A/V Streaming to Replace AirTunes in Next Airport Express (RELIABLE SOURCE)

[ipedro]

I have confirmed through yet another source the veracity of this report.

This third source confirmed that AirPort Express 2 has an S-Video out, a USB port and an optical audio out port. He could not confirm how it would be used.

At the very least, we'll see a TV or another display being used with the Airport Express as either an iPhoto presentation streamer or even an iTunes information controller (you can see which song is playing and album art on your tv).

If my first two souces are correct though, we'll be seeing H.264 video streaming which is the logical next step in the Airport Express.

Stay tuned as I try to get more info.


Note: To add some credibility to this story, I can mention how this souce knows about the S-Video port, but to portect the souces identity, I have to limit what I can tell you.
He works in a position that requires him to know how the circuit board of Apple Hardware will be configured. He knows there will be an S-Video port, but doesn't know how it will function. He knows for a fact that this circuit board is in production as we speak. This lends plausibility to the WWDC release date.

 

[ipedro]

I just thought of yet another awesome feature that might branch out!

True wireless capability. Hook up your LCD display to the AE2 and use it as a second wireless screen for your Powerbook or iBook.

 

[StarbucksSam]

Note: To add some credibility to this story

Thank God SOMEBODY did that. THANK YOU. I commend you. Go YOU.

 

[superbovine]

Note: To add some credibility to this story, I can mention how this souce knows about the S-Video port, but to portect the souces identity, I have to limit what I can tell you.
He works in a position that requires him to know how the circuit board of Apple Hardware will be configured. He knows there will be an S-Video port, but doesn't know how it will function. He knows for a fact that this circuit board is in production as we speak. This lends plausibility to the WWDC release date.

Your'll prove your credibility when your story pans out to be true. Either way you aren't a journalist, and probably won't be protected under the 1st amendment or your sources.

btw: http://www.dansays.com/archives/2004/06/19/airport-express-2/

 

[t300]

Your'll prove your credibility when your story pans out to be true. Either way you aren't a journalist, and probably won't be protected under the 1st amendment or your sources.

btw: http://www.dansays.com/archives/2004/06/19/airport-express-2/

Harsh. Especially considering he is just lending to the thing that our whole community is based on...rumors.

 

[wwooden]

I am having a tough time figuring out what type of video you would be streaming to this unit. I mean, if I want to watch a DVD, I think it would be a lot easier to just put the DVD in my DVD player connected to the TV, then put it in the computer and stream it there. The only quick time videos I have on my computer are the stuff i ripped from my DVD's to play on my PSP (family guy, futurerama, Seinfeld).

I agree with one of the posters that they might take an idea from the iPod Photo, being able to stream photo slide shows with music to the TV. This would only require another connector for the express unit and wouldn't require a great deal of bandwidth.

What kind of video stuff do you have in mind for streaming to the unit?

 

[ipedro]

I find it funny how people bite the hand that feeds them information, only to praise that person the minute their information proves to be true.

The first source wasn't somebody I could say without a shadow of a doubt that he was speaking the truth. The second, she is definitely VERY reliable since she told me well in advance what new features would appear on Adobe CS2 .. and this third source has given me info regarding previous Apple products in the past which turned out to be true. 2 out of 3 reliable sources saying the same thing is all I need to believe the news.

But thats me... everybody else can be left sucking their thumbs until THEY find their OWN sources so they believe without a shadow of a doubt that AE2 will have an S-Video port.

 

[weldon]

I'd like to see the iTunes Visualizer work through AirTunes so you could see the song playing and watch the visualizations on the TV. Of course, my main stereo is connected to the Projection TV/Home Theater. It would work great for me. Combine this with a remote that can pull up the party shuffle list while the visualizer is going and you have a winning combo.

I think a photo slide show (set to music, of course) would be another great idea. I might actually look at some of my photos that way, instead of just letting them sit on the computer. The remote would be useful here too - pick the photo album, pick the song or playlist, etc.

Streaming a DVD over wireless is a dumb idea. I'd much rather get the best PQ from the component video connectors on my DVD player. Recompressed DVD via S-Video is of no use to me.

 

[ipedro]

All good points. The news states that there's an S-Video connector while the second source claims it will be for streaming video. DVD quality video, I admit will be hard to pull off.. but streaming QuickTime video encoded in H.264 is perfectly plausible if you think ahead. Apple seems to want to get into the video store market. Playing any QuickTime movie wirelessly on your TV seems like a desirable function.

 

[Koodauw]

Well Im usually pretty gung-ho about new apple products, but I just have no interest in streaming video at the moment. Although I do love to stream audio. I hope this doesn't turn out to be some lame picture viewer streaming crap. We have iPod Photos for that.

 

[Flying Llama]

Hmm maybe someone should put this on page 2, since the source doesn't even have a reputation, no offense to ipedro , and since the evidence is pretty clear...

 

[AliensAreFuzzy]

Did anyone stop to think about the processing power you would need to encode h.264 at real time? I hope this happens, but I don't think it will.

 

[ipedro]

Did anyone stop to think about the processing power you would need to encode h.264 at real time? I hope this happens, but I don't think it will.

Then perhaps Apple's intention isn't to encode DVDs in real time but to play content already in H.264 and stream that information to AE2 and to your TV.

Jobs always said he wasn't interested in a Media Center box. He wants to see a Macintosh as the center of your home media. Having your Mac stream HD video to watch on your TV follows his philosophy.

 

[Flying Llama]

...Having your Mac stream HD video to watch on your TV follows his [Steve Jobs'] philosophy.

Ya but it is possible things get passed his philosophy:
-iPod shuffle: Jobs said people just stuff them somewhere, but they came!
-iPod photo

And maybe some others... anything is possible...

 

[superbovine]

Harsh. Especially considering he is just lending to the thing that our whole community is based on...rumors.

What does that have to do with the truth?

 

[GregA]

Then perhaps Apple's intention isn't to encode DVDs in real time but to play content already in H.264 and stream that information to AE2 and to your TV.

The encoding is certainly part of the problem. Decoding is another part of that problem though. I know h264 scales for mobile phones, so there are certainly ways - but we want to maintain the quality right?

[edit: I do think it's possible to find that sweet spot - just not sure how much it would cost today.]

Very good point! I wouldn't be surprised to see this as a selling feature: "Wirelessly view your iPhoto gallery on your TV"

This should certainly be possible, they've already got video output chips in iPod-Photos.

iChat A/V on your TV? Plug your iSight into the Airport Express and sit back on your couch as you video chat with peole on the other side of the planet. INSTANT video phone!

There was a related rumor recently - that iSight was being updated to have some h264 encoding onboard the camera. I thought it was a stupid idea as the computer should do the compression, but maybe there's more to it. Then again, maybe this just helps iChat AV use less processing power (good for all the G4s out there!)

Jobs always said he wasn't interested in a Media Center box. He wants to see a Macintosh as the center of your home media. Having your Mac stream HD video to watch on your TV follows his philosophy.

Where'd you hear this? Jobs said he didn't want to use a Mac to watch TV, that people would be annoyed if they couldn't use their Mac because they were recording something etc. He didn't negate the possibility of different TV-specific devices that worked with Macs (just as iPods work with Macs but don't require a Mac). This seems to be the oppositve of what you're saying?

edit: Thanks for the rumour iPedro, very interesting

 

[eva01]

if you wanted to stream HD to your TV, you would have to have a HD television or it wouldn't work, correct?

how much do HD TVs go for these days anyways? 400-500

 

[weldon]

The encoding is certainly part of the problem. Decoding is another part of that problem though. I know h264 scales for mobile phones, so there are certainly ways - but we want to maintain the quality right?
[edit: I do think it's possible to find that sweet spot - just not sure how much it would cost today.]

We won't really know for a little while. The H.264 AVC HP spec is still pretty new and the silicon isn't quite ready yet. Manufacturers are working to have chips ready to go in the summer or late fall that can do decoding in hardware, but there could still be bumps in the road. Look for the cost to fall dramatically over the next couple years as the next-gen disc format ramps up.

There was a related rumor recently - that iSight was being updated to have some h264 encoding onboard the camera. I thought it was a stupid idea as the computer should do the compression, but maybe there's more to it. Then again, maybe this just helps iChat AV use less processing power (good for all the G4s out there!)

This is actually a good idea because encoding can be done very efficiently in hardware. I would only question the rumor because the chips aren't really ready yet for a device at the price point of an iSight. Maybe next year.

 

[GregA]

Manufacturers are working to have chips ready to go in the summer or late fall that can do decoding in hardware<snip>

The other issue is that there is a big difference between mobile phone decoding chips and HDTV receiver decoding chips - Apple may want SDTV quality (who knows). Also, I imagine that highly compressed h264 is more difficult to encode, and more difficult to decode - an Apple decoder at the TV could be custom designed to handle a certain level of compression and resolution supplied by an Apple machine. Potentially.

(iSight encoding) is actually a good idea because encoding can be done very efficiently in hardware.

Yeah, I meant to say that while I thought it was stupid originally (why increase the cost of the iSight?), taking some pressure off my computer is a good thing.

(edit: error in quote)

 

[GFLPraxis]

Can't SD resolution video be encoded at H.264? H.264 doesn't necessarily HAVE to be HD, does it?

 

[GregA]

Can't SD resolution video be encoded at H.264? H.264 doesn't necessarily HAVE to be HD, does it?

Yes (yes - SD resolution video can be encoded using H.264).

If you get a chance to play back some h264 videos from Apple's site, you'll notice that the lower resolution ones play nicely on machines a few years old (mine is a G4-800Mhz). The HD ones won't run on mine.

So if Apple is making a streaming device, the decoder required in that device will depend on the resolution of the video, but also probably (my previous question) on the way it is compressed.

Greg
ps. Note if you have a HD movie via an S-Video out (as rumoured) you won't get HD quality anyway. You want DVI-D or Component (preferably RGBVH) output

 

[weldon]

The other issue is that there is a big difference between mobile phone decoding chips and HDTV receiver decoding chips - Apple may want SDTV quality (who knows). Also, I imagine that highly compressed h264 is more difficult to encode, and more difficult to decode - an Apple decoder at the TV could be custom designed to handle a certain level of compression and resolution supplied by an Apple machine. Potentially.

There's not as much difference as you might think. There is a big difference in the encoding of AVC HP because of some different techniques used to get the absolute best PQ out of HD video, but the decoding of H.264 is essentially the same, no matter the resolution or bitrate. It's just a question of how much you have to do at once. Kinda like how MP3 works where you can have big differences in the encoding, but almost any device can decode anything in MP3 from 16kbps mono to 320kbps stereo because it's done in hardware or on fast computers that can cut through MP3 like a hot knife through butter.

And you've kinda got highly compressed mixed up with high bitrate. If it's highly compressed, it's a lower bitrate and it's EASIER to decode. If it's less compressed and at a higher bitrate it's MORE intensive to decode. You have to consider that with resolution as well, so high resolution at high bitrate is really intensive and low resolution at low bitrate is relatively simple.

Still, I doubt we're going to see any hardware solutions for movies until the Blu-ray / HD-DVD camps work out their compromise. Apple might still do a proprietary implementation for specific applications (iTunes, iPhoto), of course.

 

[GregA]

the decoding of H.264 is essentially the same, no matter the resolution or bitrate. It's just a question of how much you have to do at once.

So higher quality will require more decoding-per-second, so to speak. Right?

Kinda like how MP3 works where you can have big differences in the encoding, but almost any device can decode anything in MP3 from 16kbps mono to 320kbps stereo because it's done in hardware or on fast computers that can cut through MP3 like a hot knife through butter.

The cheap mp3 players weren't able to decode stuff faster than 128kbps at first - they simply weren't fast enough. These days any mp3 player is fast enough to do the job at whatever bitrate. When our playback devices are fast enough to handle ANY h264 signal I'd agree - but I don't think you can make that analogy at this point. Or am I missing something?

And you've kinda got highly compressed mixed up with high bitrate. If it's highly compressed, it's a lower bitrate and it's EASIER to decode.

I can speak only from what makes sense to me, but it IS a slight stretch from where I'm making my assumptions. I'm assuming that the MPEG4-10/h264 standard has multiple techniques for maximising the compression of a given movie.

So, if I create a movie clip using 10 compression algorithms (for instance), I might have a nice small file. If I create the same movie clip using 5 compression algorithms, the file will not be as small (Please tell me if this logic holds for h264!?). On decoding there is more data, but "less to do", for the larger file. This is a separate issue to the resolution of the file.

You are saying explicitly that this isn't so. Let me make it clear that I'm just guessing based on number of passes required to decode the compressed file - would you mind telling me where you're basing your statement from?

I dare say that an 8Mbps SDTV clip will be easier to decode than an 8Mbps HDTV clip - even though they have the same bit rate. The question is whether an 8Mbps SDTV clip is easier to decode than a 7Mbps SDTV clip.

Of course if you're saying every chip will easily decode every h264 signal then it wouldn't matter. I just don't share your optimism.

Still, I doubt we're going to see any hardware solutions for movies until the Blu-ray / HD-DVD camps work out their compromise. Apple might still do a proprietary implementation for specific applications (iTunes, iPhoto), of course.

Well, the h264 chip is standard in both Blu-ray and HD-DVD, along with HD boxes in the new french PayTV system, and News Corp's BSkyB HD soon - the h264 format is finalised. Of course, we need chip production to ramp up before the costs go down, and the next-gen DVD compromise will certainly help that!

Greg

 

[weldon]

So higher quality will require more decoding-per-second, so to speak. Right?

Yep.

The cheap mp3 players weren't able to decode stuff faster than 128kbps at first - they simply weren't fast enough. These days any mp3 player is fast enough to do the job at whatever bitrate. When our playback devices are fast enough to handle ANY h264 signal I'd agree - but I don't think you can make that analogy at this point. Or am I missing something?

You're right. We're not there yet with H.264. I was just thinking about how you can do multi-pass encoding with MP3 and take all the time you like to create the file, but when you're done it's still MP3 and the decoding is essentially the same and can be done in real-time by anything out there today. With H.264, you can use all kinds of fancy tricks in AVC HP to create optimized video, but when you're done it's still just H.264.

I can speak only from what makes sense to me, but it IS a slight stretch from where I'm making my assumptions. I'm assuming that the MPEG4-10/h264 standard has multiple techniques for maximising the compression of a given movie.

This is true. There are different techniques that can be used in encoding.

So, if I create a movie clip using 10 compression algorithms (for instance), I might have a nice small file. If I create the same movie clip using 5 compression algorithms, the file will not be as small (Please tell me if this logic holds for h264!?). On decoding there is more data, but "less to do", for the larger file. This is a separate issue to the resolution of the file.

This is a little off. When you are finished encoding, you have a H.264 video stream. There aren't multiple layers of compression that need to be pulled apart to reconstruct the video. You still have I, B, and P frames. However, you do have some complexity choices in the number of frames that an i-frame can reference, the size of luma compensation blocks, motion adaption, CABAC, etc. All those choices are going to influence decoding complexity. Still, I guess that the biggest influence is always going to be resolution and bitrate. The more data to handle at once, the more complex the decoding task.

You are saying explicitly that this isn't so. Let me make it clear that I'm just guessing based on number of passes required to decode the compressed file - would you mind telling me where you're basing your statement from?

I'm not outright disagreeing with you. There are complexity choices made in encoding that influence the complexity of decoding. I'm just saying that to the decoder, H.264 is still H.264. I've seen general numbers that say encoding with AVC main is 8x more complex than MPEG-2, but decoding is only 3-4x as complex. CABAC is maybe an order of magnitude more complex for encoding, but only a little more complex for decoding. You asked for sources - I didn't take the time at this hour to list any. Sorry.

I dare say that an 8Mbps SDTV clip will be easier to decode than an 8Mbps HDTV clip - even though they have the same bit rate. The question is whether an 8Mbps SDTV clip is easier to decode than a 7Mbps SDTV clip.

Good question. While there are encoding options that increase decoding complexity at any bitrate, I still think the main influence on performance is going to be bitrate. I would expect an 8Mbps stream to be more intensive to decode than a 7Mbps stream because it demands more resources from the hardware.

Of course if you're saying every chip will easily decode every h264 signal then it wouldn't matter. I just don't share your optimism.

I'm saying that this summer we will have finalized silicon that can decode H.264 AVC HP up to 1080p/30 at bitrates up to 35Mbps in real-time. How do I know that? Because that's what the Blu-ray and HD-DVD specs call for.

Well, the h264 chip is standard in both Blu-ray and HD-DVD, along with HD boxes in the new french PayTV system, and News Corp's BSkyB HD soon - the h264 format is finalised. Of course, we need chip production to ramp up before the costs go down, and the next-gen DVD compromise will certainly help that!

Except the chips for Blu-ray and HD-DVD aren't final yet. And H.264 is just recently locked down. Main profile has been done for a while but High Profile has been in flux to try and match up better with VC-1. The CABAC stuff is just in the last few months really, from what I understand.

 

[ipedro]

... as the front page news states, iTunes is now selling VIDEOS. Yet another fact that lends credibility to this rumour and the sources who I've stated.

The next AirPort Express, to be launched at WWDC will most certainly stream video from iTunes using a yet unamed feature that will replace AirTunes.