A look at MBP after the Surface Pro event

Discussion in 'Alternatives to Mac Hardware' started by aevan, May 23, 2017.

  1. aevan macrumors 68000

    aevan

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    #1
    “This isn’t just a processor change. We did take Kaby Lake, it’s the latest generation, of course. But it’s the integrated SSD on the motherboard. It’s the fundamental architecture changes that we do in Windows and Surface." - Panos Panay, head of Microsoft Surface

    So, I guess when Microsoft solders the SSD to the motherboard, they tout it as a feature.

    Also, when they make a device intended for creative professionals and put 4Gb RAM in the first two tiers (yup, this is what you get when you buy a Surface Pro m3 or i5 128Gb) and don't offer more than 16Gb on either the Surface Pro or the Surface Book - that is alright.

    I would LOVE to see the reaction here if Apple made ANY Mac with 4Gb in 2017. Let alone one with Pro in the name.

    Btw, the pen is now sold separately for $99. I see MS fans are already saying this is a good choice, because "not everyone needs a pen". Of course, we remember the comments when we learned the iPad Pro doesn't come with Pencil in the box.


    Just for the record, I like the new Surface Pro. The new pen seems like a massive upgrade and it looks like a great tool for artists and creatives. But if just made me think of all those "it's not a pro device because RAM" posts when MBPs came out.


    4Gb.
     
  2. keysofanxiety macrumors 604

    keysofanxiety

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    #2
    And don't forget the pricing either. They'd have a field day with that.

    There seems to be a lot less media fallout when, say, a Microsoft update bricks loads of systems or causes a world of issues. Possibly because people expect that; it's Windows, after all. Perhaps it's because people hold Apple to a higher standard. Or maybe a lot of people just relish any negative Apple news; certainly it seems that way on this site at least.
     
  3. ApolloBoy macrumors 6502a

    ApolloBoy

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    #3
    No USB-C or Thunderbolt either. I can sort of understand Microsoft's rationale for holding off on USB-C, but when every other computer manufacturer is doing it...
     
  4. aevan thread starter macrumors 68000

    aevan

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    #4
    This.

    Apple bashing gets attention.
    --- Post Merged, May 23, 2017 ---
    Lol, btw, they have an USB-C dongle :)

    Not kidding.
     
  5. mrex macrumors 68020

    mrex

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    #5
    not sure what was the purpose of this post.. microsoft doesnt control windows machines and surface isnt the only windows machine, so who really cares? you can pickup another windows machine that suit better for you.

    macbook pro is the only macbook pro on the market and that is the point. people whine because they cant buy a laptop with osx from other manufacturers and they have to live in the apple stupidity...
     
  6. ZapNZs macrumors 68000

    ZapNZs

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    #6
    This is a meager update in almost every respect.

    I don't personally consider the Surface Pro to be a product for creative professionals - at least not in the configurations you are talking about. I consider it to be a product for business usage, and it does quite well in this role IMO. The lack of USB-C/Thunderbolt is a bit of a disappointment, given TB3 can do everything the existing Mini Display Port can, plus a boat load more.

    Just like with Apple, I think the choice to solder the SSD to the logic board is ridiculous, and based on some rationale other than functionality. I think Microsoft deserves equal criticism for this decision.
     
  7. macjunk(ie) macrumors 6502a

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    #7
    First of all, I thought we all agreed that the "Pro" nomenclature is just fluff nowadays? Many manufacturers are guilty of it. So lets leave it at that.

    With the Surface Pro, Microsoft is trying to hit many birds with a stone ..... unapologetically! Some people might just want to use it as a tablet, some might want to replace their laptops with it. Similar to what Apple is doing with their iPad Pro.

    So a 4GB RAM might be totally OK for someone who only intends to use it as a tablet. Someone intending to replace their laptop might plonk in for the 16GB RAM model.

    In my view, soldered SSDs and RAM are a problem in full fledged PRO laptops...like the 15" Macbook Pro. I don't think people get too worried over soldered stuff in laptops like Macbook Air OR Asus Ultrabooks OR iPad Pros OR Surface Pros. These laptops make that compromise because they are targeting the ultra portable market. Hell....Surface is targeting the tablet market to a certain extent!
    With Apple, the 15" MacBook Pro need not be an ultra-portable....it could just be a reasonably portable laptop.

    The pen sell seems like a money grab but we will have to see the final pricing on the product. Anyway, Microsoft's Surface products seem to have learned their pricing model from Apple (on a side note: even Google's Pixel).

    Lack of USB-C just sucks. The dongle sucks even more.

    The biggest difference between this and the iPad Pro is that this device CAN replace a laptop, the iPad Pro can't owing to its handicapped OS.

    Another big difference, we can choose not to buy these products at all and simply opt for alternatives in the same space made by Samsung, Huawei etc. With Apple, the problem is lack of choice.
     
  8. Mr. Dee macrumors 65816

    Mr. Dee

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    #8
    Its a refresh and the lack of USB C is likely to appease enterprise customers who have a lot of investments in legacy peripherals. Interestingly, there is a USB C dongle for those who need it. In comparison to the iPad Pro 12.9, the Surface Pro still holds a significant edge. Its running a full desktop operating system. I have read all the reviews and thoughts here on Macrumors and major websites; the iPad Pro's achilles heal is iOS. Its just not optimized for it, stretched apps and apps rarely updated by third party devs. Also, it lacks the robust user experience of a desktop OS like macOS or Windows 10. Hopefully iOS 11 brings it on par by providing a richer experience for multi-tasking, file management.
     
  9. GtrDude macrumors regular

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    #9
    My biggest complaint against the MBP 2016 and the reason I returned it is the keyboard.
    I love my 2014 Air but hate the new Pro keyboard.
    So I went to Lenovo X1 Carbon. I use the keyboard 6-8 hrs a day. It's gotta be very comfortable for all that work.

    Had they not made the keyboard travel less than a millimeter with fake clicky sounds I probably would have not returned it.
     
  10. leman macrumors 604

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    #10
    I'd say the purpose of this post is to point out the apparent double standards. People cry that Apple's notebooks are underperforming, but when competitors release laptops that exclusively use 15W CPU and lack high-speed external connectivity, they are praised for innovation. People complain that Apple is dumbing down and locking down macOS (which still hasn't happened after 5 years of complaining btw) , but then when a competitor releases a completely locked down laptop, its praised as "great machine for education". People complain about the iMac being an all-in-one and lacking GPU power, but when a competitor releases an extremely highly priced all-in-one that uses mobile CPUs, its being praised as the best computer for designers. Finally, people say that Apple computers are overpriced but when a competitor releases laptop that offers weaker and cheaper hardware at the same price point, people describe it as a "reasonably priced premium laptop".

    No, aevan is spot-on here — bashing Apple is fashionable, so thats what people do.
     
  11. Queen6 macrumors 603

    Queen6

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    #11
    Liking the new Surface Pro; to me Microsoft are simply offering a lot of permutations, from basic educational use to high spec ultrabook. You also have to account for the OS as well as Windows 10 is designed to run on much lower level hardware, so for some 4Gb will be more than adequate.

    Pen as an additional purchase, not a fan of that, think it should be in the box, although it does look to be a significant improvement on previous. Port situation is pretty much the same, with the Surface dock offering expansion, something Apple should have offered with the MBP from day one. For most business types USB C currently offers little more than inconvenience and I suspect education similarly. USB C is still in it's infancy can does present issues, undoubtedly it's the future, however for those needing to deliver "now" from my own experience of over two years of using USB C it remains to be problematic, even with Apple's own adaptors & dongles.

    I will certainly be looking at one as a replacement for my outgoing Retina MacBook, sadly last of my Mac's used professionally thx to Apple's predominant consumer focus, equally give the few who are using the Mac professionally I can see Apple's point as they need to sell units. Clearly Surface Pro is compromised as are all portables, equally as such it's not a bad compromise as long as your usage matches the devices capabilities.

    As for the "Pro" term near meaningless these days, solely sales and marketing and or a differentiator between tiers. A true professional chooses the hardware that meets their needs, not something with "Pro" slapped on the box, that's just for the regular customers :) Personally I was pleased when at one point Apple dropped the "MacBook Pro" off the bezel as it pure 80"s "cheese" at best...

    Also interested to see where Microsoft goes with the Surface Book, as an owner and user in a professional environment, very impressed, new Surface Pro is certainly encouraging :apple: Right now Surface Book is too heavy to be classed as an Ultraportable, yet it offers features few others match...

    Q-6
    --- Post Merged, May 24, 2017 ---
    X1 Carbon Superb keyboard, best in the ultraportable class. Same as someone that generates significant technical documents the keyboard is an important factor in the purchasing decision. I went with a Surface Book last year, as I wanted the 2 in 1 flexibility and an "awesome" keyboard, with an aspect ratio that complemented my workflow. Ports & Keyboard killed the MBP for my usage. Am ok with an Ultraportable like my Retina Macbook having such a keyboard for obvious reasons, however not my primary notebook, just no...

    X1 Carbon is still in my sights as my backup system as is the new Surface Pro, maybe the X1 will pull ahead as I don't need the 2 in 1 functionality with both devices.

    Q-6
     
  12. Janichsan macrumors 65816

    Janichsan

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    #12
    On the other hand: the Surface Pro starts at 950 €. The new rMBP? At 1700 €.

    Even the closest equivalent to the lowest rMBP is still cheaper with 1450 €.
     
  13. ugru macrumors 6502

    ugru

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    #13
    The iPad Pro has 4 GB Ram and has "Pro" in the name...

    Probably you are a bit confused about the Microsoft line...

    The Surface Pro is a Tablet, it is in the same space of the iPad Pro, with the difference that it has a full OS and an intel processor....

    [​IMG]


    The Surface Laptop is a Laptop like the MB or the rMBP...

    [​IMG]

    So, you should have post your rant in the iPad section of this forum...
     
  14. aevan, May 24, 2017
    Last edited: May 24, 2017

    aevan thread starter macrumors 68000

    aevan

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    #14
    Microsoft touts Surface Pro as the "most versatile laptop"

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-pro/overview

    It also runs full Windows 10 Pro, which is not a lightweight mobile operating system like iOS. It doesn't matter what class the product is if it's a lousy experience. If Apple made any macOS product with 4Gb RAM, even if it was a tablet, people would freak - that's my point. Just as they freaked that MBP doesn't have more than 16Gb RAM (which is why this "rant" is here).

    Finally, the Surface Laptop also comes with 4Gb RAM in lowest config, thank you for mentioning it.
    --- Post Merged, May 24, 2017 ---
    You have mentioned you have a Surface Book and use it in a professional environment. So, my question - really, just asking - how is Apple "focused on consumers" (as opposed to 'pros') and Microsoft isn't? Surface Book also tops out at 16Gb, it has more or less similar specs - the only difference is the ports, but that is a whole different topic. It also costs the same as a 15" MBP, but comes with a dual-core CPU.

    I ask because I think Microsoft is closer to Apple in terms of design, marketing, even philosophy of design then ever before. From proprietary ports and limited upgrade and customization options, low self-repairability, branding, specs, design - to unusual, sometimes controversial design decisions (alcantara laptop palm rest). They are also the same when it comes to pricing.

    I like this new Microsoft - but I really don't see how it's different from Apple in terms of consumer or pro focus.

    BTW, I believe both companies make the best products on the market for a lot of professionals - not all, but a lot.
     
  15. Queen6, May 24, 2017
    Last edited: May 24, 2017

    Queen6 macrumors 603

    Queen6

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    #15
    Cherry picking me thinks; my midrange Surface Book with i7 cost me just $60 more than the 13" MBP non TB with i7. Apple's decision ditch relevant ports, forcing the use of dongles is a big turn off for many, as is the deliberate reduction in battery capacity.

    Keyboard is subjective, equally not great IMHO for thouse that need to write significant content. I travel extensively just heading home after two months and ten countries. Yet to see a new MBP in use, older MBP & Air, SP4, regular notebooks yes, even the occasional Surface Book.

    Even met a colleague in Malaysia, who is a self proclaimed "massive" fan of Apple, pretty much owns all they produce. Same sentiment 2016 MBP has become useless for many roles for the same reasons, hence his 2015 15" MBP remaining.

    It may work for you, equally is simply doesn't for many others. Certainty in my circles Apple has simply succeed in loosing a great deal of credibility, alienating many, who are now looking to switch platforms...

    Q-6
     
  16. aevan thread starter macrumors 68000

    aevan

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    #16
    Yes, but these are all subjective things. I understand what you're saying, you don't like the ports or the keyboard. And sure, it can be a turn off for many.

    But how did you go from "Me and my Malaysian colleague don't like it" to "Apple is focused on consumers and not the pros"? In all measurable things it is practically the same as a Surface Book, everything else is a matter of personal taste.

    Again, I didn't ask you why you don't like the new MBP - it's perfectly clear and I will not debate you there. But I am asking how come Microsoft is aimed at the professionals, while Apple isn't - when they make almost the same kind of product (and you happen to like one and dislike the other, which is perfectly fine).
     
  17. Janichsan macrumors 65816

    Janichsan

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    #17
    I can't reproduce that: the mid-range i7 Surface Pro (8 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD) costs $1600 for me. The equivalent 13" non-TB rMBP $1800.
     
  18. aevan thread starter macrumors 68000

    aevan

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    #18
    He was talking about the Surface Book, not Surface Pro.
     
  19. Janichsan macrumors 65816

    Janichsan

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    #19
    Ah, right. My mistake.
     
  20. Queen6 macrumors 603

    Queen6

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    #20
    Let's just put it this way "when it doesn't work" solely due to dongles and adapters, it comes across as very far from professional when dealing with major multinationals.

    Ever considered why notebooks specifically designed for professional use, have these ports, one word reliability. Apple has now lost that aspect...

    Q-6
     
  21. aevan thread starter macrumors 68000

    aevan

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    #21
    Ok, so if you base your assumption that Apple is focusing solely on consumers and Microsoft also targets pros - because of the USB-C ports - we'll just disagree completely and leave it there. Thanks for the replies.
     
  22. ZapNZs macrumors 68000

    ZapNZs

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    #22
    Agreed. My SP3 replaces a laptop for an ultra portable with a touchscreen and they have enough power to run reasonably intensive desktop-class Apps (with the i5 or i7/8gb/256ssd) and an OS that excels at multi-tasking. However, the iPad Pro cannot do this. That's why I bought a SP3. If the iPad Pro had OS X, I would have purchased it in a heartbeat. The Surface Pro 3+ revisions are great systems, but it certainly has shortcomings.

    With this revision, the lack of USB-C/Thunderbolt3, is pretty silly. Microsoft could have removed the Mini DisplayPort out, replaced it with a USB-C/TB3 port, also keeping the existing USB-A port, and would have given the design for greater capability and versatility, for both existing enterprise Clients and creative professionals looking for faster IO.

    Like the MBP, Microsoft has gone out of their way to make the SurfacePro nearly impossible to update or service, and logistically complicated when it comes to data recovery or secure deletion should the logic board fail but the hard drive not. For something like a Chromebook, such details are a moot point. For something someone may invest 20+ times the pricing of a Chromebook and use it in a very different way (i.e., cloud storage may not be viable for backing up 2+ TB, NAS when on the go might not be possible with limited connectivity, and portable direct attached storage might also not be convenient), that could be another story.
     
  23. maflynn Moderator

    maflynn

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    #23
    I'm not going to get into the semantics of Surface Pro is or isn't a pro device but I will say its superior to the iPad in a number of ways, given that its running a desktop level OS and can connect to peripherals, something that the iPad cannot easily do. The Surface Pro gives you a laptop experience, in a tablet form factor, where as the iPad gives you an experience of a large iPhone.

    Should this latest iteration use USB-C, yes imo MS seems to prefer waiting longer then others before embracing a standard, but even with the older USB connector, its far more useful then the iPad.

    Unlike the MacBook, the Surface Pro doesn't a core-m processor and so performance will be superior to the MacBook and be just as portable.
     
  24. Queen6 macrumors 603

    Queen6

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    #24
    No, I just believe one is more focused in that direction than the other...

    Q-6
     
  25. aevan thread starter macrumors 68000

    aevan

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    #25
    I didn't read they reduced the size of Surface Pro, but if it's the same or similar as Surface Pro 4, it's not just as portable. MacBook is a lot smaller.

    And, it's like some of you guys are happy that any Apple product is worse at something than X. See, it's better than an iPad, it's better than a MacBook, it's better than a MacBook Air!! I mean, it's a great device, I am actually thinking of getting one - but I can't shake the feeling that this rooting for MS is a part of some narrative that some people are trying to push here.

    It's just Microsoft made a cool device that will be great for a lot of people, especially artists. There are people who will find a MacBook more useful, and there are people who will find a Surface Pro more useful.

    Base model of Surface Pro uses core-m, btw.
     

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