A case for GNU/Linux on my MacBook Pro

[wahgnube]

No, my biggest gripe is actually with my more frequently used application on any platform: Emacs. I'm afflicted with emacs, and there is no known cure. I'm very picky about emacs, I expect it to work identically in the following scenarios:

1) Graphically.
2) From the terminal
3) From the terminal via ssh to any other unix (linux/bsd/solaris/darwin/whatever).
4) I switch between my powerbook and my Dell+Ubuntu frequently. The keys should be in the same spot.

It's almost perfect, but the Meta key is my problem. Long story short, I use 'Option' for meta instead of 'Cmd' (aka the Apple key). That seems to work consistently between the full gui and the terminal, but it is physically a less desireable location. Plus, when I ssh to a linux system I have to "stty erase ^vdelete" and if I forget I have a nasty surprise waiting for me at my first typo; it's almost like accidentally using vi

EEEEEEEEPPPP!!! I almost cancelled my order when I read this. I am an extremely avid Emacs user as well, and I need a well positioned meta key. I need this "feature" more than I do Aqua.

The moment I saw this post I rushed out to a Mac desktop and noticed the Apple Key was conveniently placed. Is there some problem with overriding its usage and sending the signal straight to Emacs?

 

[wahgnube]

Oh yeah, I just remembered another annoyance. This one's with MacOSX itself.

Too many freaking bouncy things.

Seriously, I hate that crap. Icons jiggle when apps are launching and this apparently can't be disabled. When an app wants your attention, it's icon bounces at the bottom of the screen. Forever. Honestly, how on earth does this not at least warrant a "disable" option?

Still, if you've had the displeasure of using windows xp it's nothing like that. Watching other people use winxp is almost enough to give me a seizure; the constant distractions from apps that demand your attention drives me batty. In contrast, OSX is tepidly annoying from time to time.

Also, when the system updater runs it steals focus and won't allow any apps to sit on top once it decides you should reboot. That means close everything this instant and let it go, which is not altogether expected the first time you go through the process (as a unix guy, at least).

Oh yeah, you have to reboot after system updates. Hello? Isn't this unix? Bah.

Once again, in the big picture these are minor--and it all should be weighed against the numerous things about OSX that are surprising in a positive sense.

-kev

I get to use some slowish Mac desktops from time to time, and this is the one thing that annoys the hell out of me. Windows might be bad, but I've seen some people configure it to look lean and work-friendly. An older GNOME on the other hand, hasn't much fanciness to distract you.

And that's the way we likes it around these parts.

 

[wahgnube]

This whole topic has left me a bit cold. Why in the name of blazes would anybody want to buy a relatively expensive first generation iNTEL in order to flip it over to Linux and maybe play with OS X occasionally?

I personally have never found one open source app that has ran well via the X11 environment havent tried the others. I am sure there will be massive porting issues at the start on the Intel Macs.

If you want to be a Geek why are you not saving your pennies and buying a AMD Sun Workstation with Open Solaris or put whatever Linux distro you like on it.

I expected this line of questioning to come much sooner .

I might be a geek, but that doesn't mean I can't like a shiny case on my laptop . I need a good x86 laptop, and the only thing that's neck-and-neck with the MacBook Pro (in terms of build quality, ruggedness, lightness, ...) is the ThinkPad T60. And currently it's just as or a bit more expensive, so I really won't be "saving pennies". And this isn't about saving pennies.

It might be first generation Intel for Apple, but it's not really first generation for Intel. I wasn't attracted to the Mac because of OS X, I just found their build quality and visual appeal quite stunning and have always wanted one. I didn't think of it seriously because of the non-x86 archictecture. Now I think of it as "just another PC-ish" laptop, and am OK with picking one up.

OS X might be slick and easy to use and a lot more. But you also have to realise it needn't be what I'm used to or even the most performant. I'd just like to keep an open mind, and was curious about my freedom to run what I want.

 

[wahgnube]

Oh yeah, I just remembered another annoyance. This one's with MacOSX itself.

Too many freaking bouncy things.

And I have one more (and I don't even have my machine yet!). What's the deal with the refusal to maximize windows? They give you a beautiful bright screen with high resolutions, but browser windows, for instance, can only use some 2/3 of the space.

Hmph.

 

[balamw]

And I have one more (and I don't even have my machine yet!). What's the deal with the refusal to maximize windows? They give you a beautiful bright screen with high resolutions, but browser windows, for instance, can only use some 2/3 of the space.

That's 'cause the green button isn't a maximize button, ever. You can work around this though... https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/170464/

EDIT: Once you accept that and start working with Expose it starts to make sense for many apps. Why go "full screen" and surround the actuatl document with grey bars, when you can use that space to display something else?

B

 

[wahgnube]

Why go "full screen" and surround the actuatl document with grey bars, when you can use that space to display something else

I think I can learn to live without my current window occupying my whole screen, but what grey bars are you talking about? I don't understand.

 

[balamw]

I think I can learn to live without my current window occupying my whole screen, but what grey bars are you talking about? I don't understand.

Sorry, I was looking at Word on my XP screen when I was typing that.

When looking at any document that has portrait orientation in full screen mode you will often get to a point where it just doesn't fill the screen's width, so the app fills that space with something blank and useless like the grey bars I was looking at around my document in Word on XP.

Sorry for the confusion.

B

 

[wahgnube]

When looking at any document that has portrait orientation in full screen mode you will often get to a point where it just doesn't fill the screen's width, so the app fills that space with something blank and useless like the grey bars I was looking at around my document in Word on XP.

Sorry for the confusion.

Not a problem.

But what about, for instance, when you're reading a (realy wordy, free-width) web page and you just want as much information on a line as possible? This is the only time using something like Safari (and I've used it less than 20 times over 4 years) can get to me. Especially if it isn't even on a high resolution desktop to begin with; it's already small, and it further insists on sitting bang in the center and leaving much width unutilised.

(The issue here is not whether something is "right" or something is "wrong". It's just that it's different, and different people react in different ways to an OS's hard-coded defaults. As long as they don't lock me into using their OS, I won't complain if there is something I don't like about it. I'll just use something else, and everyone is appeased.)

 

[Agathon]

And I have one more (and I don't even have my machine yet!). What's the deal with the refusal to maximize windows? They give you a beautiful bright screen with high resolutions, but browser windows, for instance, can only use some 2/3 of the space.

Hmph.

Welcome to Macintosh.

It's not quite as bad as you think, you can drag any window to take up the full screen, and it remembers the window setting next time you run the program.

However, the Mac OS has always resisted the full screen windows option. The reason is that the Mac OS has always been designed to incorporate as much drag and drop as possible. I had the same sort of culture shock when I switched from Windows 10 years ago. Apple used to have this app for new users that taught you how to use a Mac: it consisted of a game where you learned to put groceries in a bag using the mouse. It taught you all the basics of using the OS.

Even then, it took me years to get out of bad Windows habits and adopt the simpler Mac way of doing things.

For example: on Windows if you wanted to save a picture or a scrap of text from Netscape, you had to right click and select save, and then get the dialogue and so on (IIRC - this was 10 years ago). On the Macintosh you just grabbed what you wanted and dragged it to the desktop. I can't remember whether you can do this on Windows, but the fullscreen mode makes it a lot harder to do.

I guess the real difference is that the Mac was never meant to be "computerish". It tries to hide complexity from the user as much as possible and make operating the machine as dependent on repetition of a few simple concepts (select, click, double-lick, drag) with visual rather than semantic feedback. Of course geeks hate this "computers for idiots" mode, and some have almost religious objections to anyone using a computer like this. I think this is a bit silly. With OS X you aren't forced into this mode of doing things, and OS X is more "computerish" than the Classic OS ever was. I guess that the popularity of the mac amongst people like me and people like yourself is that each of us can use the machine in their own preferred way. I never use the command line, whereas a colleague of mine hardly ever uses the Finder (he's an old UNIX geek). There's more than enough room for everyone.

Having said that: I've always been interested in the Free Software movement, and I support its goals. Since I upgraded to OS X I have tinkered with Fink and a few things like the GIMP (which I love). No doubt a few Linux geeks who have switched to OS X have found themselves using the GUI rather than the command line more often than they would have thought, but that's life - you just end up using what is most convenient.

So I guess the summary is that you may well find your habits changing if you switch to using OS X, but don't worry about it. If you come to the OS with preconceptions about how you want it to work, you may find yourself losing out on new and more efficient ways of doing things.

 

[wahgnube]

If you come to the OS with preconceptions about how you want it to work, you may find yourself losing out on new and more efficient ways of doing things.

I'll do all I can not to let them get in the way .

I'm not closed to trying new things out or learning---and that's primarily what being a geek is about. I'm definitely not one of those folks who believes if it appears too dumbed down, it cannot be powerful.

Plus there is always a bash console a click away. For those evenings I refuse to learn.

Edit: I meant to respond to the following but it slipped when I was snipping your post, sorry.

Having said that: I've always been interested in the Free Software movement, and I support its goals

Honestly, what you just said above is a big part of what drives my motivation. I've used Free Software for over a decade now, and have helped out the FSF financially and other projects with effort because of this. People here might not understand, but I will gladly trade in some shininess for the ability to continue to do this.

Purely because I feel it's the right thing to do.

 

[balamw]

But what about, for instance, when you're reading a (realy wordy, free-width) web page and you just want as much information on a line as possible?

There are so many pages that are designed not to be displayed at a particular window size and do not allow you to adjust the width of the text, the font size etc... that this point is often academic.

As Agathon pointed out, just drag the window out to your desired width or use the javascript bookmark in the thread I linked to earlier.

If you come to the OS with preconceptions about how you want it to work, you may find yourself losing out on new and more efficient ways of doing things.

Well put. I concur, and this was one of my experiences that actually brought me back into the fold. When I started to use my iPod the way Apple intended instead of forcing everything to be the way I thought it should work, I discovered the power of smart playlists, etc... and never looked back.

B

 

[Agathon]

I'll do all I can not to let them get in the way .

I'm not closed to trying new things out or learning---and that's primarily what being a geek is about. I'm definitely not one of those folks who believes if it appears too dumbed down, it cannot be powerful.

Plus there is always a bash console a click away. For those evenings I refuse to learn.

Let me say something that I have thought for years. Apple's move to OS X has extended the Macintosh user base from creative professionals and "the rest of us" (in Apple's cute terminology), to include a large number of geeks, UNIX lovers and so on, and as a regular user, I think that the influx of geeks has been of immense benefit to the pre-existing Macintosh community. For example: I have been for some years an avid reader of Slashdot, and I have downloaded and used a lot of software from the OSS/Free Software community.

edit: So I guess when I said I had "always" been interested in the F/OS Software movement, this means that I have been interested in it since I really became aware of it - and Apple's move to OS X was the catalyst.

I'm planning at some time in the future to obtain a cheap x86 box to run Linux on (just out of curiosity and to play around with it -- which is a large part of the attraction of Linux), and I want to learn how to use the command line properly (again, just out of curiosity). I would never considered this or even been aware of it if a lot of new geeky *nix users hadn't become active members of the Mac community and made me aware of the possibilities offered by OSS/Free Software.

I guess you could say that both communities have made a lot of new friends, which is always good.

 

[Heb1228]

Oh yeah, I just remembered another annoyance. This one's with MacOSX itself.

Too many freaking bouncy things.

Try Dock Detox, it lets you prevent dock icons from bouncing and other annoyances.

 

[wahgnube]

As Agathon pointed out, just drag the window out to your desired width or use the javascript bookmark in the thread I linked to earlier.

I will look into it when I get my machine; thanks!

 

[wahgnube]

Let me say something that I have thought for years. Apple's move to OS X has extended the Macintosh user base from creative professionals and "the rest of us" (in Apple's cute terminology), to include a large number of geeks, UNIX lovers and so on, and as a regular user, I think that the influx of geeks has been of immense benefit to the pre-existing Macintosh community. For example: I have been for some years an avid reader of Slashdot, and I have downloaded and used a lot of software from the OSS/Free Software community.

And I feel the exact same way, though I don't think I could have articulated it this nicely. I'm clearly coming in from the side of UNIX geeks who read Slashdot, and the only reason I'm considering OS X is because I'd like to imagine, at its core, it is still motivated and designed they way I enjoy.

I'm planning at some time in the future to obtain a cheap x86 box to run Linux on (just out of curiosity and to play around with it -- which is a large part of the attraction of Linux), and I want to learn how to use the command line properly (again, just out of curiosity). I would never considered this or even been aware of it if a lot of new geeky *nix users hadn't become active members of the Mac community and made me aware of the possibilities offered by OSS/Free Software.

This will actually be a fun experiment to wile away a few weekends. Good luck! It will be rough around the edges, but you might be surprised how polished a modern distribution---and "flasgship apps" like Firefox and such---can be. It is interesting that this is exactly where I'm coming from, for so many years of my computing life. Tinkering and tweaking was part of the fun, and it still is, but there are times when I feel a little too grown up, and would like to just "switch on and use"; rather than tweaking a kernel driver for some esoteric hardware.

I guess you could say that both communities have made a lot of new friends, which is always good.

Can't complain about that! Which brings me back to what you said initially about drawing in a rather wide audience---and the places I often notice conversations (centered around the Mac) popup between the "graphic designer" sort, and the "bearded hippy" sort (I don't mean anything derogatory here; and it's clear which side of the fence I'm on) are in innocuous little coffee shops.

 

[khammack]

EEEEEEEEPPPP!!! I almost cancelled my order when I read this. I am an extremely avid Emacs user as well, and I need a well positioned meta key. I need this "feature" more than I do Aqua.

The moment I saw this post I rushed out to a Mac desktop and noticed the Apple Key was conveniently placed. Is there some problem with overriding its usage and sending the signal straight to Emacs?

It can be done for at least two of the three flavors of native GUI emacs; the reason I don't use the apple key is because you can't get the terminal to send it to emacs when running in curses/console mode. Ditto for remote sessions through ssh. If I didn't care about those two cases, I'd use the apple key for meta.

Actually, I've become quite adept at switching between ALT on a PC and option/alt on the mac. It's really not that big of a deal, and I use emacs pretty much all day every day.

I'm not closed to trying new things out or learning---and that's primarily what being a geek is about.

My recommendation is to spend a few months earnestly trying to "drink the koolaid". It probably won't even take a month.

For example, I use at least 6 virtual desktops on linux at any given time. OSX does not have 'virtual desktops'. My first thought was that this would be limiting; I considered downloading a multi-desktop app called "desktopmanager". Instead, I spent time trying to use the system "as is".

As it turns out, Exposé combined with "hiding" (Cmd-H) works differently but just as effectively as virtual desktops. And it eliminates the need for things like Tabbed-browsing (though Safari has tabs).

I've never bothered to download desktopmanager.

-kev

 

[wahgnube]

My recommendation is to spend a few months earnestly trying to "drink the koolaid". It probably won't even take a month.

For example, I use at least 6 virtual desktops on linux at any given time. OSX does not have 'virtual desktops'. My first thought was that this would be limiting; I considered downloading a multi-desktop app called "desktopmanager". Instead, I spent time trying to use the system "as is".

As it turns out, Exposé combined with "hiding" (Cmd-H) works differently but just as effectively as virtual desktops. And it eliminates the need for things like Tabbed-browsing (though Safari has tabs).

That is what I plan to do. I don't plan to augment the OS interface functionality with things like "desktopmanager". And I haven't used virtual desktops heavily over all these years; only rarely when I seriously need some logical separation between different sorts of tasks I'm doing. So that a random irritant from a communication program (E-mail, IM) does not distract. So I won't miss virtual desktops, that's for sure.

And according to specint and specfp (not really pertinent to real life, I know) numbers I read somewhere, this Macbook is on par with a similarly configured ThinkPad, so there is no compelling performance reason to shift OSs either. It's just a matter of using it, and working out the numerous keyboard combinations and such as I discover new features.

On another matter of interest to me, is there some way I can get Mac OS X to read/write (hopefully natively) ext3 partitions? I've googled a bit and I've stumbled upon some "freeware" applications---not an ideal solution. I guess my bigger question is, is it possible to augment the Darwin kernel with the equivalent of a module (as in Linux) to do things like this?

Because I have a few-hundred gig external hard drive I currently used for storage and backing up, and it's in (unsurprisingly enough) ext3. I would like to use it as is when I get my new machine, for the same purposes. If it's not possible, I can move the data out, reformat, and move the data back in, but I was looking for a more direct solution.