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What about the methane gas produced by the sheep? As well as the oxygen they consume and the CO2 they exhale? Compared to letting the grass simply grow, consuming CO2 in the process and producing oxygen?

Ahah! That's it! The solution to global warming: Kill all the sheep and you will save the planet. :D ;)

The other: we harvest energy from the sun. Think about that for a second. Hundreds of thousands of miles away and using under 1% of its energy, yet still powering so much is baffling (in a good way).

Yikes. :eek: We would be quite crispy on such a world. Thankfully, our distance from the sun is measured in the millions. ;)

People opposed to "green tech" really overestimate the cost of the tech. Prices are really coming down. Even more so when you use a combination of alternative energy sources.
 
Dirt? It looks like they're spraying with herbicides. Most likely RoundUp. Ick.

They should be grazing sheep and pigs under those solar electric panels or letting it be a meadow.
From the original article:
Apple works with a company that provides sheep to eat the grass underneath the solar panels, an environmentally friendly alternative to mowing.
So were you being sarcastic, or just too lazy to actually read the article before claiming Apple is spraying herbicides instead of doing exactly what they are doing?

I expect the grass is brown because it's, you know, November.
 
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Why is it that they never include the expected total cost per Kilowatt Hour for these installations. It must be too expensive and stockholders would revolt if they knew the truth.

Costs:
Initial production byproduct polution
Cost of the units
Cost of the land
Cost to install
Ongoing maintenance costs (cleaning & repair)
Replacement costs

Because there is usually an NDA in place covering all of those things, minus the land (which was in one of the old articles about the NC data center). Each of the things you want to know is negotiated and placed into a very complex financial model. But what you really want to know is the leveled cost of electricity, which takes everything you asked into account. Good luck getting that, or any other electricity data, for any commercial datacenter. You can figure out a lot about what is inside if you know about the electricity usage.

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This reminds me of Gattaca....

hahaha....

Other than the building in the movie being in Marin ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marin_County_Civic_Center ) and Marin being in the Bay Area about an hour and a half from Apple, not sure where you are going with this (unless sarcasm). Cutting edge tech maybe?...
 
I was more wondering about the impact of the loss of 100 acres of trees - but similar thoughts. (didn't see many solar cells on the building roof or over the parking lot either...)

Yeah, that too. I was hoping it had already been an empty field or something, but....

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Land is cheap out there. Raising the solar panels off the ground would have made installation much harder (folks would have had to work on elevated platforms), repair and maintenance gets harder, and more materials need to be purchased. For that effort and added cost you would have gotten some accessible land which is pretty much always in the shade but is covered by high powered electricity generators, has a consistent low "buzz" from inverters, and the possibility of electrocution. You really wouldn't want to hang out in this space every day for 8 hours a day, so who do you think would have used this land you freed up by placing the solar panels up high? The added construction costs alone for the elevation might have been more than just buying flat land out in that area. Land in a remote area can be only $5,000 per acre. Land perpetually covered by solar panels is probably worth far far less than that.

Sometimes they put solar panels on top of parking lots. That seems to work. But there aren't nearly enough cars in the entire county to justify a 100 acre parking lot.

I sort of meant parking them on top of a structure... a building, perhaps, even.

And don't be silly. Everyone knows a good Quiddich match draws enough people to take up 100 acres.
 
Apple's just hedging against future electricity rate increases.

Duke Energy has already asked for 20% increase for residential customers as they try to swallow another utility that had major problems, e.g. a nuclear plant poorly designed, badly run, and that is now too expensive to fix.

So Duke will be building a new natural gas-fired plant to replace that nuclear plant, plus they are retiring their oldest coal plants in favor of more natural gas-fired plants.

All that will cost tens of billions of dollars - I wouldn't be surprised if the residential rate doubles in a decade.

Remember Apple not only gets tax credits they also get to depreciate the entire installation which has a huge impact on the rate of return.
 
Like all new technologies (including oil going back a 100 years ago), it takes significant investment and infrastructure to start it. After technologies mature, the cost naturally comes down. How much resources does it take to build giant rigs to drill for oil, drill for oil, process the oil, build huge oil tankers to transport, build huge pipelines all over the country to distribute it, etc. Now that that whole system in place, it's hardly fair to compare it to a new alternative system that is just starting out.

You can bet that big business will not create an alternative unless there is a government pushing them to do so. There are a few exceptions like Apple and Tesla but for the most part, they don't.

For examples, look at our Food industries and Oil industries. What they are doing is horrible, yet they have bought out our government and use our taxes to give them benefits? Explain that one to me?

Why not give take away their subsidies and give it to alternative renewable power? This will increase the cost of oil, reduce the cost of alternatives. Why not take away subsidies from Monsanto and give it to local food producers. Those people that think organic is too expensive won't think so after fast food goes up in price and healthy organic places come down in price.

Oh and as a side benefit, America may just become a little heathier and some of our health care debates may just go away... After all the real problem with our healthcare is that we are sicker than ever....that is why the costs are high. No one wants to fix that, we just keep arguing about the symptom of the problem, not the problem itself.

Anyways, I've gone too far off topic.
Kan-O-Z

If only it were that simple.

There's rarely only one side to the story, and reality is often much more complex than we realize.

I can't really respond to you fully (because I honestly don't know enough), but just to point out why our energy problems aren't so cut and dried:

1. Big business will push for anything that will make them a profit. Currently, renewable energy just isn't as profitable. Many people don't realize exactly how much cheaper it is to use or, or scientifically why carbon based fuels are so much more useful. I'm not saying renewable energy is bad, or that we should ignore the externalities and stick with fossil fuels by any means. But the amount of energy per density (and mass) that can be stored in fossil fuels is absolutely incredible. And the fact that it can be transported so easily from place to place makes it even more useful.

Essentially there are two barriers here -- (a) economies of scale (when the market for these things are small, (fixed) costs are obviously higher, because you can't spread them out as much. And (b) the technology just isn't there yet -- if you look at the net present value of an investment in solar panels, it just doens't make financial sense. The upfront costs are simply too high relative to the alternative, and the ouput too low.

2. The cost of oil isn't determined at all by subsidies given to the oil industry. It's a worldwide market which is (not surprisingly) determined by global supply and demand. The growing demand by developing countries (and China especially) paired with a largely controlled supply to OPEC is what is primarily responsible for high oil prices. Subsidies won't change a thing in comparison with the other factors at play in that respect.

3. I will probably be villainized for saying this since popular opinion runs so strongly against Monsanto, but having worked in the agricultural industry alongside of them, what they are doing is actually very beneficial for humanity. For example, many of the new strains of corn they are developing are drout resistant and can actually be grown in places that things could be grown in previously, like West Africa. Additionally, many people like to rail again GMO (genetically modified organisms), but also want to have zero pesticides. Again, as someone who has some agricultural knowledge and experience -- you can't have it both ways. If you really want everything "organic", food prices would be an order of magnitude higher. GMOs actually enable farmers to use LESS pesticides on their crops, which I think is a great thing.

Are there instances of Monsanto bullying smaller farmers? I have no doubt. It's a large corporation, and with any institution that large, there's going to be fault and corruption. But let's at least look at both sides -- I for one would not want a world without GMOs and Monsanto. Some of the innovatino they are doing in the agricultural sphere is pretty incredible, and making life better for everyone.

4. Finally, I don't deny the corruption of big corporations lobbying for subsidies from Washington. There's plenty of it to go around, and I'm just as against it as you are. Though I am from a state with a large agricultural industry (Nebraska), I think some of the farm subsidies are among the dumbest fiscal policies that we have as a nation. They simply don't make economic sense.

That being said -- subsidies do play an important role, particularly through research and development, in the public good. Though they can clearly be used in corrupt ways, they can also be used to great effect to steer the market in a way that it would not otherwise go in. This can be a really good thing, particularly if there are a lot of externalities involved (basically an economic term for good or bad things that are not paid for or provide benefit to the decision making parties). Alternative energy can be a great place for those subsidies -- it provides an incentive to speed the growth of a market that would not get off the ground as quickly otherwise (chicken an egg problem -- no one wants it unless it is cheaper, but it won't become cheaper until more people want it).

Finally, I would suggest checking out this Forbes article on the nature of oil subsidies. http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidbl...tax-provisions-are-not-subsidies-for-big-oil/ It explains a little more clearly our federal tax code and what incentives and breaks "Big Oil" is given.

5. A couple of closing comments:
(a) It is not exactly fair to compare the fossil fuel industry to the renewable energy market, since there are large technological differences that contribute to a wide profitability gap between the two. It's not just a matter of building the infrastructure -- if that were the case, it would have been done by now. People have been predicting how solar energy would come to the masses and replace coal since the 70s. Putting aside technological hurdles in the price of the solar panels aside, a huge problem is that large portions of the US are unsuitable for solar energy. How are you going to transport energy to those portions? With coal, it's actually quite cheap and easy -- just through it on a train and cart it off wherever it's needed. Not so much with solar power -- most of it would have to be generated in the south (and southwest in particular). Moving so much energy all the way up to New England? Immensely impractical and enormously expensive.

(b) It's very easy to simplify things -- villainize the big corporations and talk up the "little guys" and the underdogs. But the truth is that's the cheap, lazy man's way out. While I'm sure there's plenty or corruption in big corporations, and plenty to blame them for, its not all that simple. We are facing some thorny technological and economic problems that don't have an easy answer. On the one hand, we have to deal with the problems inherent to fossil fuels -- pollution and long run unsustainability, to name two. But we face a tradeoff with equally daunting problems inherent to renewable energy.
 
…..Apple is one of the of the largest non-utility clean energy generation companies in the country. As of a report earlier this year, Apple uses 100% renewable energy across all its data centers, plus 75% at its corporate facilities…..

…..at times of peak power production the company becomes a net power producer for local utility Duke Energy. Apple appears to be the only major Internet company with its own power generating facilities like these…..

…..Biogas is an alternative to natural gas that can be captured from decomposing organic matter like landfills, water treatment facilities and farms. Natural gas is significantly cheaper, but is a nonrenewable fossil fuel…..

…..Renewable energy is a hot-button issue at the moment with some outside observers like Greenpeace pushing large Internet companies to adopt clean power for their data centers, which consume some 2 percent of the total electricity produced in the United States each year. Apple has worked hard in recent years to improve its public image with regards to the environment, and recently hired former EPA chief Lisa Jackson to head the company's environmental and sustainability efforts.

Article Link: A Closer Look at Apple's North Carolina Renewable Energy Power Plant

Using the more expensive Biogas shows Apple’s true commitment to the environment. All of the above, a record Apple supporters can be proud of, and even though there's more work to be done, a record nevertheless, any dweller of this planet called Earth, should embrace and celebrate.

…..Apple works with a company that provides sheep to eat the grass underneath the solar panels, an environmentally friendly alternative to mowing…..

This one absolutely cracks me up: state-of-the-art high-tech solutions to environmental pollution and non-renewable resource depletion all on the same page with an innovative, yet decidedly low-tech solution to lawn maintenance.
 
It's simple and disturbing at the same time. Big business will do anything to keep their business running strong, including destroying the earth and our health so they can continue to make profits. They will spend $$$ on lobbyists and buying up politicians to ensure that the laws promote their business and hinder any sort of alternative. Finally they will spend $$$ on brain washing people to support de-regulation of our government (telling people that the government takes away our freedom) to get people to vote for politicians that support de-regulation. De-regulation is great for them as it allows them to continue with their unethical practices to make even more money.

I ask one question: What are you going to do with all that money when we have no climate, food, water, or earth to live with?

To those that are big business supporters and anti government....just know that big business is even worse than big government. They leave you with little to no choice in what you eat, drink, buy and breathe. Unlike big government, they actually have an agenda...to make money at any cost.

I applaud Apple for doing this. I applaud companies like Tesla to create our modern electric car. Times will change soon.

Kan-O-Z

Umm, Apple IS a big business.

Anyway, thanks for hitting all the talking points, but lets leave politics out of this forum, please.
 
"Natural gas is significantly cheaper, but is a nonrenewable fossil fuel."

All fossil fuels, and this includes natural gas, are renewable.
 
This one absolutely cracks me up: state-of-the-art high-tech solutions to environmental pollution and non-renewable resource depletion all on the same page with an innovative, yet decidedly low-tech solution to lawn maintenance.

Having parts from different toolboxes is a sign of a well thought out solution. Though I would be surprised if the sheep aren't brought in by truck every x days.


You can bet that big business will not create an alternative unless there is a government pushing them to do so. There are a few exceptions like Apple and Tesla but for the most part, they don't.

You left off the end of your sentence:
on geologic time scale

This part is often left out. It's not real time. The costs of bringing a gallon of fuel to your gas tank include location (finding and buying rights too), extracting, transporting, refining, and more transporting. And of course, marketing and sales. Despite the language, none of the price goes toward the capture and production of the energy itself.

Oil, coal, NG, was captured and stored over millions of years with no (zero) cost to anyone. The energy within is free and 100% of what 'producers' pay at the well and we pay at the pump is for extraction and preparation. You spend 10 hours pumping, you may get 100 years worth of sunshine in return.

In contrast, renewable type energy is primarily real time. You capture 10 hours of sunshine, you get 10 hours of solar energy. It's a massive disadvantage. Big business will jump in when it pays well and the natural disadvantage is to great right now. The role of government is to create incentive before incentive creates itself (artificially early). Because at some point, free energy will stop being so and not having a head start will cost even more.


A couple of days ago I was at a PC website reading about Google's solar power plants. And it's all nice and dandy, but it was amazing the pure anger that some people had over the fact that solar panels were being used, as apposed to nuclear/gas/coal.

Normally I would explain it as a loss. People hate loosing, hate giving something up and will fight to preserve it. But I'm at a loss as to what that is here.
 
I'm a bit concerned that Apple is wasting energy by having the sheep walk in and out every day to mow the lawn, as it were. If they could attach little wheels that the sheep could drag behind them to charge up some micro batteries, I'd feel better about it. And maybe they could use the wool is some way, perhaps have it spun into yarn by Tibeten monks who could make eco friendly iPod warmers.

lol

I was wondering who’s going to pick up the sheep-dung, that’s no doubt destined for the Biogas plant? Just leaving it there, would make the grass grow even faster, no?
 
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