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Menneisyys2

macrumors 603
Jun 7, 2011
5,997
1,101
There's no loss to Apple for holding off support in mobile until it settles. See NFC and how well played that has been for Apple.

Apple doesn't need to lead the feature race, but when they enter, every current device will have it, and it will probably be the most elegant solution.

Yes, I know the tech-illiterate doesn't really need cutting-edge tech like 4K or true NFC. (Not the Apple-type NFC, which can only be used for ApplePay and nothing else.) We geeks/ tech literates, though, do want some more recent tech in out phones - something that made, years ago, us switch to Apple from the then-current mobile OS'es.

Given that both 4K and NFC are mature (particularly the latter), well-established and tried among mobile manufacturers, it's a pity Apple still haven't embraced any of these technologies. Heck, true (not Apple's useless-for-non-ApplePay one) NFC has been in use for 3+ years in mainstream smartphones. Still, no NFC in Apple's handsets.

4K video recording and full NFC support was the main reason for my going for a Note 4 this year as my private handset, and not the 6+.
 

TMay

macrumors 68000
Dec 24, 2001
1,520
1
Carson City, NV
Yes, I know the tech-illiterate doesn't really need cutting-edge tech like 4K or true NFC. (Not the Apple-type NFC, which can only be used for ApplePay and nothing else.) We geeks/ tech literates, though, do want some more recent tech in out phones - something that made, years ago, us switch to Apple from the then-current mobile OS'es.

Given that both 4K and NFC are mature (particularly the latter), well-established and tried among mobile manufacturers, it's a pity Apple still haven't embraced any of these technologies. Heck, true (not Apple's useless-for-non-ApplePay one) NFC has been in use for 3+ years in mainstream smartphones. Still, no NFC in Apple's handsets.

4K video recording and full NFC support was the main reason for my going for a Note 4 this year as my private handset, and not the 6+.

I hope that you and your brethren are able to keep all of those bleeding edge OEM's alive...
 

Menneisyys2

macrumors 603
Jun 7, 2011
5,997
1,101
I hope that you and your brethren are able to keep all of those bleeding edge OEM's alive...

Innovation and competition is also advantageous for the tech illiterate using Apple - to avoid Apple's resting on their laurels. (Not that I'd really hope for some exiting new tech in the 6S... Apple is increasingly getting behind the competition and, consequently, no wonder the tech literate are leaving them.)
 

TMay

macrumors 68000
Dec 24, 2001
1,520
1
Carson City, NV
Innovation and competition is also advantageous for the tech illiterate using Apple - to avoid Apple's resting on their laurels. (Not that I'd really hope for some exiting new tech in the 6S... Apple is increasingly getting behind the competition and, consequently, no wonder the tech literate are leaving them.)

What a sizable crowd you must be...

Perhaps if you were to step back and analyze Apple's success, you might realize what innovation truly is. A good starting point might be Horace Dediu's Asymco.com.
 

Menneisyys2

macrumors 603
Jun 7, 2011
5,997
1,101
What a sizable crowd you must be...

Perhaps if you were to step back and analyze Apple's success, you might realize what innovation truly is. A good starting point might be Horace Dediu's Asymco.com.

Look, I don't dispute Apple was innovative between 2007-2010. This is why I made the switch to Apple (from Windows Mobile / Symbian / BB on the phone and Tablet PC on the tablet platform) back then.

Too bad they're no longer innovative. Financial success has nothing to do with (recent) innovations. Again, the tech illiterate will purchase even non-innovative stuff if it's popular / advertised enough and the manufacturer of which was, some time in the past, indeed innovative.
 
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TMay

macrumors 68000
Dec 24, 2001
1,520
1
Carson City, NV
Look, I don't dispute Apple was innovative between 2007-2010. This is what I made the switch to Apple (from Windows Mobile / Symbian / BB on the phone and Tablet PC on the tablet platform).

Too bad they're no longer innovative. Financial success has nothing to do with (recent) innovations. Again, the tech illiterate will purchase even non-innovative stuff if it's popular / advertised enough and the manufacturer of which was, some time in the past, indeed innovative.

I disagree with you, obviously, but it doesn't change the facts; the OEM's are getting killed in the market. What innovation will they be able to do that will save them? 8K, 3D printing?

You see the market as driven by features, but in fact, that is how the OEM's must compete due Google's control of Android. With Samsung the leader of the OEM's and getting eaten from the bottom and marginalized at the top, it isn't difficult to see that the business model of catering to the "tech literate" is a fail.

Apple will probably end up with 70m iPhone sales this quarter, and record profits that will be recycled into massive supply chain investments and increased R&D. At what point will they have a camera fully developed in house, and what disruptive technology will they bring to the market?

For the record, the A8, Swift and Metal are all innovation; not everything revolves around 4k with small imagers.
 

Menneisyys2

macrumors 603
Jun 7, 2011
5,997
1,101
Apple will probably end up with 70m iPhone sales this quarter, and record profits that will be recycled into massive supply chain investments and increased R&D. At what point will they have a camera fully developed in house, and what disruptive technology will they bring to the market?

Hope so. I've made a lot of comparisons of the iPhone6 and the Note4 and found at least some features of the iPhone better-implemented: sweep pano (better-quality stitching, less smearing) and HDR (true double-frame stitching instead of just applying negative exp. comp. during shooting and pulling the shadows afterwards). With a much larger and more up-to-date sensor, the iPhone could produce images that are in every respect better than those of the Note4. Apple does have the tech and know-how but is being hold back, in this particular case, the somewhat outdated (and still, compared to the N4, small: 1/3") sensor.

If they do come up with a significantly better camera next year (incl. 4K, of course), I may switch back to the 6S.

For the record, the A8, Swift and Metal are all innovation; not everything revolves around 4k with small imagers

1, for 4K video, if and only if the sensor is oversampled (as opposed to line skipping or just using the innermost 8Mpixels of the sensor, as for example Panasonic's cameras do), an 1/2.6" sensor may turn out to be sufficient. Let;s not forget that all non-pro camcorders use very small (generally, smaller than 1/3.5") sensors. It's only if you need high ISO / cinematic look (shallow FoV) when small-sensor 4K cameras become absolutely inadequate.

2, I don't question A8, Swift and Metal being innovative. It's just that I want NFC, 4K and the rest now because I find them highly useful. This is why I didn't get the iPhone this year but got the Note 4.
 

TMay

macrumors 68000
Dec 24, 2001
1,520
1
Carson City, NV
Hope so. I've made a lot of comparisons of the iPhone6 and the Note4 and found at least some features of the iPhone better-implemented: sweep pano (better-quality stitching, less smearing) and HDR (true double-frame stitching instead of just applying negative exp. comp. during shooting and pulling the shadows afterwards). With a much larger and more up-to-date sensor, the iPhone could produce images that are in every respect better than those of the Note4. Apple does have the tech and know-how but is being hold back, in this particular case, the somewhat outdated (and still, compared to the N4, small: 1/3") sensor.



1, for 4K video, if and only if the sensor is oversampled (as opposed to line skipping pr just using the innermost 8Mpixels of the sensor, as for example Panasonic's cameras do), an 1/2.6" sensor may turn out to be sufficient. Let;s not forget that all non-pro camcorders use very small (generally, smaller than 1/3.5") sensors.

2, I don't question A8, Swift and Metal being innovative. It's just that I want NFC, 4K and the rest now because I find them highly useful. This is why I didn't get the iPhone this year but got the Note 4.

Well you now have NFC, though Apple won't (yet anyway) compromise security to open NFC to developers. As for 4K, most iPhone buyers are happy with 1080P in its current configuration on the iPhone 6, and I don't suspect that for many, there is a must have for 4K.

I suspect, but couldn't prove, that Apple has determined that 6mm (more or less) is the new thickness standard for the iPhone. Apple has been able to maintain battery life, increase performance, increase resolution, and even add an OIS camera system within this configuration. The fact that they sill sell some 200 million iPhones in FY 2015 certainly gains them leverage against the competition, and leverage with their partners to continue to develop camera modules specific to Apple's needs; i.e., thin and modest resolution for better low light capability.
 

Menneisyys2

macrumors 603
Jun 7, 2011
5,997
1,101
Well you now have NFC, though Apple won't (yet anyway) compromise security to open NFC to developers.

Physically, NFC is indeed there. Too bad one is not allowed to use it and this surely won't change in the next 10-11 months. That is, it's currently just dead weight.

For me, NFC is great and a real timesaver for quick file / contact / whatever transfers / connection establishing.
 

thekeyring

macrumors 68040
Jan 5, 2012
3,485
2,147
London
I can deduce that easily, because Apple doesn't function randomly as some here do. They need to trumpet a new iOS release with EACH AND EVERY iPhone ever released for maximal marketing. Unless you know a way to have iOS 9 beta tested and ready to go for June, despite the fact that the 8.2 WatchKit update will take up most of Apple's time for the next three months, it isn't happening. The future can in most cases be predicted with a rare attribute called wisdom.

Okay, but you cannot guarantee there will be a new Apple TV. Or that, if there is, it will use A8. Even if you think it is likely, there is no need to be as arrogant as you were in your first comment.
 

HobeSoundDarryl

macrumors G5
The only question I have is how long is it going to take for the 4K standard to be adopted by broadcasters and ISPs? How long is it going to take for the infrastructure to be able to support such a demanding standard? How long are we going to endure watching 1080p content upscaled on 4K displays? 2..3..4 years?

I wouldn't be nearly so optimistic about the broadcast timeline. For "HD", the beginnings of that transition was way back in the mid 1980s but it didn't feel like it was reasonably mainstream until about 2006. If that can be a guide, I'd estimate 20 years from when the broadcasters start talking about wanting to do it (if they do).

The HD transition was very expensive and local broadcasters had to be legally pushed to make the switch with government mandates, etc. I'm not aware of any of that even begun by this point. I don't even know if there is any serious talk about wanting to go there (by broadcasters or the government).

ISPs are no particular obstacle. It's just data. Average bandwidth may need to grow but it needs to grow anyway. And when it gets to the right amount to support 4K, it will need to keep growing to support the emergence of 8K or other data hungry needs.

I would guess we will endure watching mostly 1080i/720p (not 1080p except in certain circumstances) for probably the next decade or two. If 4K makes it in something like what we think of as broadcasted HD now, it's probably some kind of streaming service via the Internet + optical discs instead of over-the-air. Or, it probably arrives much sooner via the Internet and/or discs than waiting out an over-the-air solution.

I realize that all probably seen as bad news but having seen how hard it was to get the various parties to switch to 1080i/720p, I don't see much momentum at all toward those parties now embracing 4K. Even if that got going now, we'd probably all be looking at 8K or 16K TV sets in stores before 4K was as readily available as 1080i/720p is now.

----------

As for 4K, most iPhone buyers are happy with 1080P in its current configuration on the iPhone 6, and I don't suspect that for many, there is a must have for 4K.

"We" posted the same "most people" thing about 720p before Apple embraced 1080p. "We" bashed NFC to no end until Apple rumors piled up that Apple was going NFC. "We" bashed bigger-screen iPhones when 3.5" was the "perfect" size, then adjusted "our" view of perfection to 4" when Apple went to 4", then adjusted our view of perfection again to 4.7" or 5.5" when Apple went there. The key idea is that after Apple evolves to the next thing, those "most people" that are often referenced don't come down hard on Apple for exceeding what made them happy. Instead, "most people" gush at getting the new standard and Apple is never called out for overstepping the old.

1080p wasn't "must have" when Apple embraced only 720p. And before that, 720p wasn't "must have" when Apple was focused on only SD. NFC wasn't "must have" before Apple embraced it. 4" and then 4.7" & 5.5" were not "must have". See the pattern? Nothing tends to be "must have". The cutting-edge is generally about wants & wishes. "We" here generally wish that Apple would roll out their cut of such wants & wishes. Until they do, "most people" are apparently happy with exactly what Apple offers at the moment but then shift right with Apple when Apple does get around to moving along.

When it comes to a topic like video quality, my thinking is that you never get a chance to come back and shoot something you are going to shoot today. So if one can grab it at 4K, that is much better than grabbing it at 1080p or 720p or SD. Even if one has no way to display that 4K today, getting your masters in high resolution is a one-time chance. Down-converting from a higher quality is always preferable to up-converting from a lower quality. Eventually the rest of our hardware will catch up and it will likely be wonderful that we were able to shoot some precious moment(s) at the best quality we could get it.

Doubt it? Try digging up some old VHS home movies and watch them on your 1080p TV. Hop forward 10 or 20 years and 8K or 16K might be the standard and 1080p content might look like VHS relative to the norm then. Family gatherings, baby events, birthdays, holidays, etc: you don't get to come back later when you have 4K everything and re-shoot them.
 
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Keirasplace

macrumors 601
Aug 6, 2014
4,059
1,278
Montreal
When it comes to a topic like video quality, my thinking is that you never get a chance to come back and shoot something you are going to shoot today. So if one can grab it at 4K, that is much better than grabbing it at 1080p or 720p or SD. Even if one has no way to display that 4K today, getting your masters in high resolution is a one-time chance. Down-converting from a higher quality is always preferable to up-converting from a lower quality. Eventually the rest of our hardware will catch up and it will likely be wonderful that we were able to shoot some precious moment(s) at the best quality we could get it.

Doubt it? Try digging up some old VHS home movies and watch them on your 1080p TV. Hop forward 10 or 20 years and 8K or 16K might be the standard and 1080p content might look like VHS relative to the norm then. Family gatherings, baby events, birthdays, holidays, etc: you don't get to come back later when you have 4K everything and re-shoot them.

You should shoot at the highest resolution you can... But there is a caveat to this... If someone shoots 4K on their smartphone right now... Well, that's pure idiocy!! You should at the highest resolution you can without losing contrast, gamut, color accuracy, not introducing noise, not having some unresolved blob because of a blah lense, etc. Then, there's the whole encoding issue which rears its ugly head... If your encoding your destroying data; which again means that on a smart phone it is pure insanity right now. Only the Iphone has h265 encoding, on other phones the files are monstreous in h264 even when compressed heavily.

Broacasters need to be able to film their 4K movies with good cameras and then be able to edit it. If doing that doesn't slow them down, costs a bundle and doesn't degrade the end product they'll do it. Otherwise it will take a long time till this happens.
 

HobeSoundDarryl

macrumors G5
I would think it goes without saying that 4K that looks worse that 1080p has no win in it. Obviously, the end result must exceed the current norm. So yes, 4K that looks terrible doesn't accomplish the goal. The assumption is that should Apple or anyone else implement 4K in any kind of device, the point to buying and using it for 4K shooting is that you end up with something better than you'll get shooting 1080p.

This too was often spun in the old "720p is good enough" threads before Apple embraced 1080p, usually as, "I'd much rather have good quality 720p than terrible quality 1080p" and a thousand variants of the same. Of course. But stepping up to the next level doesn't automatically come with an expectation that it has to be poor(er) quality. I'm sure that if Apple embraces 4K, it will yield something superior to Apple's incarnation of 1080p... just as Apple embracing 1080p yielding something superior to Apple's incarnation of 720p.
 

Menneisyys2

macrumors 603
Jun 7, 2011
5,997
1,101
Only the Iphone has h265 encoding, on other phones the files are monstreous in h264 even when compressed heavily.

You're totally mistaken, I'm afraid.

1. H.265 only refers to FaceTime runtime encoding, not simple video encoding. (For example, the article HERE also emphasizes this.) No sane manufacturer would today release a customer(!) camera recording (only) into H.265. Just check out what headaches the new Samsung NX1's only-H.265 approach causes with the enthusiast 4K video recording folks (article) - and they are enthusiasts knowing about video playback / editing quite a bit, unlike Average Joes.

2. 100 Mbps H.264 encodes (for example, those of the GH4 and the LX100) aren't really "monstreous" (FYI: some pro encoders produce way bigger files). Still, they deliver excellent quality.

You should shoot at the highest resolution you can... But there is a caveat to this... If someone shoots 4K on their smartphone right now... Well, that's pure idiocy!! You should at the highest resolution you can without losing contrast, gamut, color accuracy, not introducing noise, not having some unresolved blob because of a blah lense, etc. Then, there's the whole encoding issue which rears its ugly head.

1. You should make some serious shots with currently available 4K-capable cameras and phones before posting about them (and trashing their 4K capabilities). For example, the Note4 shoots far better 4K footage than one would expect of "simple" 48 Mbps (half of that of Pana). The only "problem" with the Note4 during 4K shooting is the lack of dual camera / HDR / still capture support. The quality of the footage, however, is excellent. (And if you do root the phone, you can further increase the 4K recording bitrate to 65 Mbps, further increasing quality - see THIS.)

2. "The best camera is always the one with you." And your phone always is...

3. You shouldn't call people shooting 4K with their phones "idiots" either because they may not be able to afford a separate, dedicated 4K-capable camera. The cheapest consumer digicams with (decent) 4K image quality, the Pana LX100 and FX1000, both cost $900. And they're the cheapest, non-interchangeable-lens options - the interchangeable-lens cameras (GH4, NX1 etc.) are significantly more expensive. Few people will want to purchase such an expensive camera unless they're strongly into shooting.
 

Menneisyys2

macrumors 603
Jun 7, 2011
5,997
1,101
This too was often spun in the old "720p is good enough" threads before Apple embraced 1080p, usually as, "I'd much rather have good quality 720p than terrible quality 1080p" and a thousand variants of the same. Of course. But stepping up to the next level doesn't automatically come with an expectation that it has to be poor(er) quality. I'm sure that if Apple embraces 4K, it will yield something superior to Apple's incarnation of 1080p... just as Apple embracing 1080p yielding something superior to Apple's incarnation of 720p.

It will. As has done with most of the other manufacturers having introduced 4K recording in their phones. As I've pointed out above, with the Note4, you "only" lose "gimmicks" like dual camera support, 60 fps etc. when shooting 4K. The gains, on the other hand, are enormous - and I'm stating this after carefully evaluating (I've just finished my very thorough dropped frame and OIS tests) the 4K mode of my Note4.

Nevertheless, introducing a new and, theoretically, superior recording mode in the Apple land doesn't necessarily mean it'll indeed produce what it's supposed to. Regrettably. See for example the 1080p60 image quality of the new iPhone 6/6+, which is significantly worse than the 1080p30 IQ (proof - see the section starting with "1080p will perhaps be used more often than 2160p and at that resolution both cameras offer a 60fps mode"). While other manufacturers' similar, superior shooting modes don't necessarily result in an image quality degradation (or only less of it - as is the case with the N4, as is also shown in the above article).
 

clukas

macrumors 6502a
May 3, 2010
990
401
Umm.... Apple doesn't currently have 4K content. So why should they release a 4k Apple TV?

4K content already exists. Why would apple distribute 4K content if they dont have a device capable of 4K streaming (with the exception of riMac). Apple is playing around with 4K, its a matter of time and getting it right for them. But this gives us a clear indication that they at least have a chip capable of running such content.
 

TMay

macrumors 68000
Dec 24, 2001
1,520
1
Carson City, NV
I wouldn't be nearly so optimistic about the broadcast timeline. For "HD", the beginnings of that transition was way back in the mid 1980s but it didn't feel like it was reasonably mainstream until about 2006. If that can be a guide, I'd estimate 20 years from when the broadcasters start talking about wanting to do it (if they do).

The HD transition was very expensive and local broadcasters had to be legally pushed to make the switch with government mandates, etc. I'm not aware of any of that even begun by this point. I don't even know if there is any serious talk about wanting to go there (by broadcasters or the government).

ISPs are no particular obstacle. It's just data. Average bandwidth may need to grow but it needs to grow anyway. And when it gets to the right amount to support 4K, it will need to keep growing to support the emergence of 8K or other data hungry needs.

I would guess we will endure watching mostly 1080i/720p (not 1080p except in certain circumstances) for probably the next decade or two. If 4K makes it in something like what we think of as broadcasted HD now, it's probably some kind of streaming service via the Internet + optical discs instead of over-the-air. Or, it probably arrives much sooner via the Internet and/or discs than waiting out an over-the-air solution.

I realize that all probably seen as bad news but having seen how hard it was to get the various parties to switch to 1080i/720p, I don't see much momentum at all toward those parties now embracing 4K. Even if that got going now, we'd probably all be looking at 8K or 16K TV sets in stores before 4K was as readily available as 1080i/720p is now.

----------



"We" posted the same "most people" thing about 720p before Apple embraced 1080p. "We" bashed NFC to no end until Apple rumors piled up that Apple was going NFC. "We" bashed bigger-screen iPhones when 3.5" was the "perfect" size, then adjusted "our" view of perfection to 4" when Apple went to 4", then adjusted our view of perfection again to 4.7" or 5.5" when Apple went there. The key idea is that after Apple evolves to the next thing, those "most people" that are often referenced don't come down hard on Apple for exceeding what made them happy. Instead, "most people" gush at getting the new standard and Apple is never called out for overstepping the old.

1080p wasn't "must have" when Apple embraced only 720p. And before that, 720p wasn't "must have" when Apple was focused on only SD. NFC wasn't "must have" before Apple embraced it. 4" and then 4.7" & 5.5" were not "must have". See the pattern? Nothing tends to be "must have". The cutting-edge is generally about wants & wishes. "We" here generally wish that Apple would roll out their cut of such wants & wishes. Until they do, "most people" are apparently happy with exactly what Apple offers at the moment but then shift right with Apple when Apple does get around to moving along.

When it comes to a topic like video quality, my thinking is that you never get a chance to come back and shoot something you are going to shoot today. So if one can grab it at 4K, that is much better than grabbing it at 1080p or 720p or SD. Even if one has no way to display that 4K today, getting your masters in high resolution is a one-time chance. Down-converting from a higher quality is always preferable to up-converting from a lower quality. Eventually the rest of our hardware will catch up and it will likely be wonderful that we were able to shoot some precious moment(s) at the best quality we could get it.

Doubt it? Try digging up some old VHS home movies and watch them on your 1080p TV. Hop forward 10 or 20 years and 8K or 16K might be the standard and 1080p content might look like VHS relative to the norm then. Family gatherings, baby events, birthdays, holidays, etc: you don't get to come back later when you have 4K everything and re-shoot them.

"Must have" is in the context of a purchase decision. Some here see 4k as a "must have" but obviously from sales data, 4k is not a "must have" for iPhone 6 buyers, and the sales data seems to indicate that sales of iPhone 6 are very good, very very good indeed.

Is 1080P "good enough" for "most people" to curate into home movies for viewing two and three generations into the future? Probably, and certainly better than recorded analog video signal on VHS tape.

I'm not against 4K per se, just that it is in the marketing hype phase for consumers, just as 3D was some half decade ago. The reality is that "most people" don't care at this point about 4K.
 

Menneisyys2

macrumors 603
Jun 7, 2011
5,997
1,101
Guys, I have some great news for you: the Lightning-HDMi adapter (FW version 8.0.0, HW version 1.0.0, driven by iOS8.1 devices) is able to properly decode 4K content too. I've just finished testing this on my A8X-based Air2 and A7-based rMini, with some real footage (Pana LX100 & Note4).

This means you'll be able to play back 4K videos on the big screen (in 1080p only, of course) on both A7- and A8-based devices - and, I think, also A6-based ones. (Drat, I've left my iPhone5 at home and can't test this right now...)

EDIT: fetched my iPhone5. Regrettably, pretty bad output over HDMI. That is, 4K support is A7+ only.

----------

I'm not against 4K per se, just that it is in the marketing hype phase for consumers, just as 3D was some half decade ago. The reality is that "most people" don't care at this point about 4K.

Now, 3D is indeed a gimmick on a 2D screen. (See the dedicated scientific stuff on why 3D isn't the most brain-friendly on a 2D screen.) 4K is a completely different question - it's not against biology and physics.

The two just can't be made equal WRT importance and feasibility.
 
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Lictor

macrumors 6502
Sep 13, 2008
383
21
I wouldn't be nearly so optimistic about the broadcast timeline. For "HD", the beginnings of that transition was way back in the mid 1980s but it didn't feel like it was reasonably mainstream until about 2006.

Except back then broadcast was in a dominant position. Nowadays, broadcasters are losing market shares to cable TV, to on-demand TV, to piracy... Today, 4k can happen without the broadcasters, Netflix just has to upgrade to 4k content... And, now, Netflix is producing its own content...
Besides, for HD, you needed new cameras, new software, new transmitters, new TV... For 4k, everything is there already : we have 4k monitors for computers, decoding can be done in software, 4k cameras are already available...

I'm not aware of any of that even begun by this point. I don't even know if there is any serious talk about wanting to go there (by broadcasters or the government).

It has begun. Like I said, we already had the Roland Garros tennis championship in 4k. We will have the soccer World Cup in 4k. And this will be broadcast over TNT. And yes, this means 4k encoding and broadcasting in nearly realtime...
And I guess other european countries have similar experimentations.

Doubt it? Try digging up some old VHS home movies and watch them on your 1080p TV.

No need to go that far. Even DVD is unwatchable on a big screen TV...

----------

If someone shoots 4K on their smartphone right now... Well, that's pure idiocy!! You should at the highest resolution you can without losing contrast, gamut, color accuracy, not introducing noise, not having some unresolved blob because of a blah lense, etc.

The camera on the iPhone 6 delivers pretty decent 8mp pictures in photo mode. That's exactly 4k... The color accuracy is actually one of the best on the smartphone market.
So, we know the lens and sensor are already up to the task and would produce decent quality video. Apple only need to bandwidth out of the sensor and the CPU power to handle 4k, but these have little impact on quality...

4k might seem huge concernant video standards, but it's actually low concerning photo resolutions (you can now have 40mp on a prosummer DSLR). So I don't see why you would have problems concerning the lens, color accuracy or gamut...
 

Keirasplace

macrumors 601
Aug 6, 2014
4,059
1,278
Montreal
You're totally mistaken, I'm afraid.

1. H.265 only refers to FaceTime runtime encoding, not simple video encoding. (For example, the article HERE also emphasizes this.) No sane manufacturer would today release a customer(!) camera recording (only) into H.265. Just check out what headaches the new Samsung NX1's only-H.265 approach causes with the enthusiast 4K video recording folks (article) - and they are enthusiasts knowing about video playback / editing quite a bit, unlike Average Joes.

2. 100 Mbps H.264 encodes (for example, those of the GH4 and the LX100) aren't really "monstreous" (FYI: some pro encoders produce way bigger files). Still, they deliver excellent quality.



1. You should make some serious shots with currently available 4K-capable cameras and phones before posting about them (and trashing their 4K capabilities). For example, the Note4 shoots far better 4K footage than one would expect of "simple" 48 Mbps (half of that of Pana). The only "problem" with the Note4 during 4K shooting is the lack of dual camera / HDR / still capture support. The quality of the footage, however, is excellent. (And if you do root the phone, you can further increase the 4K recording bitrate to 65 Mbps, further increasing quality - see THIS.)

2. "The best camera is always the one with you." And your phone always is...

3. You shouldn't call people shooting 4K with their phones "idiots" either because they may not be able to afford a separate, dedicated 4K-capable camera. The cheapest consumer digicams with (decent) 4K image quality, the Pana LX100 and FX1000, both cost $900. And they're the cheapest, non-interchangeable-lens options - the interchangeable-lens cameras (GH4, NX1 etc.) are significantly more expensive. Few people will want to purchase such an expensive camera unless they're strongly into shooting.

The encoder is there. The fact that right now they're only using it for Facetime is totally academic; they'll open it eventually once there are more devices being able to play h265.

BTW, the phones that ACTUALLY record in 4K don't have a h265 encoder... So, how am I wrong? Others currently crapping out their already bad quality 4K images from their poor optic cameras into humongous h264 files.

That's the point. Even if they wanted to, or there were players for h265, those devices couldn't produce the files. Like always, device makers that put 4K on smart phones didn't think this through.

The Iphone doesn't record 4K so it would need it less. Not to mention that H265 decoders are not plentiful yet, so encoding these things would leave files that people can't play correctly on their computers. Not a good thing. Within 2 years you'll see much more h265 decoders in everything.
 

Keirasplace

macrumors 601
Aug 6, 2014
4,059
1,278
Montreal
The camera on the iPhone 6 delivers pretty decent 8mp pictures in photo mode. That's exactly 4k... The color accuracy is actually one of the best on the smartphone market.
So, we know the lens and sensor are already up to the task and would produce decent quality video. Apple only need to bandwidth out of the sensor and the CPU power to handle 4k, but these have little impact on quality...

4k might seem huge concernant video standards, but it's actually low concerning photo resolutions (you can now have 40mp on a prosummer DSLR). So I don't see why you would have problems concerning the lens, color accuracy or gamut...

I've actually shot video with recent mid range DSLR cameras ($800-1000 dollar range we decent, but not top level glass) and often the quality of the video does not correlate absolutely with the quality of photo. As the video goes on, focus points, luminosity, contrast, color of light, position (subject and filmer), angular speed, and many other factors, can change and the camera can either adjust as the shot goes on, or simply discard the change as irrelevant. On a quick shoot, the camera must adjust all those things in a fraction of a second.

It is possible to shoot around the limitations of a not up to snuff smart phone camera, but you're certainly not getting top notch video even in 1080P, let alone 4K from a smart phone. But, most people don't seem to care much about quality anyway... So, hey! ;-).

So, being a good camera doesn't guarantee a good film; but having a good processor linked to the camera, coupled with a great OIS could produce decent movies. Its the processor that will eventually make smart phones decent movie makers since they'll always lose in optics and sensor size.
 

Menneisyys2

macrumors 603
Jun 7, 2011
5,997
1,101
The encoder is there. The fact that right now they're only using it for Facetime is totally academic; they'll open it eventually once there are more devices being able to play h265.

Wishful thinking. Also see: full Bluetooth (do we have full BT support now, some 7 years after the iPhone 2G? Of course not) full NFC.

BTW, the phones that ACTUALLY record in 4K don't have a h265 encoder... So, how am I wrong? Others currently crapping out their already bad quality 4K images from their poor optic cameras into humongous h264 files.

Again: check the facts before posting. Also, pay close attention to blind phone camera shootouts like that of PhoneArena. In which very often those phones equipped with, according to you, "poor optics", beat the cr@p out of the iPhone 6/6+. Like the Note 4 in the above blind(!) roundup.

That's the point. Even if they wanted to, or there were players for h265, those devices couldn't produce the files. Like always, device makers that put 4K on smart phones didn't think this through.

Again and again:

1. I've linked to an EOSHD article on the problems of H.265 encoding, the prospects of current desktops / chipsets receiving support for it. Currently, and in the next 2-3 years, playing back native H.265 streams, no matter the resolution, will be far more problematic for most users than playing back native H.264 4K streams. That is, the iPhone 6 will surely not get a H.265-enabling update in the next year or two. If at all.

2. the H.264 you're so keenly attacking is producing excellent results in the consumer-grade and -priced GH4, the LX100, the FZ1000 at 100 Mbps only. That is, H.265, while it, in its practical, current implementations (NX1) does save some 30-40% of storage at the same image quality, is not a must for 4K encoding.
 

Mr. Wonderful

macrumors 6502a
Feb 19, 2009
571
34
The only reason I see any good in this is for the Apple TV. As has been said this chip would fit nicely into a 2015 Apple TV with that can send 4k video to a 4k display.

Other than that, the resolution of the iPhone 6+ is only HD, so playing back 4k on a phone is cute, but would be wasted.

Also, the RAM is set at a gig right? Can we get more RAM in the phone first? A gig for the Apple TV is fine, but folks are really putting their phones to task now that they have adequate displays. Two Gigabytes or more first, then a 4k panel then apps that really take advantage of the screen size . . . . . . THEN 4k is welcomed.

I would rather have 2GB in the next AppleTV, just so that I don't have to upgrade for 3-4 years.

HDMI 2.0 and HDCP standards might not make that possible, however.
 

HobeSoundDarryl

macrumors G5
"Must have" is in the context of a purchase decision. Some here see 4k as a "must have" but obviously from sales data, 4k is not a "must have" for iPhone 6 buyers, and the sales data seems to indicate that sales of iPhone 6 are very good, very very good indeed.

The "sales data" argument is another commonly-used argument in support of whatever Apple has now. It was part of why "720p was good enough" before Apple embraced 1080p: "Sales of iPhones says that people don't want 1080p".

The only way "sales data" can apply to a question like this is if there was a fair choice. If there was an iPhone 6 "as is" and an iPhone 6 with 4K, and the bulk of the crowd went with one or the other, then "sales data" would tell us something. Otherwise, all sales data tells us is that people want the "whole" bundle of benefits of the iPhone bad enough to tolerate anything it might lack that they also wish it had.

I wanted a 1080p :apple:TV long before Apple rolled one out. But I owned both 720p models because the "whole" of the :apple:TV made it worthwhile to own one. My "sales data" point would have thoroughly argued that 720p was the desired choice. Sure I could have gone with Roku or others that were already 1080p just as there are some Android options with 4K now, but the "whole" bundle of benefits justified putting up with the lack of 1080p in those :apple:TVs.

Another take: just before the launch of the iPhone 6, "sales data" overwhelmingly supported that all iPhone buyers wanted the 5s, 5, 4 or earlier. Per "sales data", apparently no one wanted an iPhone 6 because no one bought one. Apple went against what "sales data" implied and launched a new model anyway.

Still another take: I think OS X is great. But "sales data" shows that Windows computers thoroughly dominates the marketplace at better than 9:1. So per "sales data", it's obvious that Windows is far superior to OS X. Nevertheless, I personally favor OS X. So even though the sales data overwhelmingly implies Windows is better than OS X (certainly >90% of the world's population that own computers can't be wrong), I buck that data myself and choose to own OS X.

All that said, it could be that iPhone buyers don't want 4K in their iPhones... perhaps 1080p is good enough (just as "720p was good enough" when iPhones were capped at 720p). But I bet if Apple rolls out a 4K iPhone, the masses will jump all over it and- much as they did when Apple quit 720p and shifted to 1080p- gush about the greatness of it while dropping all previous arguments in support of the former Apple norm.

One thing that I've noticed in all of these years hanging out around here: when Apple shifts, so shifts the arguments of it's fans. Apple is never called out as wrong for shifting per the piles and piles of logic and illogic slung to support what was Apple's previous stance. Instead, the fans just shift right with Apple. Anything not built into Apple stuff is "abomination", "99% don't want", etc until Apple builds it in and then it's "must have", "I'm already in line", "shut up and take my money".

Doubts? Step back a few months before bigger-screen iPhones were launched and see comments about bigger pants pockets, man purses, fragmentation, and "Apple would never". Step back about a year and read NFC threads: how useless it was, how insecure it was, how much "we" prefer plastic, etc. Step back a few years to :apple:TV threads when it maxed at 720p: "the chart", "streaming 1080p will crash the internet", file size issues, "until everyone everywhere has more bandwidth", etc. Step back to iPad 1 without an iSight camera and learn why having a front-facing camera on an iPad made absolutely no sense. In all of those instances, "sales data" supported such arguments. But when Apple shifted on each, "sales data" was soon supported each shift too... as it will when 4K iPhones come to market.
 
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