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90nm Growing Pains
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iReilly said:
Buy a Refurb Dual 2ghz off of the online Apple store. They come with the same warranty and every product I've bought as a refurb has looked absolutly brand new. I wonder if this is a case where Apple can get rid of some new units and if people don't know about the referbs then they pay full price. If they don't have the duals listed check back often. I've seen them come and go in a matter of haors. They are rarely up for more than a few days.
Dual XServe G5s yet?
Has anyone received their XServe Dual 2.0Ghz G5 yet? My lab placed the order back in January, and it still has yet to show up.
Has anyone received their XServe Dual 2.0Ghz G5 yet? My lab placed the order back in January, and it still has yet to show up.
psycho bob
macrumors 6502a
It truly is refreshing to hear people realise that computers aren't everything. People rave on about the fact that Intel are moving ahead in the GHz race, the fact is there new 90nm chip is quite literally burning up. It runs hot and doesn't deliver a significant increase in performance because its outdated lengthy pipeline structure causes significant loses for large data throughput and is also very expensive to produce. This is no doubt the main reason for Intel now adopting their new naming strategy and also pressing ahead with a successor to the P4.
The real competition for the G5 is AMD however they are facing many the same problems because there chips are also produced by IBM. AMD haven't yet moved to SSOI either, IBM as they have done so often are pioneering new technology so surely deserve a bit of a break. We will get new machines and when we do people will start complaining that we don't have 4 or 5GHz processors. In the last year or so there have been very few processor breakthroughs so what's the big deal.
Professionals will keep working and making the best of what is available because lets face it a computer is a computer. People who want to show off there latest all singing all dancing bit of kit will keep complaining. The fact is this isn't a case of a company not investing in the technology and time to develop processors based on the same old spec like it was with motorola and indeed Intel who essentially just milked the P4 for all it had to get high clock speeds out of it.
IBM have invested huge sums of money, it is there business they can't and won't fail but problems take time to sort out. When they are sorted we will get all the 90nm chips we could ever want and it should be smooth sailing until we reduce the die sizes again to 65nm.
If come the WWDC we do get 3GHz G5's then apple will have stuck to what they said they would do and for a while at least the Powermac will be the fastest desktop on the planet. AMD aren't due to hit these levels until the end of the year start of next and although Intel have faster chips in pure GHz terms the technology they use means it will not be enough to keep them ahead until they completely redesign. Even if apple fail to reach this target we all know it won't be through lack of trying.
Quite frankly what would the point be of releasing a new G5 now with a top clock speed of say 2.5GHz (not going to happen) only to then release 3GHz machines a month or so later it just isn't practical or cost effective. Just be patient and if you can't be then go and by a G5 now. I mean dual 2GHz, that's one slow mac isn't it 🙄
The real competition for the G5 is AMD however they are facing many the same problems because there chips are also produced by IBM. AMD haven't yet moved to SSOI either, IBM as they have done so often are pioneering new technology so surely deserve a bit of a break. We will get new machines and when we do people will start complaining that we don't have 4 or 5GHz processors. In the last year or so there have been very few processor breakthroughs so what's the big deal.
Professionals will keep working and making the best of what is available because lets face it a computer is a computer. People who want to show off there latest all singing all dancing bit of kit will keep complaining. The fact is this isn't a case of a company not investing in the technology and time to develop processors based on the same old spec like it was with motorola and indeed Intel who essentially just milked the P4 for all it had to get high clock speeds out of it.
IBM have invested huge sums of money, it is there business they can't and won't fail but problems take time to sort out. When they are sorted we will get all the 90nm chips we could ever want and it should be smooth sailing until we reduce the die sizes again to 65nm.
If come the WWDC we do get 3GHz G5's then apple will have stuck to what they said they would do and for a while at least the Powermac will be the fastest desktop on the planet. AMD aren't due to hit these levels until the end of the year start of next and although Intel have faster chips in pure GHz terms the technology they use means it will not be enough to keep them ahead until they completely redesign. Even if apple fail to reach this target we all know it won't be through lack of trying.
Quite frankly what would the point be of releasing a new G5 now with a top clock speed of say 2.5GHz (not going to happen) only to then release 3GHz machines a month or so later it just isn't practical or cost effective. Just be patient and if you can't be then go and by a G5 now. I mean dual 2GHz, that's one slow mac isn't it 🙄
spullara said:
I love how people make suppositions on what they want to believe not what reality is. Apple's promo's like this always end on the last day of the fiscal quarter for Apple. In this case June 26th is that day. Drawing any sort of correllation between the end date of the promo and potential new releases doesn't hold water in this case.
-thetruth
Mr. Anderson
Moderator emeritus
agreenster said:
you really think dual 3 GHz will be available in June? I think that might be a bit optimistic if you ask me. If you're lucky they'll announce them and start taking orders for delivery in 3 months (around September) 😀
On that note - I'd also love to have a dual 3 GHz....
D
mgargan1
macrumors 65816
jwmci said:
Yea, Intel released its Prescott (90nm) process on Feb. 1st, and all the benchmarks show that it blows a big one. It's more hot, and slower clock for clock than a northwood (130nm) P4; however, it does have one thing going for it... 16k of L1 cache, compared to 8k of L1 on northwood, and 1M of L2 vs. 512k of cache on the northwood. Prescott has Strained Silicon, but really that hasn't helped yet, but it will when intel releases faster chips. I think that the P4 is on its last legs, but only time will tell. I really do hope that the 970fx, will be as good as everyone hopes. And when/if Apple does go to the 980 it will be dual core. Imagine a dual core dual processor. 4 totall processors, muuuuch better than that crappy hyperthreading.
But as of right now Intel is the only company mass producing 90nm chips, and they're not even producing too many of them...
Mr. Anderson said:
Wouldn't we all.
Right now I'd settle for any upgrade, and some guidance from Apple.
EDIT: any upgrade, that is, that come with a new Power Supply, an 8X DVD, etc.
psycho bob
macrumors 6502a
hacksaw said:
Your point being? They are still made by IBM, and if IBM are having probs at one fab they are more than likely going to have them at others. I thought IBM had moved all processor prduction of this type to Fishkill anyway?
Several days ago, I mentioned firm information I had regarding PowerBook G5's shipping no earlier than 2005 and was treated pretty rudely by someone else on this board. Even though I recognize that the news from IBM is unpleasant for some, I'm glad that so many people here are willing to get past it.
A couple of points in response to comments here:
1. If you're in the notebook market, now is the perfect time to buy. The new PowerBooks and iBooks are absolutely wonderful machines--the best, I think, that Apple has ever made.
2. Apple can't lower prices significantly on existing G5's because doing so would force Apple to *raise* prices when it releases new models. Nothing kills the buzz of a new release more than having it cost a little more than people expect, even if it's entirely worth it. (Just look at the vocal initial reaction by some to iPod mini pricing, even though the pricing turned out to be entirely correct!) Apple very much wants to avoid that scenario with any upcoming G5 PowerMacs.
Having said the above, there are two exceptions: (1) closeout sales to clear inventory (not needed just yet); and (2) cases where Apple feels that it can bring down the machine's price without having to increase it when subsequent models are introduced. In that case (which can't happen too often), you may see price reductions on current models. In the first case, the sale would usually take the form of a promotion, so that it would be clear to customers that the items hadn't been re-priced.
elo
A couple of points in response to comments here:
1. If you're in the notebook market, now is the perfect time to buy. The new PowerBooks and iBooks are absolutely wonderful machines--the best, I think, that Apple has ever made.
2. Apple can't lower prices significantly on existing G5's because doing so would force Apple to *raise* prices when it releases new models. Nothing kills the buzz of a new release more than having it cost a little more than people expect, even if it's entirely worth it. (Just look at the vocal initial reaction by some to iPod mini pricing, even though the pricing turned out to be entirely correct!) Apple very much wants to avoid that scenario with any upcoming G5 PowerMacs.
Having said the above, there are two exceptions: (1) closeout sales to clear inventory (not needed just yet); and (2) cases where Apple feels that it can bring down the machine's price without having to increase it when subsequent models are introduced. In that case (which can't happen too often), you may see price reductions on current models. In the first case, the sale would usually take the form of a promotion, so that it would be clear to customers that the items hadn't been re-priced.
elo
psycho bob said:
My point being, AMD HAS IT'S OWN FOUNDRY.
AMD only license SOI technology from IBM.
IBM does not own FAB 30 in Germany.
LOOK HERE
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/AboutAMD/0,,51_52_502_509,00.html
http://www.amd.com/us-en/0,,3715_10023,00.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/editorial/display/tech-process_8.html
http://www.IBM.com
Power4 and Power5 are very different. As for my comment, it has been know for quite some time that IBM and Apple were co-developing two lines of chips at the same time. They are doing this so they can make up for lost time. This goes back to last summer if memory serves me.
dongmin said:
Power4 and Power5 are very different. As for my comment, it has been know for quite some time that IBM and Apple were co-developing two lines of chips at the same time. They are doing this so they can make up for lost time. This goes back to last summer if memory serves me.
chips and dip
Well,
Apple will likely have a G5 powerbook no sooner than the summer of 2005. I am speculating, ofcourse. But I wouldn't be surprised if 1/06 is more of target pending chip-output rumors and IBM manufacturing.
My brother-in-law retired from the Vermont IBM facility (before they moved much of the processes to new Fishkill plant). I'll email him if he knows anyone with info on 90nanometer process.
I am wishing, but a quad G5 processor would really pacify my angst. How about you? Yeah, a 3Ghz G5 DUAL would also help me with my future animation projects...sigh.
Well,
Apple will likely have a G5 powerbook no sooner than the summer of 2005. I am speculating, ofcourse. But I wouldn't be surprised if 1/06 is more of target pending chip-output rumors and IBM manufacturing.
My brother-in-law retired from the Vermont IBM facility (before they moved much of the processes to new Fishkill plant). I'll email him if he knows anyone with info on 90nanometer process.
I am wishing, but a quad G5 processor would really pacify my angst. How about you? Yeah, a 3Ghz G5 DUAL would also help me with my future animation projects...sigh.
uzombie said:
I surely hope you're joking. If Apple cannot get the G5 into the powbook before summer of '05, then they are in serious trouble! The G4 is maxed out (as of Monday) so I don't even see them being able to milk it with another minor G4 speed boost this year. What are they going to do, keep the G4 (an antiquated processor with an embarrasing FSB) in the PB until summer of '05? They might as well get out of the portable business if thats the case because, while the PBG4's are good machines, they're already 1-2 years behind their PC counterparts in terms of processing speed.
Granted Apple is better all around and thats why we keep buying despite the slower G4. However, that can only last so long. If they can't get a G5 into the PB by Jan at the latest, they're in trouble unless they find some G5 alternative (and no, a moto G4 won't cut it). Reality is, even though its IBM's fault, its Apple's problem.
mklos
macrumors 68000
gskiser said:
The G4 is maxed out as of now! So is the G5! So whats your point? Motorola will increase the speed of the G4 just like IBM will increase the speed of the G5. It all takes time. More than likely Motorola is already working in a faster G4 processor. Apple themselves already said that they aren't getting rid of Motorola's G4 anytime soon. In that same article they also stated that the PowerBook will NOT see a G5 processor anytime soon. People just don't understand that its 100x easier to put a G5 in a desktop/server than it is a laptop. There is no room for a heat sink, no room for hardly any air movement, etc. So its extremely hard to cool it. It also consumes a ton of power so IBM would have to make a low powered version. I believe the PowerMac G5 uses a 600 Watt powersupply. Does that tell you something?
mklos said:
This PDF http://www.motorola.com/mot/doc/0/786_MotDoc.pdf is from a presentation Moto did back in June 2003. They reckon the G4 is going all the way to 2Ghz and Dual Core. I'm not sure exactly what they mean with DDRI and DDRII built in - I presume they are adding a memory controller which would cure the current problem with the G4 MPX bus maxing out at 167Mhz. That would be nice. RapidIO isn't going to be too popular with Apple I'd guess after they've plumped for HyperTransport in the G5.
Anyway, that would still make for a pretty damn fine laptop even if it came out in Jan 05. I'd suspect a 2Ghz G4 with built in memory controller would wipe the floor with even a G5 2Ghz bearing in mind the G4's shorter pipelines.
Could you imagine the uproar if Apple did come out with another G4 Powerbook after this one though from the "G5 or I'm buying a Dell" crowd?
Frobozz
macrumors demi-god
gskiser said:
Don't over exhaggerate. I don't know about you, but no one I know has a Wintel laptop that's noticably faster than an Apple laptop. It's hard to compare the two, anyway, but I'll say this for sure... I know a lot of people in the high-tech sector that have Compaq and IBM laptops that are S-L-O-W. Brand new, and slow. But that's still comparing apples to oranges.
On an application to application comparison, I have no doubt that some "luggable" PC laptop with desktop processors and a 45 minute battery life could squeeze out 25% more performance. But who cares? Anyone that needs that much more speed should be using a desktop for their tasks. I'm not going to be doing 3D rendering of film quality graphics on my laptop-- maybe preliminary work or test work, but not the final deal. That's for the dual 2 GHz G5's...
I don't think Apple is losing the performance war. They beat the hell out of PC laptops on features, and the speeds are comparable, if not MUCH faster on the Apple side for Video. The price/performance of Apple is a lot better than a PC.
zkmusa said:
Place my order in Jan also. First date was March 10th, then it went to April 29th, where it has stayed... Only wierd thing is that when I checked today, my orginal order has a "canceled" next to it, with a new order below it. No idea when THAT happened, but it still lists Apr 29 as the due date.
😎
MM
alexf
macrumors 6502a
mklos said:
Does the G5 really*consume that much power? For some reason I thought that the G5s were supposed to be more energy efficient than their predecessors...
By the way, does anyone know whether the dual processor G5 consumes significantly more energy than the single?
echeck
macrumors 68000
the whole kit-n-kaboodle
All this talk about faster processors in laptops...PC laptops are faster than the PB's..etc..etc.. I can't help but notice that not many people bring up the fact that the processor isn't all there is to a laptop.
I'd like to see one PC laptop that can do all that a PB can do, whether it be a G4, G5 or G80. 😉
Apple machines come with so much more than a PC laptop, for starters just look at all the amazing free software! Granted iLife isn't exactly professional grade, it's still pretty sweet. And OS X. 😎
So even though I agree with most here saying that Apple needs to get the G5 into the PB's (and they will), I'm still going to get a G4 PB this fall. Sure I'd like to see a faster FSB, but I'll be quite pleased with my G4 PB.
Cheers!
😀
All this talk about faster processors in laptops...PC laptops are faster than the PB's..etc..etc.. I can't help but notice that not many people bring up the fact that the processor isn't all there is to a laptop.
I'd like to see one PC laptop that can do all that a PB can do, whether it be a G4, G5 or G80. 😉
Apple machines come with so much more than a PC laptop, for starters just look at all the amazing free software! Granted iLife isn't exactly professional grade, it's still pretty sweet. And OS X. 😎
So even though I agree with most here saying that Apple needs to get the G5 into the PB's (and they will), I'm still going to get a G4 PB this fall. Sure I'd like to see a faster FSB, but I'll be quite pleased with my G4 PB.
Cheers!
😀
mklos said:
I know it's not as easy to put it into a laptop. However, your 600 Watt comparison of the G5 tower is not completley fair. We're talking about the 970fx, which is different than what's currently in the tower. From what I've read, the 970fx, when clocked down to 1.6-1.8 actually uses less power than than the 1.5 G4 currently utilized in the PB's.