A mode vs M mode

[simsaladimbamba]

Spinach cat? Yet another internet meme that has evaded me, I guess...

Hopefully not, as it is my invention. I like spinach and cats. It sounds better in German (Spinatkatze, or better, Spinatenkatze). It is just a word I made up while watching the neighbour's cat looking out the window and me eating spinach.

There, no meme you need to avoid. Only gibberish.

 

[VaughnA]

You can get the same settings, but there are no guarantees when you're in a semi-manual mode. So long as you're letting the camera make decisions, it will be possible to get an exposure that is not of your own choosing.

So let's say I center my cameras meter in manual mode and it says F5.6 and 1/100 is the correct exposure. In the same exact situation I'm in Av and choose F5.6 as my aperture the camera will set the shutter to 1/100 will it not?

I guess all of those years with my K1000 and manually setting exposure didn't learn me anything.

 

[Doylem]

So let's say I center my cameras meter in manual mode and it says F5.6 and 1/100 is the correct exposure. In the same exact situation I'm in Av and choose F5.6 as my aperture the camera will set the shutter to 1/100 will it not?

I guess all of those years with my K1000 and manually setting exposure didn't learn me anything.

The camera doesn't know, for example, whether you want to expose for the shadows or the highlights... so tweaking the exposure values, manually, is just one way of trying to get the effect you want...

 

[Phrasikleia]

So let's say I center my cameras meter in manual mode and it says F5.6 and 1/100 is the correct exposure. In the same exact situation I'm in Av and choose F5.6 as my aperture the camera will set the shutter to 1/100 will it not?

I guess all of those years with my K1000 and manually setting exposure didn't learn me anything.

It sounds to me as though you understand manual mode better than the semi-manual ones. What happens in a semi-manual mode is that the camera will meter for what it thinks you want, which may or may not be 1/100s, in your example. Doylem summed it up well:

The camera doesn't know, for example, whether you want to expose for the shadows or the highlights... so tweaking the exposure values, manually, is just one way of trying to get the effect you want...

 

[Designer Dale]

Threads like this remind me of how easy it is to get lazy with digital.

I learned on a view camera and film SLR before even autofocus existed. I used a spot meter to read the highlights and shadows, then applied the Zone system to decide where to set the exposure and adjusted my chemical developer time and temperature to get a reasonably good negative.

My current camera, a Canon XSi, dosen't have the best light meter so when I do switch to full manual I rely on some old photo tricks. If its a clear blue NorthWest sky, I pick the aperture I want to use and point my camera to the sky for the reading. This sets the camera for a neutral gray. I enter this into the manual settings and watch the histogram. For landscape work this will give a nice exposure. I also have a gray card. I take a shot of it with the f/stop I want and put that info into the manual settings.

None of this is true full manual, though. You still need to rely on a computer of sorts to determine the setting you base the manual stuff off of. Either the in camera computer or a hand held computer (light meter).

And thus I often shoot aperture value...

Dale

 

[Phrasikleia]

None of this is true full manual, though. You still need to rely on a computer of sorts to determine the setting you base the manual stuff off of. Either the in camera computer or a hand held computer (light meter).

I'm trying to imagine what "true full manual" would be then...perhaps it would involve a sable brush, some good oil pigments, and a stretched canvas?

And thus I often shoot aperture value...

Dale

Not following your logic on that one, but I'm sure you have your reasons. Lots of people take great photos with Av, Tv, or what have you. I just don't have much luck with those modes. I occasionally try them out of curiosity and quickly go running back to manual mode. Those semi-auto modes remind me of driving on black ice...squirrely and hard to control.

 

[LumbermanSVO]

Those semi-auto modes remind me of driving on black ice...squirrely and hard to control.

Isn't that what makes it fun?

When I'm shooting with the tripod I'll go to M and take my time. But if I'm shooting on the fly, especially wildlife, I'll go to Av, keep an eye on the histogram, and adjust the Exposure Compensation accordingly.

 

[VaughnA]

It sounds to me as though you understand manual mode better than the semi-manual ones. What happens in a semi-manual mode is that the camera will meter for what it thinks you want, which may or may not be 1/100s, in your example. Doylem summed it up well:

Not on any of the SLR's or DSLR's that I've owned. Metering is the same unless you are using one of the Scene modes or Program, then the camera chooses the metering mode and may adjust exposure depending on the scene mode (fast action etc). Av and Tv on all of the cameras that I've owned (Pentax and Nikon) the metering mode is still selected separately. Av & Tv have been around since the early-mid 70's where the computerization was minimal. If you select spot then that's how it meters, if you select matrix then that's how it meters. Now on some older lenses on modern bodies you only get certain metering modes but in that case you are going to be forced to use manual mode in most cases anyway.

 

[snberk103]

In either M or one of the 'auto' modes you are using the camera's meter to set the exposure.

I think we understand the situation differently. In Av / Tv mode I pick the f/stop or shutter speed and the camera evaluates the scene and decides how to set the other setting (shutter speed or f/stop) to make what it thinks is a proper exposure, without consideration for other factors. The camera computer becomes a slave to the camera's light meter - regardless of how smart it is. In M mode I merely take note of what the camera light meter believes is the proper exposure, but I set the exposure myself - which may be the same as the light meter's suggestion or not.

To get the same control in Av or Tv mode you would need to evaluate the scene yourself and make the adjustments with the +/- buttons. Which in the end would give you exactly the same result but adds a few more steps. That said, I use this method more often than M mode ... see below for details. But it is not the same as using M mode. In M mode my grey cells make all exposure judgements, using the input of the light meter. In Av or Tv mode I let the camera make exposure judgements, even if I'm keeping a tight leash on it.

In the end the result may be the same, but the difference is how you got there.

If I center the meter in manual mode it will be a defined set of combinations of aperture and shutter speed. ... I didn't mean to start a flame war...

No flame wars in this forum... photographers are nice people! Just for the record though, I have been doing this for more than a few years.

... Using Av or Tv just makes it quicker and easier for most instances.

And - I agree with you. If I am outside I rarely use M. I find I can work faster by using the exposure compensation setting with - in my case - the Av mode. For me, most times the characteristics of the scene aren't changing much once I start, but the light conditions may be changing. Since I'm generally on a tripod I can let the shutter speed drift as the light changes. I also like to use the exposure lock on my camera. So I meter for a neutral scene, then lock it and point the camera at the scene I want to capture. Quite often though I will slip into M mode because - well, it's just easier sometimes.

In my studio I am manual. Period.

[For the sake of this discussion I don't count Auto-ISO as M mode. What's the point of going manual and then losing control of the ISO?]

 

[Phrasikleia]

Not on any of the SLR's or DSLR's that I've owned. Metering is the same unless you are using one of the Scene modes or Program, then the camera chooses the metering mode and may adjust exposure depending on the scene mode (fast action etc). Av and Tv on all of the cameras that I've owned (Pentax and Nikon) the metering mode is still selected separately. Av & Tv have been around since the early-mid 70's where the computerization was minimal. If you select spot then that's how it meters, if you select matrix then that's how it meters. Now on some older lenses on modern bodies you only get certain metering modes but in that case you are going to be forced to use manual mode in most cases anyway.

Sorry, I see now that what I wrote was not very clear. Of course the metering doesn't change, but the camera doesn't know what part of the scene is most important to you--it doesn't know what to meter for; unless you always spot meter, and that spot doesn't change between shots, the camera has to guess what part of the scene to favor. If it's a flat scene with a narrow histogram, it might not matter, but otherwise, the camera won't know which end of the histogram you want to protect and to what degree. If the light is changing or the scene itself is changing, the camera may make a decision to average the light in a way that would not be optimal for your desired outcome. So the easiest way to make sure you get what you want is to take the guesswork out of it: just dial in the exposure. At least, I find that's the easiest way to do it.

 

[VaughnA]

Sorry, I see now that what I wrote was not very clear. Of course the metering doesn't change, but the camera doesn't know what part of the scene is most important to you--it doesn't know what to meter for; unless you always spot meter, and that spot doesn't change between shots, the camera has to guess what part of the scene to favor. If it's a flat scene with a narrow histogram, it might not matter, but otherwise, the camera won't know which end of the histogram you want to protect and to what degree. If the light is changing or the scene itself is changing, the camera may make a decision to average the light in a way that would not be optimal for your desired outcome. So the easiest way to make sure you get what you want is to take the guesswork out of it: just dial in the exposure. At least, I find that's the easiest way to do it.

I think we're headed the same way. The meter even in AV or TV works just the same way and meters in the same manner, at least on my cameras. The difference is that in Manual if you spot meter and move the subject the exposure stays the same. In Av for instance you'll need to hit the ae-l to lock the exposure. It still reads in exactly the same way. I consider Av & Tv manual modes, IF and ONLY IF you don't use Auto ISO and you either lock or meter off of the same subject.

I just find it easier to use exposure compensation than adjusting exposure by remembering to meter differently. For instance if I'm out shooting in snow I can just dial in about +1-1.3 ev compensation and I'll be set without having to remember to adjust every shot for the compensation manually.

I wish we were sitting at a bar with a beer, it would be a much more fun discussion.

 

[Phrasikleia]

I think we're headed the same way. The meter even in AV or TV works just the same way and meters in the same manner, at least on my cameras. The difference is that in Manual if you spot meter and move the subject the exposure stays the same. In Av for instance you'll need to hit the ae-l to lock the exposure. It still reads in exactly the same way. I consider Av & Tv manual modes, IF and ONLY IF you don't use Auto ISO and you either lock or meter off of the same subject.

I just find it easier to use exposure compensation than adjusting exposure by remembering to meter differently. For instance if I'm out shooting in snow I can just dial in about +1-1.3 ev compensation and I'll be set without having to remember to adjust every shot for the compensation manually.

I wish we were sitting at a bar with a beer, it would be a much more fun discussion.

Yes! I very much agree with that last sentence!

I just remembered that I have a very relevant and recent anecdote to share--a shot I missed just last week because of an experiment with Av mode. I recently got a new camera, so I was trying out pretty much everything on it, which one day included Av mode. I was visiting a ranch and wanted to photograph a dog there. This was a white dog (a Great Pyr), and one late afternoon, it was walking around in some nice warm light in front of an open-sided barn. There wasn't much cloud cover, and the light was pretty constant where the dog was. She moving quite a bit, and I kept changing my position and framing differently. Between the two of us shifting around, the background behind the dog would change markedly between shots. The barn had some pens on either side and then an opening all the way through the middle, so it was very bright in the center and very dark on the sides.

I wanted to expose for the dog, which was in very stable light, but the camera in Av mode was trying to accommodate the dark pens whenever they made up more of the background; so in those shots, Av mode kept brightening the exposure, which blew out detail on the white dog. If I had just exposed manually as I usually do, I would have locked in the exposure for the dog, and the camera would never have clipped any highlights on her fur. With the exposure locked down, I would have been free to concentrate on focus, timing, and framing in what was a fairly fast-moving series of shots. There was no need for the exposure to be changing between shots, but the camera didn't know that.

Unfortunately, she walked inside the barn before I stopped fiddling with Av Mode, and I never did get a really good shot of her. These sorts of experiences are what have made me feel that manual mode is just easier and more reliable.

 

[imahawki]

A couple notes. 1) When you're doing a shoot, you want all shots from the same "shot" (i.e. if you have 10 shots of a girl in a wheat field from a low 3/4 angle, you don't want them exposed all over the map) to be exposed the same. Any automatic (even partially automatic) meetering mode will not produce consistent results, depending on how the camera averages out each shot or if you end up with the focus point (which depending on the camera mode can also be the metering spot etc.) 2) If you're shooting with manual strobes (i.e. not ETTL) you pretty much have to shoot in manual.

 

[paolo-]

I personally like Av for snapshots just because I know I'll get something half decent every time and I still have quite a bit of control over the look. M for the rest. When in Av mode I find I'm always compensating to get the correct exposure for the subject. As soon as you reframe you might have completely changed the exposure.

Let's say you want to shoot someone who's standing next to a wall on one side and the sky on the other. If you're in Av mode, you shoot and you might get that your subject is a bit overexposed. So you -.5 stops with the compensation wheel. Okay, your picture is correctly exposed. Now you reframe and only have the person with the sky as the background. You'd probably want the exposure to be the same but your camera is going to choose otherwise and you'll be overexposing the person.

Usually for the same scene, you shouldn't have to modify your exposure much and you can just use the spot meter to help you out. But if you're in Av mode, you'll start having completely different exposures.

 

[imahawki]

A much more eloquent way of stating my point #1. Thanks!

 

[VaughnA]

Yes! I very much agree with that last sentence!

I just remembered that I have a very relevant and recent anecdote to share--a shot I missed just last week because of an experiment with Av mode. I recently got a new camera, so I was trying out pretty much everything on it, which one day included Av mode. I was visiting a ranch and wanted to photograph a dog there. This was a white dog (a Great Pyr), and one late afternoon, it was walking around in some nice warm light in front of an open-sided barn. There wasn't much cloud cover, and the light was pretty constant where the dog was. She moving quite a bit, and I kept changing my position and framing differently. Between the two of us shifting around, the background behind the dog would change markedly between shots. The barn had some pens on either side and then an opening all the way through the middle, so it was very bright in the center and very dark on the sides.

I wanted to expose for the dog, which was in very stable light, but the camera in Av mode was trying to accommodate the dark pens whenever they made up more of the background; so in those shots, Av mode kept brightening the exposure, which blew out detail on the white dog. If I had just exposed manually as I usually do, I would have locked in the exposure for the dog, and the camera would never have clipped any highlights on her fur. With the exposure locked down, I would have been free to concentrate on focus, timing, and framing in what was a fairly fast-moving series of shots. There was no need for the exposure to be changing between shots, but the camera didn't know that.

Unfortunately, she walked inside the barn before I stopped fiddling with Av Mode, and I never did get a really good shot of her. These sorts of experiences are what have made me feel that manual mode is just easier and more reliable.

Interesting, with my D300 I'd just center the dog, lock the exposure with the ae-lock and it wouldn't move between shots. I wonder of some of the confusion is that some of the entry level cameras work differently than the more advanced cameras. My D300 works like a film camera, no difference between M, Av or Tv in absolute exposure. I've NEVER used any of the REAL automatic modes. I shoot primarily with Av except for sports and airshow where obviously I'll go with Tv.

All this being said, if they would make an old-school needle meter instead of the hard to see LCD stuff of today I'd shoot a lot more manual. A lot of my insistence on Av or Tv is this complaint. When I shoot landscapes I know what aperture I'm using, I could care less about the shutter speed if it is fast enough to prevent blur. Then I'll use the EV comp to take care of the small metering problems. One of the biggest problems for a lot of folks is to learn how each camera meters.

 

[snberk103]

....

I wish we were sitting at a bar with a beer, it would be a much more fun discussion.

Yes! I very much agree with that last sentence!

I've got the next round... IPAs?

...
I wanted to expose for the dog, which was in very stable light, but the camera in Av mode was trying to accommodate the dark pens whenever they made up more of the background; ...

Definitely M mode time.

Interesting, with my D300 I'd just center the dog, lock the exposure with the ae-lock and it wouldn't move between shots.

I don't know that I'd call this Av or Tv either though. It gives you the benefit of M mode. That is to say using the ae lock turns off the camera's exposure calculating computer, which is what M mode does, because the grey cells have determined what the proper exposure is from the information provided by the camera's light meter. Though it's not full manual mode either of course.

I wonder of some of the confusion is that some of the entry level cameras work differently than the more advanced cameras.

I think you may want to be careful with your comparisons... some people pay a lot of money for cameras with very simple controls but very good picture taking abilities. For instance, check out the PhaseOne cameras.

....
All this being said, if they would make an old-school needle meter instead of the hard to see LCD stuff of today I'd shoot a lot more manual.

Interesting idea. My camera shows a number (of stops) with a +/- in front. I'd much prefer a more analogue indicator - though with 1/3 stop pips as well. I grew up with a needle meter that indicated whether you were over/under exposed - but not by how much. The pips would have been nice.

 

[Phrasikleia]

Interesting, with my D300 I'd just center the dog, lock the exposure with the ae-lock and it wouldn't move between shots.

I agree with snberk103: what you describe is an override of Av mode, not a true use of Av for some specific benefit. Why bother with Av mode at all in that case?

I wonder of some of the confusion is that some of the entry level cameras work differently than the more advanced cameras.

What confusion would that be? Are you suggesting that those of us who prefer M mode are "confused" and must be using "entry level" cameras? Or am I missing something?

And what would be so different on an entry-level DSLR anyway? Don't they all have the same basic modes (Av, Tv, M), an AE-lock button, etc.?

My D300 works like a film camera, no difference between M, Av or Tv in absolute exposure.

The 'needle' will be in the same place regardless of which mode you have chosen. If you use AE-lock in either of the semi-auto modes, you are essentially overriding those modes, but the settings you will get in the first place (with the semi-auto modes) will start off with something that the camera chose for you. You then have to push it around with exposure compensation to get what you want (if a centered needle is not what you want) and then have to lock it to get it to stay put. In short, that's a rather fiddly way of imitating M mode--which is why I prefer just to use M mode to begin with.

 

[VI™]

I'm betting it's what Chase is used to shooting. Most all of his commercial work I've seen deals with big elaborate lighting setups, where control over all the camera's functions is necessary.

 

[peepboon]

I use 'P' mode for professional

 

[VaughnA]

Ok I give up.

 

[Designer Dale]

Interesting, with my D300 I'd just center the dog, lock the exposure with the ae-lock and it wouldn't move between shots. I wonder of some of the confusion is that some of the entry level cameras work differently than the more advanced cameras. My D300 works like a film camera, no difference between M, Av or Tv in absolute exposure. I've NEVER used any of the REAL automatic modes. I shoot primarily with Av except for sports and airshow where obviously I'll go with Tv.

All this being said, if they would make an old-school needle meter instead of the hard to see LCD stuff of today I'd shoot a lot more manual. A lot of my insistence on Av or Tv is this complaint. When I shoot landscapes I know what aperture I'm using, I could care less about the shutter speed if it is fast enough to prevent blur. Then I'll use the EV comp to take care of the small metering problems. One of the biggest problems for a lot of folks is to learn how each camera meters.

I'd use Exposure Lock on this too. On my canon I think it releases the lock after one shot. This is actually the correct way to use either Tv or Av mode. Pick some area of the scene that will convert to a neutral grey and take a spot reading of it. Lock the exposure setting and frame the shot. The hard part is learning to see neutral grey in a color world.

Dale

 

[Phrasikleia]

I'd use Exposure Lock on this too. On my canon I think it releases the lock after one shot. This is actually the correct way to use either Tv or Av mode. Pick some area of the scene that will convert to a neutral grey and take a spot reading of it. Lock the exposure setting and frame the shot. The hard part is learning to see neutral grey in a color world.

Dale

The point we're trying to make is that all of this fiddling being described is the long way around to imitating M mode. Why not just go for the real thing?

 

[Doylem]

The point we're trying to make is that all of this fiddling being described is the long way around to imitating M mode. Why not just go for the real thing?

When I’m shooting (landscape/location) on manual settings, I almost certainly have the camera tripod mounted. Without moving people in the scene, the ISO will probably be 100, the aperture probably f11, the composition chosen and ‘locked in’. This leaves the shutter speed as the only variable, and I’m pretty familiar with the range of settings: 1/125sec for a sunny day in England, 1/160sec for a bright sunny day, up to 1/200sec on a few days each year... down to 1/100sec or 1/80sec when the sun slips behind thin cloud, etc. If I start with the shutter speed on, say, 1/125sec, I can make ‘fine adjustments’ to the shutter speed dial with my thumb: one click left will go to 1/100sec, one click to the right will be 1/160sec... which means I don’t really need to think in terms of numbers at all, but just 'clicks' to replicate the strength and quality of the light. With the cable release in hand, I can be looking at the landscape and the light, rather than at the camera. A particular play of light might last a couple of seconds; if I’m ready I get it... if I’m faffing about with camera settings, I won’t. Altering the settings becomes intuitive, as the light changes, in the same way that driving a car become intuitive. We don’t need to think about it, we just do it...

I appreciate that my method is rather personal, maybe even a little odd. But it works for me, and it’s very simple, ‘cos it’s just me responding to the light and transferring my immediate impressions to the camera. While I’m shooting, the camera all but disappears... which I find very satisfying. We tend to put our cameras ‘centre stage’, because they’re gorgeous ‘n’ matt black ‘n’ expensive ‘n’ covered with buttons ‘n’ dials ‘n’ click wheels. But, when I’m taking pix, it’s just a window to the world. And I’d rather be looking at the world than at the window frame.

If I was shooting different subject matter, or wanted a different ‘look’ to my pix, I could meter in a very different way... maybe using one of the programmed modes, for example, for sports or wildlife. It’s up to each of us, as photographers, to find the method (or methods) that work for us. Are we happy with the quality of the pictures we’re getting? If so, fine. If not, then maybe we can think about another way of metering. A decent DSLR can be ‘set up’ in so many different ways, so there isn’t really a best way of metering... only the best way that each individual photographer discovers for him/herself... that 'delivers the goods'.

 

[paolo-]

The point we're trying to make is that all of this fiddling being described is the long way around to imitating M mode. Why not just go for the real thing?

Speed, I don't really see it as a lot of fiddling. If you're in a rush to shoot something in manual mode, you won't bother zone metering the scene (good on you if you're fast enough to do so, I'm fairly new to photography). I usually and up picking one thing and metering to that. Then you'll manually twist knobs until you get it the needle to 0. You'll usually have an idea of how much light there is, choose the aperture for the composition, pick an ISO according to how much light there is and finally adjust exposure time to get what you want.

With Ae lock, you're just automating that. Spot meter on something, press Ae lock, make sure the settings make sense and you're ready. No knob twisting. Ultimately, Ae lock is just an extension of Av mode, otherwise you're stuck with the exposure of what ever your meter is looking at when you're taking the shot. Let's say you're in a tunnel and have a subject on one side and want the center of the frame to be the end of the tunnel. If you're in Av mode with spot metering and don't Ae lock, you'll end up spot metering what ever is at the end of the tunnel, kind of useless.


Sure you loose some flexibility but if you're not controlling the situation or don't have the time you'll get some control over the exposure. I can see this being useful for someone like a wedding photographer. Couple shot outside; Ae lock with a spot meter on grass, focus on the eyes, compose, boom shot's taken. As you're constantly moving around and the people don't have much time to give to you it's a very good compromise.

I don't think it's a replacement to M, sometimes you do want to have full control over the exposure. Especially if it's a thought out shot. But I still think Av with Ae has it's place, it enables you to control the exposure to some extent and be much faster.