New York Plane Crash -- 50 Dead

[CMillerERAU]

As a fellow airline pilot I'd like to weigh in on this topic in the non-aviation forums from time to time.

Personally, I blame what happened on that flight squarely with the flying public. For years people have shown that they want the cheapest ticket no matter what. In the end respectable companies have gone bust while low cost carriers and regional airlines have grown. Legacy airlines such as US Air, American, United, and Continental have expanded contract regionals while pushing their own fleets into less-competitive international routes.

Colgan, along with the rest of these contract carriers, account for 50% of domestic flying in the United States. They compete ferociously with each other for flying and often take it out on their employees. If one company's pilots demand better work rules and pay, then they lose the next flying bid for being too expensive. Colgan is by far one of the worst I've seen in the industry and its sad when they win flying over respectable regionals like my former employer ExpressJet.

While I was at XJT I was treated like a human being (relatively, I was a king compared to many pilots at other companies) but sadly Continental, in an attempt to push costs low, threatened to take away all of our flying with them if we did not match the "industry standard" pay. The company is still sorting that out and I fear that yet another decent place to work as a pilot has been pushed under by the system.

I have no solution to this problem, I wish I did. I encourage anyone interested in what's happening to the airlines to check out some of the aviation boards on the internet. I frequent airlinepilotcentral.com but be warned the debates get a bit heated.

In the meantime, I encourage all of you to think next time you book your $200 trip across the country about what a deal you're getting. For 5 hours you'll be flown in a pressurized, safe, smooth jet aircraft worth about $50M. The crew has made their career taking you from A to B and are most likely, all combined, making a sum of under $150k a year (including flight attendants). In an airplane that burns anywhere from 2,000 to 50,000 gallons of jet fuel at $3.50/gal.

CNBC has a great documentary on American Airlines, I think it sums it up pretty nicely.

 

[dmr727]

^^^ Heh - I've been down in Cabo since last Friday, and I promised myself I wouldn't feed my internet addiction while here, but damn it - a day before I have to head home, you compel me to respond.

I don't think it's fair to place blame on the flying public. They expect the FAA, the airline, and the flight crews to keep them safe. It appears that in this case, they were let down by all three. It doesn't matter what the ticket prices are - they should be able to expect a reasonable baseline of safety. I do agree that the prices are far too low, but the changes have to happen within the industry, and the industry needs to then set the prices accordingly.

I notice that you have ERAU in your screen name, which leads me to believe that you intended to fast track your way into the right seat of a shiny airliner as quickly as possible. Fair enough, but when you got that call from ExpressJet, did you tell them to go screw themselves, given they're offering you a stupidly low $23/hr after you paid close to a quarter mil between your flight training and degree? Of course not, and nor should you be expected to, but until pilots stop taking the jobs, there's never any incentive for them to improve the pay and QOL. And please don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking you - I just think pilots are their own worst enemy when it comes to the working conditions at the regional carriers.

And as a side note, I hate to say it, but the attention span of the media and public is relatively short - they seem to be willing to absorb a crash or two every decade or so. Who remembers Lexington anymore? As long it continues like this, there's no real pressure for airlines to do any more than the minimum necessary to stay legal in the eyes of the FAA.

 

[yg17]

I'm still shocked at what they pay the pilots...that's peanuts. Why do people still become pilots? Do they just love flying? That's the only possible reason I could think of because there are so many more career fields out there fresh out of college where you can make almost 3 times what a pilot makes, work 8-5 and have none of these crappy working conditions.

I read somewhere that the FO on the Buffalo flight had debated calling in sick but decided against it. Why? Because not only would she lose pay for the EWR-BUF flight, she would possibly lose pay for the next several days until the schedule would allow her to fly again (I guess the idea was she'd fly to BUF and then fly BUF to somewhere else, but if she's not in BUF, then she doesn't fly for a few days). Not only that, but she would need a doctor's note or else she'd possibly face being disciplined for calling in, and the cost of the lost pay, plus the doctor visit wasn't worth it. That's complete crap, and something should be done. No one should feel like they can't afford to call in sick. Not only do you make your coworkers sick, in the case of a pilot, you may have hundreds of other lives at risk if you're flying and not feeling well.

And as a side note, I hate to say it, but the attention span of the media and public is relatively short - they seem to be willing to absorb a crash or two every decade or so. Who remembers Lexington anymore? As long it continues like this, there's no real pressure for airlines to do any more than the minimum necessary to stay legal in the eyes of the FAA.

I remember when TWA 800 went down, and they did sensationalize it and dragged it out for months in the media. Obviously, there's a difference between a 747 mysteriously blowing up and a Dash 8 going down in what seems to be a fairly cut and dry case of pilot error, but still, enough is enough already. Yes, we need to keep the airlines on their toes, but if the media kept going on and on about it, they're just going to scare everyone and no one will fly. And even with 800, Lexington and Buffalo, and everything else that's happened, flying is still by far safer than driving; you have a better chance of dying in a car accident on the way to the airport. The 50 people who died in Buffalo could've each died on that same day in individual car accidents across the country, and there wouldn't be a word from the media. Plane crashes, as tragic as they are, sometimes get way too much coverage IMO. The public does need to know about them and know what happened, but I don't think excessive coverage on TV is the answer.

 

[MooneyFlyer]

I'm still shocked at what they pay the pilots...that's peanuts. Why do people still become pilots? Do they just love flying? That's the only possible reason I could think of because there are so many more career fields out there fresh out of college where you can make almost 3 times what a pilot makes, work 8-5 and have none of these crappy working conditions.

As crude as this is -- it's the same reason that men don't get paid for porn... too many people are willing to do it for free. It's not about money in this case. (Why become a musician?)

Also, you've heard people say this about being a tester for video games.

Instructors (young and old), quite literally, will do anything to build up time to get their airline jobs. They will give instruction for [nearly] free, ride right seat in a charter to get SIC time, etc. The airlines hire these people for nearly no money and, as an earlier post mentions, are basically forced to give tickets away because the flying public doesn't want to pay more than a $300-400 avg ticket. There is a huge disparity between those entry level jobs and a 777 Captain with 20+ years in.

I've heard, and believe, that prices today are no more than they were 10-20 years (possibly longer) ago despite inflation.

Now, the airlines haven't helped themselves either. Costs have been way out of control and not managed. Unfortunately, some should be allowed to fail. That would start to eliminate the undercutting of fares and force people to run real businesses.

I am also a pilot though only for personal pleasure.

 

[yg17]

As crude as this is -- it's the same reason that men don't get paid for porn... too many people are willing to do it for free. It's not about money in this case. (Why become a musician?)

Also, you've heard people say this about being a tester for video games.

Instructors (young and old), quite literally, will do anything to build up time to get their airline jobs. They will give instruction for [nearly] free, ride right seat in a charter to get SIC time, etc. The airlines hire these people for nearly no money and, as an earlier post mentions, are basically forced to give tickets away because the flying public doesn't want to pay more than a $300-400 avg ticket. There is a huge disparity between those entry level jobs and a 777 Captain with 20+ years in.

I've heard, and believe, that prices today are no more than they were 10-20 years (possibly longer) ago despite inflation.

Now, the airlines haven't helped themselves either. Costs have been way out of control and not managed. Unfortunately, some should be allowed to fail. That would start to eliminate the undercutting of fares and force people to run real businesses.

I am also a pilot though only for personal pleasure.

I don't think ticket cost has a lot to do with it...look at Southwest for example. Their prices are very reasonable, usually the cheapest. They don't charge for the first two checked bags. They don't charge you rediculous fees to change a ticket. They don't charge you all of the other fees the legacy carriers charge. Their customer service is the best in the industry, and I assume they pay their crew pretty well, and they fly 737s, none of the supposedly cheaper to operate regional jets or prop planes. And yet, there still a profitable company.

There may be a lot of reasons airlines are in the situation they're in, but I don't think ticket prices have a lot to do with it.

 

[CMillerERAU]

Ok well for starters to defend myself:

I flight instructed for a few years, even when the airlines were taking everyone with a commercial license, just so I could work at ExpressJet who has some of the best pay and work rules in the regional world. I made sure I was well qualified before jumping in right seat in a RJ so that I woudn't end up like so many of my friends way over their heads flying passengers around.

This Colgan thing has really ticked me off because there are so many misconceptions about the airlines. If the public knew half the stuff that's screwed up about the airlines it would blow their minds. And yes, pretty much the only reason people become pilots is because "its in their blood" and maybe to travel, which is becoming next to impossible.

Anyway, its a frustrating time to be in the industry. I guess most of all I just wish people would show a bit of compassion towards folks who work for the airlines. I have been grilled on my competency more now than ever, when was the last time any of you were asked flat out if you were competent at your job by total strangers?

 

[yg17]

Anyway, its a frustrating time to be in the industry. I guess most of all I just wish people would show a bit of compassion towards folks who work for the airlines. I have been grilled on my competency more now than ever, when was the last time any of you were asked flat out if you were competent at your job by total strangers?

The difference is that if I was incompetent at my job, no one would be hurt. I think it is very fair to question whether our pilots, doctors, etc, are competent.

 

[sushi]

The difference is that if I was incompetent at my job, no one would be hurt. I think it is very fair to question whether our pilots, doctors, etc, are competent.

Agree. We are putting our lives into their hands.

There is the old adage ...

At flight school, what do you call the top student graduate? Pilot.

What do you call the bottom student graduate? Pilot.

Personally, I would rather fly with someone who was towards the top of their class. BTW, you can substitute medical school/doctor, law school/lawyer, etc.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

Agree. We are putting our lives into their hands.

There is the old adage ...

At flight school, what do you call the top student graduate? Pilot.

What do you call the bottom student graduate? Pilot.

Personally, I would rather fly with someone who was towards the top of their class. BTW, you can substitute medical school/doctor, law school/lawyer, etc.

Same could be said about doctors.

For example only 1/2 the doctors graduted in the top 50%.

in medical school, what do you call the top student graduate? Doctor

What do you call the bottom student graduate? Doctor

 

[CMillerERAU]

The difference is that if I was incompetent at my job, no one would be hurt. I think it is very fair to question whether our pilots, doctors, etc, are competent.

I'll take my critiques from the FAA whom determines if I'm qualified to fly. Having a passenger with no idea what he's talking about question me as well as complain because the cokes aren't ice cold is quite different. Anyway I understand everyone's concern but you need to realize that pilots are humans too. We're quite passionate about our work and to be asked to be super human and be paid minimum wage is asking for a lot.

 

[yg17]

I'll take my critiques from the FAA whom determines if I'm qualified to fly. Having a passenger with no idea what he's talking about question me as well as complain because the cokes aren't ice cold is quite different. Anyway I understand everyone's concern but you need to realize that pilots are humans too. We're quite passionate about our work and to be asked to be super human and be paid minimum wage is asking for a lot.

I'm not going to critique anyone's flying capability. The only part of an aircraft I know how to operate is the in seat entertainment. I am in no position to say whether you're a good pilot or a bad pilot. However, I do think it is completely fair to wonder if a pilot has passed all of the FAA requirements and tests, and if they have gotten the required amount of rest before a flight, and if they successfully completed their training. And when I board a plane, I think it is perfectly acceptable to hope that the people in the cockpit are more like Sully and less like Renslow or Shaw.

 

[CMillerERAU]

I'm not going to critique anyone's flying capability. The only part of an aircraft I know how to operate is the in seat entertainment. I am in no position to say whether you're a good pilot or a bad pilot. However, I do think it is completely fair to wonder if a pilot has passed all of the FAA requirements and tests, and if they have gotten the required amount of rest before a flight, and if they successfully completed their training. And when I board a plane, I think it is perfectly acceptable to hope that the people in the cockpit are more like Sully and less like Renslow or Shaw.

Well of course you should feel that everyone operating your aircraft is safe and ready to fly. That's what the FAA was created for! What I'm saying is that its so incredibly annoying how people have no trouble walking up (literally) to me and question my abilities. Its rude! Its like someone walking into your house and telling you what cheap stuff you own, or how tacky you clothes look. Or even better, imagine being an artist and people walking up to you and saying your work is terrible. Even though they might not know what they're talking about or even knowing they're being mean, it hurts.

Anyway, hopefully with all this exposure the FAA will get back to what they were created for, to promote and regulate safe air travel. Pilots love their job, and we love having you all flying with us. But I think its time the flying public cuts us a break too.

 

[yg17]

Well of course you should feel that everyone operating your aircraft is safe and ready to fly. That's what the FAA was created for! What I'm saying is that its so incredibly annoying how people have no trouble walking up (literally) to me and question my abilities. Its rude! Its like someone walking into your house and telling you what cheap stuff you own, or how tacky you clothes look. Or even better, imagine being an artist and people walking up to you and saying your work is terrible. Even though they might not know what they're talking about or even knowing they're being mean, it hurts.

Anyway, hopefully with all this exposure the FAA will get back to what they were created for, to promote and regulate safe air travel. Pilots love their job, and we love having you all flying with us. But I think its time the flying public cuts us a break too.

Well, those people are morons, if you were a terrible pilot, would they expect you to be truthful? "Yes sir, I'm a horrible pilot. This is only my second time in my life flying and we're all going to die." I would never directly question a pilot. What I had originally meant is that I would question whether airlines such as Colgan are actually hiring pilots who meet all FAA regulations, pass their training and get the required rest, etc.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

Well, those people are morons, if you were a terrible pilot, would they expect you to be truthful? "Yes sir, I'm a horrible pilot. This is only my second time in my life flying and we're all going to die." I would never directly question a pilot. What I had originally meant is that I would question whether airlines such as Colgan are actually hiring pilots who meet all FAA regulations, pass their training and get the required rest, etc.

chance are yes they are.

From what I been told by my friend the FAA is very strict with their requirements and I highly doute an airline would try to cheat the rules.

 

[dmr727]

Ok well for starters to defend myself:

I flight instructed for a few years, even when the airlines were taking everyone with a commercial license, just so I could work at ExpressJet who has some of the best pay and work rules in the regional world. I made sure I was well qualified before jumping in right seat in a RJ so that I woudn't end up like so many of my friends way over their heads flying passengers around.

That's very cool, and admirable. I'm sorry that I assumed that you would have taken the first job offered - I see ERAU and figure that to be the case. That wasn't fair of me to do. Again, I apologize.

I'm still shocked at what they pay the pilots...that's peanuts. Why do people still become pilots? Do they just love flying? That's the only possible reason I could think of because there are so many more career fields out there fresh out of college where you can make almost 3 times what a pilot makes, work 8-5 and have none of these crappy working conditions.

Others have answered the question, but I'll throw my situation in too. It generally comes down to just loving to fly. I've wanted to do it my whole life. There was a time in the late 90s when I was making crazy money as a game developer (I did this to pay for college and much of my flight training), and when everything came crashing down in 2001, I jumped ship and made my push to be a career pilot. I became a flight instructor, and took a six figure pay cut. But I'll tell you something - when I was a game developer, I spent every hour looking out my window wishing I was up flying. When I was instructing, I never once looked down and wished I was writing code, even with the larger paycheck. Instructing was one of the best times of my life.

The vast majority of pilots that make a living at it are like me - they have a passion that makes them push through the crappy pay in an effort to finally make it someplace that doesn't suck. Like I said in my last post, short of the government getting involved in airline pay - the only way a regional is going to pay better is if it can't find any pilots to fly their airplanes. And unfortunately that'll never happen - there's even a regional airline where the pilot has to pay $29,900 for the privilege of flying in the right seat as a First Officer. It's disgusting, but I bet they still have a steady stream of pilots that desperate for the turbine flight time. Pisses me off just thinking about it.

Anyway, I will say that the vast majority of airline pilots are very, very good at what they do, but unfortunately (like any industry) there are a couple of bad apples that slip through the cracks, and remember that all pilots are human and will occasionally make human mistakes. The system is designed such that one mistake alone won't bring down an airplane, but occasionally everything lines up, a bit of bad luck is thrown in, and an accident happens. And this isn't limited to regional flying - it happens everywhere. It's just that this particular accident brought some issues of regional pay to light. The other stuff the media is talking about - fatigue, training deficiencies, not adhering to sterile cockpit rules - that stuff goes on industry wide.

 

[quagmire]

Reading this discussion back and forth is making me scared for my future career. I know the regionals pay like crap, but once you make it to the big airlines it gets better. It's just a lot of investment of your time and life to get that far up.

Southwest pays well, $198/hr for a 12 year Captain.

I am hoping I am able to grab a job at NetJets in my career. Minimum pay there is $70K/year and most is $225K/year( all depending how you choose your schedule).

 

[dmr727]

Reading this discussion back and forth is making me scared for my future career. I know the regionals pay like crap, but once you make it to the big airlines it gets better. It's just a lot of investment of your time and life to get that far up.

That's pretty much it. As long as you understand that you'll be not making much for awhile, you'll be okay. Just plan for it. Also plan on being furloughed a couple of times if you're airline or fractional, or just plain let go if you're corporate or charter. As an aside, word on the street is that NetJets is about to let go of 700.

 

[sushi]

Same could be said about doctors.

For example only 1/2 the doctors graduted in the top 50%.

in medical school, what do you call the top student graduate? Doctor

What do you call the bottom student graduate? Doctor

Uh, did you read my post?

Here is what I said at the end:

BTW, you can substitute medical school/doctor, law school/lawyer, etc.

<snip of good post.>

Anyway, I will say that the vast majority of airline pilots are very, very good at what they do, but unfortunately (like any industry) there are a couple of bad apples that slip through the cracks

<snip some more good stuff.>

Agree.

Good post BTW.

 

[MooneyFlyer]

I don't think ticket cost has a lot to do with it...look at Southwest for example. Their prices are very reasonable, usually the cheapest. They don't charge for the first two checked bags. They don't charge you rediculous fees to change a ticket. They don't charge you all of the other fees the legacy carriers charge. Their customer service is the best in the industry, and I assume they pay their crew pretty well, and they fly 737s, none of the supposedly cheaper to operate regional jets or prop planes. And yet, there still a profitable company.

There may be a lot of reasons airlines are in the situation they're in, but I don't think ticket prices have a lot to do with it.

Fair enough but as I noted the airlines cost structure is an issue causing a more complex problem than just the ticket price. Southwest manages to make it work by keeping their costs very low but they are a point off of the curve. Perhaps JetBlue will follow -- but the legacy carriers have way too much overhead to compete at those prices. Instead, they start price wars with each other to gain market share at the expense of, well, more losses. And, keep in mind, they own most of the good routes -- though some of that is changing as well. Ultimately the public doesn't want to pay more than about $300-$400 to go anywhere.

Mergers would be one way to cut the costs down but they are extremely difficult and many don't make it. Northwest and Delta recently pulled it off working through the difficult challenges of merging the unions (and therefore dealing with the complex seniority issues).

Unfortunately for me I spend far too many hours in the back of one of the legacy carrier planes (more than 1.2M miles / thousands of hours) and far too few hours in my Mooney (hundreds of hours).

 

[dmr727]

Good post BTW.

Yeah, even the sun shines on a dog's ass every so often.

 

[rtb90]

It is unfortunate that the plane crashed but after hearing the cockpit tapes I have to wonder what the pilots were thinking. They mention the ice buildup and then don't do anything about it.

 

[quagmire]

It is unfortunate that the plane crashed but after hearing the cockpit tapes I have to wonder what the pilots were thinking. They mention the ice buildup and then don't do anything about it.

The procedure to using boots is that you have to wait until a decent amount of ice builds up on them then turn them on or else they won't deflate right( I believe that is the right explanation), but who knows how they used them on this flight.

 

[dmr727]

The procedure to using boots is that you have to wait until a decent amount of ice builds up on them then turn them on or else they won't deflate right( I believe that is the right explanation), but who knows how they used them on this flight.

What you're thinking of is ice bridging, and the conventional wisdom is that if you inflate the boots too often, the ice simply begins to form a shell around the inflated shape - making them useless as they inflate and deflate under the shell. So the idea was to wait until there was about a quarter inch of ice on the leading edge of the wing, blow the boots to break it off, and repeat.

Not too long ago the NTSB claimed that ice bridging is a myth, and recommended cycling the boots as soon as any ice is seen. There's still a lot of debate about this though - many pilots claimed to have personally witnessed bridging, and you can still find the 'old method' in the flight manuals of a lot of airplanes.

 

[quagmire]

What you're thinking of is ice bridging, and the conventional wisdom is that if you inflate the boots too often, the ice simply begins to form a shell around the inflated shape - making them useless as they inflate and deflate under the shell. So the idea was to wait until there was about a quarter inch of ice on the leading edge of the wing, blow the boots to break it off, and repeat.

Not too long ago the NTSB claimed that ice bridging is a myth, and recommended cycling the boots as soon as any ice is seen. There's still a lot of debate about this though - many pilots claimed to have personally witnessed bridging, and you can still find the 'old method' in the flight manuals of a lot of airplanes.

And being said by Riddle( or at least my IP).