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Yes, an opinion based on nothing by your own admission, which you cling to stubbornly nonetheless. Again, please read this...

THE CONCEPT OF TINY MINORITY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD.

Actually, it's probably the most relevant point, because if you can't prove these alleged issues are affecting a significant portion of the userbase, you can't prove there is a need for your proposal.



OSX is not stable and rock solid. It's the lying about that that harms Apple's brand.

It's reasonable that a new OS should contain an element of risk. It's not reasonable to lie about that risk, even if by omission.

First of all, you have never demonstrated ANY harm to Apple's brand. I've already shown that there has been no noticeable decrease in customer satisfaction ratings for Apple, so this point is honestly irrelevant. Furthermore, this allegation of "lying" is brand new, and you have no proof of a deliberate attempt to mislead/deceive the general population.

The perception for those experiencing the problems may be that Apple is a dishonest company that does not care about it's users enough to create a web page telling them what you and I already know.

It is actually dishonest to promote a piece of software as being rock solid and reliable when the developer knows in advance it still contains many bugs and will cause calamity for many users.


Since you cannot quantify the number of users affected, nor prove a decrease in customer satisfaction as a direct result of these alleged practices, this entire point is meaningless as there is no factual support behind it.

I know posters may sincerely feel they are being supportive of Apple, but imho, that's not what resisting improvements to the customer experience are.

You're not advocating any improvements to the Customer experience though - you're advocating telling millions of people how to make their computing experiences even more complicated and stressful.

maflynn, you want to keep arguing this numbers business, because you have few other points to make.

I do agree with you that Apple may see it to be in it's interest to pretend new versions of OSX are rock solid.

You ignore the numbers arguments because they prove there is no pressing need for your proposal. You fail to demonstrate that a) there is a significant harm in the status quo, b) that this harm is a direct result of Apple failing to tell customers how to run test environments of OS X, c) there are no external factors that contribute to these alleged issues, and d) how simply adding a link will solve for the alleged harms you outline.

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Guys, this thread illustrates why I haven't bought a new Mac in 12 years. I believe the point of view all of you are expressing is held by Apple too. I can offer no other explanation.

Apologies, but you guys are not expressing the original vision of Apple, the vision that made Apple so popular.

Steve Jobs would agonize endlessly about every little detail of the design of Macs. No issue was too small for him to consider. All I'm suggesting is that the same kind of quality focus can be applied to the customer experience.

Remember the customer? You know, that person who actually funds Apple. Ya, them. It matters whether they're having a good time or not. All of them. Every last one. That's the Steve Jobs excellence attention to detail mindset.

You guys aren't supporting Apple, you're rationalizing and enabling a deterioration of the Steve Jobs mindset that made you decide to buy a Mac instead of a PC. If it's sloppy mediocrity that you want, Microsoft is still in business and happy to take your money.

You're asking Apple to fix the issues of thousands of third-party software/hardware developers by asking end users with little to no technical savvy to set up dual boot setups and test environments of OS X for alleged issues you can't even prove are significant in the number of people affected.

If you haven't even bought a Mac in 12 years (so when Jobs was still obsessing over every little detail at Apple), how are you even qualified to make these claims in the first place? Sounds to me like you're an Apple hater trying to disguise your bias behind the illusion of "helping" people.
 
Guys, this thread illustrates why I haven't bought a new Mac in 12 years.
So you're not using a mac that can run Mavericks, recommending a course of action on something that you have no experience then :confused:

What version of OSX are you using then, if you haven't purchased a Mac in 12 years?

Apologies, but you guys are not expressing the original vision of Apple, the vision that made Apple so popular.
I have little desire to express or embrace a vision of apple. I buy Macs because they're a tool and do what I want them to do. Its not a religion nor should I embrace a lifestyle or vision from a multibillion dollar corporation. I buy products that best fit my needs, and for many years Macs have done that. I stand by my original comment that OSX is rock solid.

Steve Jobs would agonize endlessly about every little detail of the design of Macs. No issue was too small for him to consider. All I'm suggesting is that the same kind of quality focus can be applied to the customer experience.
You mean like antenna gate, or when iTools was rolled out and that emails were lost or when I bought a G4 powerbook and it had whites spots because of manufacturing defects (and apple had to address that). If your going to throw the image of Steve into the equation be sure to know the full history. Apple was not a perfect company when he was at the helm.

Remember the customer? You know, that person who actually funds Apple. Ya, them. It matters whether they're having a good time or not. All of them. Every last one. That's the Steve Jobs excellence attention to detail mindset.
Correct, and the customer needs to vote with the wallet. I'm doing my part by buying a product that works well

You guys aren't supporting Apple, you're rationalizing and enabling a deterioration of the Steve Jobs mindset that made you decide to buy a Mac instead of a PC. If it's sloppy mediocrity that you want, Microsoft is still in business and happy to take your money.
There's no rationalizing going on. OSX has been rock solid for me and by all appearances to most people.

I think you're under the impression that your opinion is fact and that we're bending over backwards in logical gymnastics to counter that. On the contrary you have stated your opinion, its not fact and you're unable to back up your opinion with statistics to make it a fact. That's not rationalizing, that's expressing my opinion which is counter to yours.
 
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Totally agree with OP.
Also, on every iOS launch Apple should encourage everyone to buy a new iPhone and try the new iOS version there before installing to main phone. Since there is no way you can downgrade iOS version, this should be Apple's first priority.
 
Totally agree with OP.
Also, on every iOS launch Apple should encourage everyone to buy a new iPhone and try the new iOS version there before installing to main phone. Since there is no way you can downgrade iOS version, this should be Apple's first priority.

Not sure if serious... if so, that's even more messed up that the OPs posts.
 
Actually, it's probably the most relevant point, because if you can't prove these alleged issues are affecting a significant portion of the userbase, you can't prove there is a need for your proposal.

As I've already explained, there are enough users on just this forum alone reporting OSX install calamities to justify the creation of a truthful educational web page, which is what I've been proposing.

Here's the deal guys. It's entirely appropriate to challenge any proposal. And I totally get that that's the game on any forum, and I play it myself.

But the goal of the challenge should be to better serve Mac users.

None of you have put a proposal on the table that would serve the affected users better than the status quo, or my proposal. Thus, I reasonably conclude that like Apple, you are not interested in those Mac users having a better experience.

And so, because I can find no one interested in the topic of this thread, which is finding better ways to serve those having OSX install calamities, I cede total victory to all of you, given that this appears to be all that you're really interested in.

You win, I lose, game over, unsubscribed.
 
As I've already explained, there are enough users on just this forum alone reporting OSX install calamities to justify the creation of a truthful educational web page, which is what I've been proposing.

Here's the deal guys. It's entirely appropriate to challenge any proposal. And I totally get that that's the game on any forum, and I play it myself.

But the goal of the challenge should be to better serve Mac users.

None of you have put a proposal on the table that would serve the affected users better than the status quo, or my proposal. Thus, I reasonably conclude that like Apple, you are not interested in those Mac users having a better experience.

And so, because I can find no one interested in the topic of this thread, which is finding better ways to serve those having OSX install calamities, I cede total victory to all of you, given that this appears to be all that you're really interested in.

You win, I lose, game over, unsubscribed.

You ignored my alternative that I presented IN MY FIRST POST, so you have absolutely no ground to stand on with this grandstanding. Since your proposal will do nothing to fix issues caused any time an OS is updated (whether OS X, Windows, Linux, etc) as it pertains to third party applications/devices/etc, having users who lack any sort of a technical background run test environments just frustrates them and does nothing to solve the problem you allege yet still cannot prove to be significant. The only way to properly address those alleged issues is to give users information on what issues are occurring and how to resolve them, something which is already present in the status quo through sites such as this one, Macworld, Mac Life, etc.

I stated earlier that you cannot use the posts on these forums or the forum membership as representative of the user base as a whole, because nobody posts on here to brag about how perfect their system is. That's like polling a bunch of Bama fans about their opinion of Auburn (their hated in-state rival) - the results are skewed simply by whom you chose as your focus group. I also stated that Apple still leads the customer satisfaction ratings, which directly contradicts your claim that these issues are causing bad publicity for Apple. You chose to completely ignore that as well.

But the part that really ticked me off is where you falsely claim that the people taking issue with your proposal "like Apple, you are not interested in those Mac users having a better experience." That's the biggest strawman argument of all, and your proposal was full of them from the start. You claim that a significant issue exists, but cannot provide evidence to support that claim, let alone that any impact could be considered significant. There's no need to present a counterproposal when you can't even prove the harms you allege.

Every time someone has directly challenged your thesis and methodology, you've resorted to falsely claiming that either a) their arguments aren't valid or b) nobody's really interested in discussing the issue - which is a bold-faced lie given how many posts there are in this thread. Furthermore, at the point where you admit to not buying a Mac in the last 12 years, you demonstrate that you have no actual experience upon which to base your claims, and your lack of knowledge of issues that affected Apple devices DURING Jobs' second tenure at Apple proves that you honestly have no evidential, factual, or logical basis for your proposal other than to bash Apple and anyone who disagrees with you.

The reason you lose this discussion isn't because people don't care, it's because you a) fail to prove that the issue is significant enough to warrant such action, b) refuse to directly defend yourself, instead choosing to arbitrarily call arguments irrelevant or ignore them completely, and cannot provide even one solid piece of evidence to support your claims. I've seen high school freshmen in their first-ever debate tournaments who were better capable of defending their case thesis then you have been.
 
Two cautionary tales about upgrading an OS

Two cautionary tales.

1. I, like many others, seem to have suffered from corruption of my external backup disks after upgrading some Macs to OS X10.9.

2. With an upgrade to IOS, I (again like many others) lost a large quantity of data (PDFs) that were downloaded to an iPad from the web and stored in iBooks.

If using your backup drives with the new OS can corrupt them, one has to think very carefully about how to test for this possibility and still retain the ability to revert if a problem emerges.

In the second case, Apple provides no feasible mechanism for backing up data that has been downloaded in Safari and, following the suggestions in the interface, saved in iBooks. Unfortunately, iBooks does not handle data in the way that all other apps that manage PDFs do. See e.g. here:

http://tidbits.com/article/12879.

Even if you are conservative about upgrades, something like the GO TO FAIL bug can force them on us.

As these examples suggest, in the current Apple environment, ensuring that an upgrade will not lead to loss of user data is a task that requires far more technical sophistication than most users have.
 
While I think the OP comes from the right place, I think perceptions about general difficulties with upgrading mavericks become skewed simply because people that have no issue upgrading (like myself) will never post a word about how quick and easy the process was.
 
This isn't a SOLUTION to all Mavericks problems, it only helps detect them. You actually think an average user is going to go through all the hassle to test the OS on their system. I think that really should be Apple's job.
 
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