.
 
mkrishnan said:
It seems to be a preliminary candidate, with a lot of info still to be gathered. It's interesting to note that there's so much variability in terms of the view of proper management of icing on these small airplanes.
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Yep, it's complicated by the fact that icing isn't particularly predictable. There are rules of thumb about when it can occur and what to do when there's a lot of ice on the airframe (if I knew I was carrying a substantial amount of ice, the last thing I'd do is touch the flaps), but it can vary greatly in the type of ice that forms as well as how fast it accumulates.

The Q400, as MooneyFlier noted, should be able to handle icing reasonably well. There are a lot of variables here that could have caused this crash, and as always there'll be lots of speculation until the NTSB releases its findings.

If I had to *guess*, I'd say that the tail is what stalled, not the wing. How that much ice got on the airframe - who knows?
 
That's about an hour or so from my house.. Somehow it just seems different being close to home.
 
sushi said:
To add, working a crash site is definitely not a pleasant experience -- especially if you know the some of the individuals involved.
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Wow - you say that as if you know from experience. That must be very tough.
 
JCastro said:
Thanks for the follow up post. Still a sad story!
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Definitely.

Unfortunately, not all training programs are the same.

Years ago, a China Airlines plane crashed in Nagoya Japan. As I understand, the cause of the crash was pilot error. The PIC made a pre-solo mistake. Really sad.
 
It'll be a cold day in hell before I get on a Colgan plane, if that's the caliber of pilots they're hiring.

I don't even know if I'd ever get on a Continental plane after this. I know it wasn't their pilots or plane, but still, they should probably have paid more attention to Colgan's training program, or lack thereof. Plus, any airline who thinks it's a good idea to fly 757s across the Atlantic (which, on several occasions has resulted in the westbound flight needing to land in Canada to refuel since the 757s don't have the range to cross the Atlantic and make it to EWR if they encounter a strong headwing) isn't any carrier I want to fly on.
 
yg17 said:
It'll be a cold day in hell before I get on a Colgan plane, if that's the caliber of pilots they're hiring.

I don't even know if I'd ever get on a Continental plane after this. I know it wasn't their pilots or plane, but still, they should probably have paid more attention to Colgan's training program, or lack thereof. Plus, any airline who thinks it's a good idea to fly 757s across the Atlantic (which, on several occasions has resulted in the westbound flight needing to land in Canada to refuel since the 757s don't have the range to cross the Atlantic and make it to EWR if they encounter a strong headwing) isn't any carrier I want to fly on.
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I would expand that to industry wide. From what I seen on TV this lack of training on the regional side is very VERY typical. I willing to bet all the major careers are that way.
 
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