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What are the ram requirements on the nMP?

For example if I had 4GB dimms in slots 1,2,3, I am guessing I cannot stick a 32 or 16 GB dimm in slot 4.

Do they need to be in pairs? ie.. slot 1,2 have 4GB dims, and slot 3,4 have 16 GB dims?

Or do they all need to be the same size 4 x "N"GB's ?

Or does anything go? even distribution is just for quad channel performance boost?
 
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I started saying it 10 years ago and the truth still holds: PC > MAC when it comes to desktops. Just get over it people.

On the contrary, MAC > PC when it comes to laptops.

Carry on.
 

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What are the ram requirements on the nMP?

For example if I had 4GB dimms in slots 1,2,3, I am guessing I cannot stick a 32 or 16 GB dimm in slot 4.

Do they need to be in pairs? ie.. slot 1,2 have 4GB dims, and slot 3,4 have 16 GB dims?

Or do they all need to be the same size 4 x "N"GB's ?

Or does anything go? even distribution is just for quad channel performance boost?

It's quad channel ram. I don't know if having different sizes doesn't run at all or just runs slower. But considering how cheap ram is these days I would just buy 4x8 or 4x16 and be done with it.

I know some people have complained about it only coming with 12G in the base model but honestly I'd like the option to get it a bit cheaper with only 4G or whatever the minimum the machine needs to run since I'm going to take it all out and replace with third party anyway. Heck, given the option I'd buy a config that doesn't come with any ram at all.

That is simply incorrect.

I assume he meant speedstep and sleep don't work on hackintoshes with xeon. Obviously xeon systems running windows or OSX natively have those features.
 
It just occured to me: why didn't they make two versions, one with dual GPUs and one CPU like they have and another config with dual CPUs and one GPU?

Surely that would have maximised the applicability of the machine for different users but keeping the same form factor & design cost.
 
I'm actually quite disappointed at the over-the-year performance increase. And for audio-engineers the dual graphics will sit there doing nothing.

Strange isn't it that OpenCL can't be used to process audio data streams...

:cool:
 
It just occured to me: why didn't they make two versions, one with dual GPUs and one CPU like they have and another config with dual CPUs and one GPU?

Surely that would have maximised the applicability of the machine for different users but keeping the same form factor & design cost.

I don't think it's nearly as simple as that. And it would likely make the costs go up all around.

And what about those that would want dual CPU and dual GPU?
 
It's quad channel ram. I don't know if having different sizes doesn't run at all or just runs slower. But considering how cheap ram is these days I would just buy 4x8 or 4x16 and be done with it.

I know some people have complained about it only coming with 12G in the base model but honestly I'd like the option to get it a bit cheaper with only 4G or whatever the minimum the machine needs to run since I'm going to take it all out and replace with third party anyway. Heck, given the option I'd buy a config that doesn't come with any ram at all.

Ya, I'd love a config with no ram. Heck maybe no SSD either. The CPU and the GPU is what I'm buying from apple.

16GB isn't enough, so it seems like such a waste toss those 4GB dimms. So I'm leaning towards upgrading from the Quad starting point, putting in the 6 or 8 core. And D500 or D700 and putting a 3rd party 16 GB stick in the empty 4th slot to bring it up to 28GB or ram- which will hold me for another year or so when going to 48-64 gigs is cheaper still.
 
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I don't think it's nearly as simple as that. And it would likely make the costs go up all around.

And what about those that would want dual CPU and dual GPU?

Tough ****, pretty much like those of us that wanted to see a dual CPU nMP currently. But why did you assume I thought it was simple? I'm sure the whole machine R&D was extremely complex. Maybe thermally the current design couldn't cope with dual CPUs? I suspect that isn't the reason though as it could have been designed from the start to handle a dual CPU config. Most likely its cost/revenue decision.
 
Pardon me, but I prefer to decide what I "need" in a system.



At this point it's pretty obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about.

So .. then why bitching about MAC PRO at the first place .. just get what you want ... lol

Obviously I don't live with you so i can't read your mind or know about your idea ..:D
 
Damn, my 2010 12 core still beasting on these tests. I guess it's a keeper for another couple years. Just wished I could buy another 2 years of AppleCare.
Yep, top of the heap in the 64 bit multi-core benches. Congrats!
 
Much better is kind of subjective. If you look at benchmarks for the 6-core for example, Geekbench reports it to be 31% faster (why 32-bit!) than the 6-core from 3.5 years ago!
.....
Many would argue that a 31% increase is a disappointing (nay pathetic) advancement in CPU performance for an equivalent model over that length of time,

3 years , roughtly 10% per year. That's pretty good. If their paycheck went up 10% per year over last 3 years not many folks will be yelling 'pathetic' increase.

The x86 archiecture is old as dirt. It has been optimized by very smart folks for that last 20 years. There are magic potholes to remove to get hypergrowth anymore. There are niche problems like SIMD code that is run through the AVX engine now. The SIMD code improvements actually have been use and the 3 year processors are dog slow in comparison. Likewise, stream AES encryption... 3 years old ... it is a dog.

But general across the board super increases on single cores? Not coming. The large jumps are in more cores.




especially when they're charging $4,000 for it (which correct me if I'm wrong is roughly the same price as a 6-core model from 3.5 years ago)?

It is a bit more. But then that would have been 3GB of RAM versus 12GB now. Similar on storage drive performance. These systems aren't solely or even dominately driven by CPU price at the lower standard config end of the spectrum.






Plus, while 7 TeraFLOPS sounds great, you'll only get that on on the top end 12-core model. We're yet to see how the lesser cards stack up?

Actually not. the 7 TFLOPs is purely the D700 all by themselves. It doesn't necessarily require 12 x86 cores to keep those cards feed with data. In fact, given all three are sharing the same power supply and fan 12 cores is going to draw resources away from the cards also.


Secondly, Only no new information if you haven't bothered to look at Apple's web pages. Apple lists the TFLOPs for each single GPU card they are offering.

http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/specs/

D300 2TFLOPs/card ( 4 TFLOPs )
D500 2.2TFOPs/card ( 4.4 TFLOPs )
D700 3.5TFLOPs/card ( 7 TFLOPs )

All of three of those individual cards are better than even the 12 core Xeon on single precision (non especially AVX ) performance, let alone the fewer core models.

What does remain to be measured though is not these peak rates but the sustained. The dual card numbers are likely more theoretical than real. ( due to power/thermal constraints as well code constraints )





Since Apple has moved to a single-socket design, you'll see dual-socket Xeon workstations that smash these new Pros for roughly the same price soon enough.

Just with Xeons and no/weak GPGPUs??? Only on x86 only code. With same GPUs will give up lots of base clock to keep the price the same.


It would've been good if they could price the 8-core at the 6 and the 6 at the 4 but I understand a lot of R&D went into it and it sure looks good. I appreciate quiet computers too!

The 8 relative 6 pricing is primarily driven by Intel not Apple. There is a substantive chunk added by Apple to both, but nothing like what Intel is adding.

E5 1650 v2 $583 ( 6 cores 12MB L3 )
E5 1680 v2 $1723 ( 8 cores 25MB L3 )

$1,140 difference. So about $500/core. ( there is more L3 cache too ).

The gap here is largely because the E5 1680 is priced like a 1600 series but far more like an E5 2600 processor. In fact there is a 10 core model with similar base clock speeds and not quite as large dynamic Turbo range that is exactly the same price. This is basically that 10 core model with two cores permanently flipped off to support the increased dynamic clock range. So pay for them anyway.

There are more affordable 8 core models but you'll loose very significant base clock speed. The extremely high price is because getting both more cores and relatively high clock for that many cores.

In about 2 more iterations v3 ( Haswell updated arch ) v4 ( Broadwell shrink ), Intel probably will have 8 core priced at 1650 6 core prices. But that is in the future.
 
I'll take you down one by one because I don't like people telling me how things work without any proper argument.

You don't seem to have the foggiest clue how audio production works. You can do some sort of mix on any sort of computer, but that totally ignores number of tracks, number of plugins on each track, and running huge sample libraries. Right now things like big orchestral sample libraries are some of the most taxing audio applications, with thousands of samples loaded, multiple mic positions, and sometimes tens of gigs of sample data loaded in memory at once plus more streamed from SSD. Some sample libraries recommend SSD at this point. And many composers are using multiple computers linked together because single machines often aren't powerful enough.

Many composers are technically inept and don't know how fast drives and DFD works, where SSD drives via TB extensions excel and stomp the current mac pro.

Big orchestral libraries?

Oh come on, I can run a full orchestra (or two) on my retina MBP from my internal drive. And a superior 2.0 fully loaded at that. And I only have 16GB of RAM. Its funny what fast hard drives did. You don't need to load samples in RAM anymore, because SSD are blazing fast, seek time is ridiculous.

So don't give me crap about having to have fully loaded garbage in RAM + additional SSD to have it stream. You could pull an orchestra off with a 7k2 rpm drive and 16GB of RAM. Dual SSDs + 32GB of RAM isn't enough? Get another damn job because you have no clue how instrumentation works on a theoretic level. If you need 150 violins at the same time to make it sound proper you are doing it wrong

Also, physical modeling. It runs on CPU, not RAM and SSD.

But hey whatever, Mac Pro 2013 is more than well-fed on the RAM and SSD department. each thunderbolt port takes 20gbit throughput meaning you can connect 2 PCIe SSDs on each port. But I take it its not enough for Audio. Boy, you must do some complex work.

What those rigs did was entirely different from how GPU work. DSP chips completely different from GPU hardware.

I'll save this post so I can shove it in your face on Mac OS 11 and Logic 11. It's gonna be fun. You can suffer a little latency when you mix.

Also it doesn't matter what you said about DSP chips, protools did Time-Division Multiplexing which is exactly what you need to do in order to overcome what you said could pose as a problem.

You couldn't be more wrong. High end music production is very common on mac pro. If anything performance can be more critical than some things like 3D since it has to be real time as opposed to rendering the output.

No actually, YOU couldn't be more wrong. High-end music production used to be very common on mac pro... If a quad-core i7 isn't enough for any type of genre YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG.

I had an 8-core 2008 Mac Pro that could take literally everything I threw at it. It nibbled 5.1 96/24 feature films like pancakes. And the retina MBP does more.

But you need to know what you are doing. If you are stacking preset EQs and mixing @32 buffer size then yeah, you probably need a 56-core Mac Pro. But the result won't be any better, you're just wasting resources.

So don't tell me that I don't have a clue what I'm talking about...

Strange isn't it that OpenCL can't be used to process audio data streams...

:cool:


It can be. But if you take a look at Logic X you'll see that plugins haven't been updated since version 5 (which ran on windows)
 
. Maybe thermally the current design couldn't cope with dual CPUs?

For this specific case ( diameter and height )? It won't physically fit. The second CPU package is almost useless without another set of DIMM slots.
Go take a peak at the "memory" section of the Mac Pro overview. (hmm, managed to find a static link. So

memory.jpg

http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/

)

The DIMMs are about as tall as the whole logic board the one CPU is sitting on. Where going to find room for 4 more of those? That single logic board the CPU is sitting on can't hold another CPU. The stuff you can see that you are moving out of the way would more likely double than be able to shove aside somewhere else.

Even if you could "steal" the logic board space from the space one of the GPU cards is taking up I doubt QPI links are going to traverse logical board boundaries well. So would likely have to be same board.


For a dual CPU logic board you'd need a substantially bigger power supply (if still want dual GPUs also ) , bigger fan (wider and/or more ) , taller ( two different DIMM stacks ) design. Probably would need two different thermal cores as the GPUs wouldn't be as tall as the extended CPU board. The glut of PCIe lanes would beg the question of just one storage device. Overall, it is probably at the tipping point of flipping back to a rectangle and multiple fans to get things to fit well.

Three major power consumers gets you a naturally to the triangle shape. Since need to cool both inner and outer sides of the triangle it is easy to over both with a larger circle. Hence the core design depenency flow.

four elements start to push at more rectangular shapes and solutions. Two thermal cores with circular tops bound by an enclosing rectangle.( like a house chimmney for a furnance & fireplace ).





I suspect that isn't the reason though as it could have been designed from the start to handle a dual CPU config. Most likely its cost/revenue decision.

It is more so it would have required two different cases with different fans , power supplies , thermal core(s) , etc. Detached from the single CPU package model the number of duals sold probably were not viable to Apple. That isn't particularly "new" since even in old design Apple didn't float two different cases for the "Mac Pro" class solutions. The CPU+RAM daughterboard was designed to promote reuse between single/dual configs.
 
What are the ram requirements on the nMP?

For example if I had 4GB dimms in slots 1,2,3, I am guessing I cannot stick a 32 or 16 GB dimm in slot 4.

They definitely all have to be either unbufferred or registered. The larger DIMMs tend to be registered right now. For example

".. Installation of 16GB modules requires all previous lower density modules to be removed. You cannot mix Registered and Unbuffered memory in the same system. "
http://www.crucial.com/store/listparts.aspx?model=Mac Pro (Late 2013)

32GB DIMMs are exactly practical for most users right now. ( should change in 2014 )

Or do they all need to be the same size 4 x "N"GB's ?
For now pragmatically yes after you get to certain sizes where is market says there aren't any unbuffered options anymore.

Or does anything go?

Historically, Apple has had requirements. Joe Random's DIMMs aren't necessarily up to spec.
 
I'll take you down one by one because I don't like people telling me how things work without any proper argument.



Many composers are technically inept and don't know how fast drives and DFD works, where SSD drives via TB extensions excel and stomp the current mac pro.

Big orchestral libraries?

Oh come on, I can run a full orchestra (or two) on my retina MBP from my internal drive. And a superior 2.0 fully loaded at that. And I only have 16GB of RAM. Its funny what fast hard drives did. You don't need to load samples in RAM anymore, because SSD are blazing fast, seek time is ridiculous.

So don't give me crap about having to have fully loaded garbage in RAM + additional SSD to have it stream. You could pull an orchestra off with a 7k2 rpm drive and 16GB of RAM. Dual SSDs + 32GB of RAM isn't enough? Get another damn job because you have no clue how instrumentation works on a theoretic level. If you need 150 violins at the same time to make it sound proper you are doing it wrong

Also, physical modeling. It runs on CPU, not RAM and SSD.

But hey whatever, Mac Pro 2013 is more than well-fed on the RAM and SSD department. each thunderbolt port takes 20gbit throughput meaning you can connect 2 PCIe SSDs on each port. But I take it its not enough for Audio. Boy, you must do some complex work.



I'll save this post so I can shove it in your face on Mac OS 11 and Logic 11. It's gonna be fun. You can suffer a little latency when you mix.

Also it doesn't matter what you said about DSP chips, protools did Time-Division Multiplexing which is exactly what you need to do in order to overcome what you said could pose as a problem.



No actually, YOU couldn't be more wrong. High-end music production used to be very common on mac pro... If a quad-core i7 isn't enough for any type of genre YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG.

I had an 8-core 2008 Mac Pro that could take literally everything I threw at it. It nibbled 5.1 96/24 feature films like pancakes. And the retina MBP does more.

But you need to know what you are doing. If you are stacking preset EQs and mixing @32 buffer size then yeah, you probably need a 56-core Mac Pro. But the result won't be any better, you're just wasting resources.

So don't tell me that I don't have a clue what I'm talking about...




It can be. But if you take a look at Logic X you'll see that plugins haven't been updated since version 5 (which ran on windows)

You are so right about everything you have ever done, said or thought. I have learned so much about audio, about life, from your posts. Thank you for taking your valuable time to share your knowledge with the ignorant.
 
So looking over these benchmarks, we can start to see which configurations are going to be useful for which people.

For CPUs, if you're single-threaded for most of your work, save money and get the 4 core, though you can get a slight boost with 8-core for more money (as for why, I think maybe the significantly larger L3 cache has something to do with that). The 6-core is almost useless since it costs more money but provides no benefit for single-thread operations. The 12-core will actually slow you down.

If you're multi-threaded like crazy, the 12-core is your best bet. The 8-core might be more economical, and is particularly attractive if you also have a lot of single-threaded software, but you'll have to figure that out for yourself. The 6-core and 4-core CPUs will probably be quite disappointing, especially if you're coming from a previous model 12 core.

As for GPUs, that will really depend on how much OpenCL your software is optimized for. A 4-core with two D700s may blow away a 12-core with two D300s depending on your software. Once we know pricing for the D500, either it'll be a good economical choice over the D700, or entirely useless. My guess is, though, people will mostly be buying the D300 or the D700, just like not many will be buying the 6-core Xeon.

All-in-all, we're going to have 12 different combinations of Mac Pros, and quite a few of them are going to be "best" for different use cases. The high end for one application may be the low end for another. We'll probably never see breakdowns of which configurations sold better than others, but it should be interesting to see some real-world benchmarks using real productivity software in the weeks after the new Mac Pro finally comes out.
 
You are so right about everything you have ever done, said or thought. I have learned so much about audio, about life, from your posts. Thank you for taking your valuable time to share your knowledge with the ignorant.

Typical response of someone with no real argument behind his claims, half-assed attempt at sarcasm.

At least I try to explain while you guys only cry like little bitches about the new Mac Pro being so bad for audio. Guess what, it's not. It's going to scream bleeding ***** when developers decide to bring DAW up to speed.
 
Stuff connected externally still needs its own separate cooling system, power supply, etc. etc.

White it's true most Mac Pro users probably have a bunch of stuff outside the box anyway (I certainly do), you need to consider the cost of all those external enclosures, Thunderbolt cables, and so on. That stuff gets added on to the top of whatever new Mac Pro somebody's getting. And while (one would hope) these are money-making machines for people, you still have to include the extra up front cost (and even actual availability, Thunderbolt isn't popular) when you're comparing this workstation with other workstations available. Or maybe somebody else will. But until that happens, Thunderbolt just isn't as nice an option has having a bunch of slots built-in.

Now, we'll see what happens when this finally comes out. Maybe Apple will release a nice set of affordable Thunderbolt 2.0 enclosures in different sizes people can buy with their new Mac Pro, with a single power supply and everything else they'd need in the box.

Did you just wrote apple and affordable in the same sentence????
 
I'm a tech geek and software developer, but I don't work in the video/3d modeling/media industry. I don't understand the point of this machine's focus. Can someone with the requisite experience and knowledge comment.

1)Why is Apple getting rid of the dual-CPU architecture of the last gen and moving to a single CPU? This seems completely counter-productive as much of the clientele using the machine wants as much CPU performance as possible for 3D rendering, pro video/audio compositing/rendering, etc.

2) Why is Apple going from including really weak, consumer GPUs to high-end professional OpenGL focused GPUs as standard? and Why are they including 2 by default?


I understand that Adobe's creative suite has greatly improved their support of GPUs, but do professionals actually use GPUs (via OpenCL or whateveR) to do production rendering/encoding? As I understand it, both video encoding (Adobe Premier, Final Cut Pro) and 3D rendering (Maya, Cinema 4D, whatever) is still done on the CPU because although the GPU could be much faster, the algorithms used on the CPU result in much better image quality. Are the GPUs just used for working/preview purposes and then final rendering is done on their local CPU or a server farm?

Perhaps more importantly, can any of these programs actually use TWO GPUs at once (akin to SLI/Crossfire with 3D gaming)?

It seems to me that dual CPUs in a workstation are far more useful than dual GPUs, at least with OpenCL still in its infancy.

Why do you think Apple didn't just keep both CPUs AND do dual-GPUs?
 
I'm a tech geek and software developer, but I don't work in the video/3d modeling/media industry. I don't understand the point of this machine's focus. Can someone with the requisite experience and knowledge comment.

1)Why is Apple getting rid of the dual-CPU architecture of the last gen and moving to a single CPU? This seems completely counter-productive as much of the clientele using the machine wants as much CPU performance as possible for 3D rendering, pro video/audio compositing/rendering, etc.

2) Why is Apple going from including really weak, consumer GPUs to high-end professional OpenGL focused GPUs as standard? and Why are they including 2 by default?


I understand that Adobe's creative suite has greatly improved their support of GPUs, but do professionals actually use GPUs (via OpenCL or whateveR) to do production rendering/encoding? As I understand it, both video encoding (Adobe Premier, Final Cut Pro) and 3D rendering (Maya, Cinema 4D, whatever) is still done on the CPU because although the GPU could be much faster, the algorithms used on the CPU result in much better image quality. Are the GPUs just used for working/preview purposes and then final rendering is done on their local CPU or a server farm?

Perhaps more importantly, can any of these programs actually use TWO GPUs at once (akin to SLI/Crossfire with 3D gaming)?

It seems to me that dual CPUs in a workstation are far more useful than dual GPUs, at least with OpenCL still in its infancy.

Why do you think Apple didn't just keep both CPUs AND do dual-GPUs?

The answer to #1 and #2 are the same. GPUs are advancing at a much greater rate than CPUs, and optimized software can get a much greater speed improvement out of more GPUs than more CPUs.

OpenCL code will be sent off to any CPUs or GPUs your computer has on hand, that can handle the calculations the fastest. Programs running OpenCL code will absolutely run on two GPUs at once. No Crossfire/SLI is needed, the operating system simply sends related (but independent) tasks off to separate GPUs, just as it would send tasks off to more than one core of your CPU. OpenCL code can still run on CPUs, too, but in many cases the sort of operations OpenCL is running run much faster on GPUs. This is because GPUs are set up to run a lot of simple operations in parallel, the sort that's important for 3D gaming, but in abstraction, those sorts of operations are also useful for other kinds of computing work, too. Processing an image, or video (lots of images put together), isn't so different from rendering a 3D model. A lot of scientific work also depends on a lot of those sorts of operations. By putting all that work onto hardware that's been optimized for that sort of work, you can get significant performance boosts.

While not every task of every program will run better through OpenCL on a GPU, the more tasks you can send to the GPU, the faster the program will run. GPUs remain specialized hardware, whereas CPUs are general-purpose. It's all about identifying where the specialized hardware is specialized, and letting it do what it does best.
 
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