8-Core Mac Pro Details Emerging?

[SMM]

It will come, just not with the initial production models. With the quad-core chips, Intel is already running into FSB bandwidth issues as it is. The Clovertowns are essentially dual Woodcrest CPUs stuck on the same die, sharing the same FSB and communication between the first duo-core CPU and the second duo-core CPU on that die must travel onto the FSB and into the other CPU. Between the two cores that are linked directly, data sharing can be handled through the L1 cache. So, depending on your application, the 8-core may be no better than a 4-core system -- if what your'e doing is already maxing out your CPU bus bandwidth. Somwhere down the road as Intel shifts to its 45nm production process and fully integrates all 4 cores on a single CPU (and later, 8 cores on die), we will see massive improvements in inter-core bandwidth. They will have to step-up on the FSB bandwidth though... Possibly by increasing the MHz, but more than likely we'll see some of that combined with increasing the width of the data path and possibly using multiple parallel FSB designs. ...Going to be interesting, that's for sure. And with Intel's new process and the plans for continuously jamming more cores onto a die at higher speeds, I think we're in for a real ride over the next 5 years or so.

Absolutely agree. It must be exciting to be an EE working on this stuff right now. So many options to explore. How would you design a memory bus which would be dynamic enough to adjust for a doubling of processors? If you had a fixed, known number of processors, the design is straight-forward. But, the new multi-core design is not something they have had to deal with before. I wonder how they will do it?

 

[Multimedia]

Mac Pro Won't Change Other Than The Addition Of A Dual Clovertown Processor Option

That's great! I want to put 4GB in my 8-core Mac Pro anyway, so I hope the price lingers there (or maybe even falls a little by the time I can get an octo core). I'd buy now, but I'd rather hold out on the chance that it'll drop a little more, or even on the longshot that they'd change what kind of modules the new machines use.

I doubt anything with the Mac Pro will change (other than the CPUs) when the 8-core models ship. Intel originally was very committed to using the FB-DIMM type RAM in their systems for the next couple years. However, they have since backtracked on that and said that they will continue to explore other options. Who knows what that means... I thik it means that we'll probably see DDR3 on mid-range systems in '07, probably in notebooks as well at some point mid to late year. But I would guess that for the foreseeable future, FB-DIMM is the standard for Xeon workstations and servers, so Mac Pro and XServer should continue with this type of RAM for a while. When Intel finally shifts to the new 45nm process sometime mid/late next year, then all bets are off as they will need to increase bandwidth for both the RAM and FSB to keep in step with CPU growth.

Zactly. Waiting for prices to change is probably an act of futility other than waiting for an 8-core refurb. The 3GHz Woody Mac Pro Refurb is $3299 which would compare to the 2.33GHz Clovertown. So there isn't going to be a lot of "savings" waiting for the refurbs which probably won't show up until late January at the soonest. Can you afford to be without all that power in the meantime? I can't wait.

 

[Multimedia]

Omni & 1-800-4MEMORY Both Supply Good RAM For Less Money

Anyone know anything about these suppliers, other than Crucial Technology?

I know Omni and 1-800-4MEMORY are both suppliers of good ram for less money.

I've never understood why anyone buys RAM from the more expensive Crucial. Can only be marketing 'cause I have no reason to pay more for RAM from just another supplier of the same thing.

 

[AppliedVisual]

I've never understood why anyone buys RAM from the more expensive Crucial. Can only be marketing 'cause I have no reason to pay more for RAM from just another supplier of the same thing.

Crucial makes great stuff (usually). The trick is to not buy direct from Crucial!!! But vendors like newegg and zipzoomfly sell Crucial memory at prices close to all the other "cheap" memory like OCZ, Corsair, Patriot, Kingston -- or all the other makers that make some pretty darn good stuff (usually). Right now, FB-DIMMs are pretty scarce... Most vendors for Mac Pro RAM are shipping the same Samsung modules that Apple is, they are just using different OEM heat spreaders. The price just keeps falling as the Mac Pro and other PC systems use more of this stuff and demand increases. I definitely see an 8-core Mac Pro w/8GB (4x2GB) in my near future. I think I'm going to sell one of my G5 Quads though, the resale value on these is really holding strong -- they're going on eBay for just about what I paid for them! May jump on it now or as soon as the 8-core Pro is released because I fear that as soon as Adobe CS3 hits along with a few other universal binary updates people are waiting on, the value of these G5 Quads is going to go in the crapper.

 

[elbirth]

Anyone know anything about these suppliers, other than Crucial Technology?

Several co-workers of mine have used 18004memory and Datamem and rave about how good they are. Pretty low prices compared to other places and they seem to be fairly reliable.

I bought a 1GB stick from 18004memory for my MacBook Pro but it makes it reboot once every few days or so (once I take it out, it'll go weeks without randomly rebooting). I need to RMA it, but I think it was just bad luck on my part.

 

[elbirth]

Zactly. Waiting for prices to change is probably an act of futility other than waiting for an 8-core refurb. The 3GHz Woody Mac Pro Refurb is $3299 which would compare to the 2.33GHz Clovertown. So there isn't going to be a lot of "savings" waiting for the refurbs which probably won't show up until late January at the soonest. Can you afford to be without all that power in the meantime? I can't wait.

Well, I'm waiting until around January to buy a new 8-core, not a refurb. I'm just seeing if I could perhaps save a couple bucks on the RAM because every little bit would help. I've been planning for a couple months now to wait until Macworld SF in January because initially I assumed that would be when the 8-core systems would be out. However, if they're out this year, even better- if any big issues pop up hopefully they can have them worked out. In that case I *may* get a refurb if they have them that soon- otherwise I'm just saving my money and had planned it out to have what I think should be enough (or close) by mid-January.

Luckily I can afford to wait (and my bank account thanks me for doing so). While I'm not in need of that kind of processing power, I believe I could definitely put it to use. My 2GHz MacBook Pro is my primary machine right now and I regularly get it to the point where it's starting to crawl and becomes painfully slow at times.

 

[Multimedia]

Holy Molly 30" Dell Is Now Only $1279.20 • Another $75.60 Less Than Last Week

And now for the update... Dell re-shipped via UPS next-day. Still took until yesterday apparently to actually ship from Dell. But it's here. I just plugged it in and everything looks just fine. No dead/stuck pixels I can see. But then again, that's the way my first one was I bought nearly a year ago. After about 3 months, *POP!* one blue stuck pixel. Hehe, these two screens look maaaavolous together. Would it be gloating too much if I posted a pic? Heheheh... Maybe I'll bust out the camera after I clean off my desk.

Holy Molly now 30" Dells are only $1279.20. They just lowered the list to $1599.

Any chance we can get a price adjustment?

We paid $1349 last week. That's another $75.60 less including tax. Man I could of had an iPod Shuffle for that.

10.24.06 - New C2D MacBookPro's announced.

AV-I phoned Dell this morning and got a $70 credit toward my 30". Wouldn't give me the $5.60 sales tax but got $70 instead of the usual $50 they said. Me so happy. That means I got the Dell 30" including sales tax for $1398.32.

 

[doctor pangloss]

In three years they will have something much better, might as well wait!

 

[AppliedVisual]

In three years they will have something much better, might as well wait!

Yeah, I'm not buying until the 32" 4K resolution monitors hit $1599.

 

[RichP]

Damn multimedia, you are making me want that Dell! I just went to the Apple store to check out the 30" (pulled a stool up to the machine from the genius bar and tried to see if I could handle all that real estate). I am usually a sucker for Apple stuff and having matching componentry...but that dell is so CHEAP!

AV/multimedia, how far do you sit from your screen?

 

[Multimedia]

Dell 30" New List $1599 Sale $1279 Prices Make For A Compelling Offering

Damn multimedia, you are making me want that Dell! I just went to the Apple store to check out the 30" (pulled a stool up to the machine from the genius bar and tried to see if I could handle all that real estate). I am usually a sucker for Apple stuff and having matching componentry...but that dell is so CHEAP!

AV/multimedia, how far do you sit from your screen?

Mine are up against the wall at the back of 3 foot deep tables. I have an L table setup with a 6x3 and 8x3 for a total of 9x8 so I'm usually about 3-4 feet away.

Yes the Dells are low priced but they do not look nor feel cheap in any way. I really prefer the black or dark brown frames Dell uses. In the dark the screens float in the dark and the frames do not reflect anything from the screens like the Apple Aluminum frames must. Plus they all have 4-port USB 2 hubs in them and 9-type memory card readers. And they all have elevators so you can adjust the height which Apple's do not. I love the new x07 model Dell Stands which differ from the x05 model stands. And they are all VESA mount compatible as well. I'm gonna get another Dell 30" next Spring or as soon as they hit $999 which ever comes first - watch out Black Friday - November 24.

The popularity of 30" monitors has got to be going through the roof right now with these ever rapidly lowering prices happening. I can really see the end of all CRTs now.

 

[AppliedVisual]

AV/multimedia, how far do you sit from your screen?

I sit about 35 to 40" from my 30" display. Seems to be about the ideal distance. I keep the height adjusted so my eyes looking straight ahead are about 1/4 of the way down from the top of the screen. My primary display is centered straight ahead and the secondary display is on my left on an angle. Works very well. Took some getting used to as I've always had my secondary monitor on the right, but with the room layout, it worked better on the left at my new place. Ah, it's late, but I'll post a picture tomorrow tomorrow night so you can get a feel for what we're talking about. These Dell 30-inchers are just plain cool.

Other than that, I second everything Multimedia said... Although, I already bought my second Dell 30" when it broke the $1400 mark. it's just too cool having 2 of these side by side. It's almost surreal having this kind of desktop real estate. Just be aware that with the G5 Macs, you need an FX4000 of FX4500 video card to use two of these. With the Mac Pro, the FX4500 again, or the ATI X1900xt will run dual 30" displays as well and is a bargain at $240 upgrade when ordering.

 

[RichP]

Well, to bring this back on topic, and talk more about screens; I have a G5 right now that can run one 30"; I am going to get a Macpro once Adobe goes universal, and at that time, we should have a revisionB Macpro, perhaps with more cores. Macpro, for the performance, once it was loaded with memory, just wasnt a good deal compared to a used G5 2.7 I found on ebay (6GB of RAM!)

I run 2 20"s right now, and really like dual screen. Reason being is one display is hooked to my G5, the other is hooked to a KVM that goes between the G5 and my PC. I use the PC only for CAD, and with programs like Alias, there is so much screen real estate taken with menus, it would be nice to have a little more space. I would just go with 2 apple 23" screens, but their color is just horrible, and my experience is tainted from them. If I get a 30", then I need to also get an expensive dualink DVI KVM, but the dell is so less expensive, getting that over the apple would completely offset the cost of the switch.

Thanks for the info guys, I was trying to figure out how I should have the screen setup; you dont want to sit so close to it that you need to move your eyes around alot to see things, that can be very fatiguing.

 

[AppliedVisual]

If I get a 30", then I need to also get an expensive dualink DVI KVM, but the dell is so less expensive, getting that over the apple would completely offset the cost of the switch.

Just thought I'd put in my piece of advice about DVI-DL KVM switches. I'm only aware of three of them on the market, the two most common are from Gefen (www.gefen.com). I'm using the 4x1 Gefen and it works perfectly switching my primary display between my G5 quad, two PCs and my MBP. I know the quad switch is double the price, but DO NOT BUY THE 2x1 DVI-DL SWITCH from Gefen!!! It is using an older design and internal chipset and requires you to disassemble it to tweak an internal control dial. Then use two fine-tuning dials on the front (one for each input) to stabilize the picture. Unfortunately, unless all your devices are using identical video chipsets and putting out identical (or as close as possible) signals, you will never get both displays synchronized. Gefen knows about the problem but remains silent about the issue. They swapped my 2x1 switch for a 4x1 switch and gave me a decent discount after I went through two 2x1s with the same issue. Finally one of their senior tech guys admitted to the problem... So if you're connecting two G5's with the same video card, go for it. but if you have different hardware, then steer well away. The 4x1 switch has no compensation dials and does it's own on the fly signal tuning for each input, just as DVI is supposed to.

Sorry for the rant, but I just wanted to vent on this and maybe share someone else the frustration. Besides, dealing with Gefen is a total PITA! It's been two months of me calling them every other day trying to get a refund for something I returned long ago.

The other DVI-DL switch I know of is a matrix switch costing close to $6K. If you want the details I'll fill you in, but it's a commercial A/V electronic patching matrix suitable for running a mix of high-res or HD res displays and video walls in sports bars and/or shopping malls.

 

[Multimedia]

Apple Added 750GB HDs To The Mac Pro Configure Page

Just noticed Apple has added 750GB HDs to the Mac Pro configure page recently. Only a few weeks left 'til the Dual Clovertown Mac Pros ship.

2.33GHz C2D MacBook Pros announced yesterday shipping today. Only MacBook & mini left to complete the Core 2 Duo transition. Should be all in place by Thanksgiving including 8-core Mac Pro. Very exciting.

 

[elbirth]

Just noticed Apple has added 750GB HDs to the Mac Pro configure page recently. Only a few weeks left 'til the Dual Clovertown Mac Pros ship.

2.33GHz C2D MacBook Pros announced yesterday shipping today. Only MacBook & mini left to complete the Core 2 Duo transition. Should be all in place by Thanksgiving including 8-core Mac Pro. Very exciting.

Yeah, I saw someone talking earlier about the addition of the 750GB drives... this gives me a new dilemma of deciding between 2 drives. I suppose price will be my deciding factor overall... I just want my 8 cores!

 

[RichP]

Just thought I'd put in my piece of advice about DVI-DL KVM switches. I'm only aware of three of them on the market, the two most common are from Gefen (www.gefen.com). I'm using the 4x1 Gefen and it works perfectly switching my primary display between my G5 quad, two PCs and my MBP. I know the quad switch is double the price, but DO NOT BUY THE 2x1 DVI-DL SWITCH from Gefen!!!

Darn it! That is just stupid. I have a gefen DVI switch now, its sad to hear that the 2x1 is junk. Its not worth it to me for the 4x1, either 900 for a switch, for for 1280, (a few hundred more) I get ANOTHER 30"!

I wish the apple 23s just had the quality of the 20 and 30.

 

[Elfear]

Sorry for the noob question, but does anyone know how well Maya 7 will scale with 8 cores? My buddy is debating whether to buy a single Kentsfield or step up to dual Clovertons. He has a freelance business in which he uses Maya 7 quite a bit. Thanks.

 

[AppliedVisual]

Sorry for the noob question, but does anyone know how well Maya 7 will scale with 8 cores? My buddy is debating whether to buy a single Kentsfield or step up to dual Clovertons. He has a freelance business in which he uses Maya 7 quite a bit. Thanks.

Well the Maya application itself won't benefit anymore from 8 cores than it would from 2 or 4. But 8-cores will help immensely with rendering, especially if he uses MentalRay and has enough licenses. Currently Maya Complete has 2 licenses and Maya Unlimited has 8. I'm not sure how the Maya licenses will apply to quad-core CPUs just yet.

 

[Elfear]

Well the Maya application itself won't benefit anymore from 8 cores than it would from 2 or 4. But 8-cores will help immensely with rendering, especially if he uses MentalRay and has enough licenses. Currently Maya Complete has 2 licenses and Maya Unlimited has 8. I'm not sure how the Maya licenses will apply to quad-core CPUs just yet.

Sweet. That's what we needed to know. I believe he has Maya Unlimited so he should be good for the 8 cores no matter how they decide to license it.

Is the ability to render using more than 2 cores a feature of both Maya 7 and Maya 8?

 

[ATG]

The problem is that Appkit isn't thread safe, and until it is you aren't going to see much on the multithreading side. It's fine for a renderer but for your run of the mill GUI app like keynote or pages or iLife there isn't much point.

 

[ATD]

Sweet. That's what we needed to know. I believe he has Maya Unlimited so he should be good for the 8 cores no matter how they decide to license it.

Is the ability to render using more than 2 cores a feature of both Maya 7 and Maya 8?

I have Maya Unlimited and I render (mental ray) to 6 cores (a quad and a dual). This works in Maya 7 and 8. It's a pain to setup, easy for 1 computer, a pain for network setups.

Edit, it just so happens that I started hooking up my mental ray satellite as I wrote this post. As expected it was a pain so I had to contact Atuodesk to get help. I noticed that in the setup info it suggested Maya Unlimited 8 gives you 8 additional render licenses on top of the 4 that are standard. I asked the rep if that was correct and he said yes. So that's 12 all together.

 

[Elfear]

I have Maya Unlimited and I render (mental ray) to 6 cores (a quad and a dual). This works in Maya 7 and 8. It's a pain to setup, easy for 1 computer, a pain network setups.

Edit, it just so happens that I started hooking up my mental ray satellite as I wrote this post. As expected it was a pain so I had to contact Atuodesk to get help. I noticed that in the setup info it suggested Maya Unlimited 8 gives you 8 additional render licenses on top of the 4 that are standard. I asked the rep if that was correct and he said yes. So that's 12 all together.

How well does Maya scale when you use 2, 4, and 6 threads?

 

[ATD]

How well does Maya scale when you use 2, 4, and 6 threads?

I'm not sure how the app (Maya) itself scales but the rendering in Mental Ray scales perfectly. 4 cpus render twice as fast as 2, 6 cpus render 3 times as fast as 2. That's if all the cpus are the same of course.

Is that what you were asking?

 

[Elfear]

I'm not sure how the app (Maya) itself scales but the rendering in Mental Ray scales perfectly. 4 cpus render twice as fast as 2, 6 cpus render 3 times as fast as 2. That's if all the cpus are the same of course.

Is that what you were asking?

Yup. That was exactly what I needed to know. I just didn't want to recommend that my buddy buy two quadcores unless it was going to help out his render times. Thanks again.