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Steve Jobs is probably your best shot at this. sjobs@apple.com
Someone E-mailed Steve about their brand new iMac once, and since they were far away from an Apple store, Steve had Apple call him, sent him a limo which costed $100 USD, and replaced his iMac for free. You have nothing to lose with this.


That sure sounds like Internet lore .... besides, ain't no limo that "costed" $100 ..... limo's "costed" a lot more.

But you are right, he has nothing to lose. There is an "executive customer service department" that handles customers who directly contact corporate. They all have it .... HP, Dell, Apple etc. and they usually strive to make a customer who approaches them in a mature non-threating way with kid gloves.
 
This is the key point against me, as far as I can tell, but it's as much a point of principle to me so I'm happy to expend the time and the energy. County Court proceedings are very cheap (about £80) http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/claims/index.htm so there's no issue there.

I'm going to give Apple a call after the bank holiday to offer them a final opportunity to get this sorted but I'll be sure to update this thread with the outcome either way.

point of principle?

your phone is out of warranty
 
Here's an example from personal experience ...

Here in the UK, we have two major gaming retailers, Game and GameStation. Ironically, Game have owned GameStation since last year, yet both stores have vastly different returns policies.

In Game, if you buy an Xbox 360 and it develops a fault, you take it into the store any time within that first 12 months and it's replaced with a new unit from stock.

In GameStation, if you buy an Xbox 360 and it develops a fault within the first 28 days, you can take it back to the store for a replacement. If it occurs after 28 days and you return the console to the store, they will tell you to contact Microsoft as it's now their responsibility.
 
point of principle?

your phone is out of warranty

It doesn't matter. I had a Dell PC that was 1 year out of 3 year warranty and they replaced it with a new current model.

I documented EVERY SINGLE contact I made with them for hardware issues over the 3 years I had the computer then emailed michaeldell@dell.com (which OBVIOUSLY goes to the executive response team and not Mr. Dell). The were very accommodating and I had a new box within 2 weeks.

Sometimes a clear explanation, excellent documentation of all contact and courteous interaction with the company you are having a problem with can go a long way EVEN IF technically you don't deserve any help.
 
I think it is more than reasonable for you to persue it and remember you dont technically sue apple you just take them to the small claims court which is more times than not 100% free.

I think most of the peole commenting are from the US so dont fully know what they are talking about, as there is not compareable law in the US, and there have been many programs on the TV outlining how ANY form of extended warrenty is a complete rip off when sold specifically for a item developing a physical fault eg a hdmi failure on a tv.

remember the worse that can happen is you loose at the small claims court and therefore have lost some of your time, and remember apple and every other shop and manufacturer are making one hell of a lot of money by people not excercising their lawful rights, and also providing a lot of confusion over the subject (as your dell example showed), perhaps if more people did this it would force manufactures to make better quality goods,

and remember that it is the place where your bought the phone which you do it against (eg o2) as it is their responsibility for the product and not apples (the manufacturer) which is also a very common misconception
 
I've been googling the sale of good act and came across http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8253915.stm. It seems to say that if you can prove that your problem was an issue with manufacturing and that it was a problem waiting to happen then you can get apple to fix it for free, regardless of being in or out of warranty. But if you've misused your phone in anyway and they can prove they have and that it was that misuse that lead to the problem, then it's your responsibility to pay for all repairs.
 
Why do you think it isn't going to help me? And, given that it must help some people, can you propose a scenario dissimilar to mine where it might help a consumer but where there is a key difference which means it won't help me?

Because the law only requires that the device be repairable for the specified period. It does not require the repair to be free beyond the EU warranty requirements (1 year with the option to extend to two).

If Apple refused or were unable to repair your phone for less than the cost of a new, unsubsidized, phone then you'd have grounds to pursue it. This is clearly not the case. And this is when the law would be useful.

You want a free out-of-warranty repair. You're not going to get it, especially by trying to put your own spin on a well worn law.
 
In GameStation, if you buy an Xbox 360 and it develops a fault within the first 28 days, you can take it back to the store for a replacement. If it occurs after 28 days and you return the console to the store, they will tell you to contact Microsoft as it's now their responsibility.

that is completely wrong on their part the law states that it is the sellers fault and it is only them that you deal with when a fault occurs, both within the one years warrenty and after under the sales of goods act, they are doing that because if you go and deal with tha manufacturer then they are still maintaining their proffit on the item and it is microsoft that looses out, needless to say they (gamestation) HAVE to deal with it
 
point of principle?

your phone is out of warranty

The warranty is irrelevant. The 12-month warranty is a legal obligation on the manufacturer to replace the item. After that, the onus falls on the customer to prove that the item has developed a problem before it can reasonably have been expected to do so. I believe I can do this.
 
point of principle?

your phone is out of warranty

This. Sorry dude, but you had the option for an extended warranty and you chose not to buy it. If you've got the money to go to court, you had the money to get Applecare.

You're trying to use a law made in 1979 to protect people from swindlers. You're spinning its purpose and meaning to suit your own needs. It's not principle, it's just trying to save a buck at the expense of the big bad corporation.

Also, again, to actually win in court you would have to prove that the device did not last as long as it should (which can easily be argued by Apple is 12 months) and you have to prove, somehow, that the damage was inherent in the device from the get-go, which you can't. Apple could say that such mobile devices are jarred and damaged by normal wear and tear, which is why their warranty is only 12 months long.

You will lose, you will cost yourself money, you will cost Apple money, and worst of all, you will have put a case out there that lawyers will be able to use to justify not following this law in the future, when someone tries to use it for its intended purpose.

I don't see any principle here.
 
Because the law only requires that the device be repairable for the specified period. It does not require the repair to be free beyond the EU warranty requirements (1 year with the option to extend to two).

If Apple refused or were unable to repair your phone for less than the cost of a new, unsubsidized, phone then you'd have grounds to pursue it. This is clearly not the case. And this is when the law would be useful.

You want a free out-of-warranty repair. You're not going to get it, especially by trying to put your own spin on a well worn law.

I'm not wishing to be rude bere but you evidently have no idea what you are talking about.

'Repairability' simply doesn't come into it, much in the same way as cheese doesn't - it's simply irrelevant.

Please can you explain to me where I am 'putting a spin on a well worn law'?

This. Sorry dude, but you had the option for an extended warranty and you chose not to buy it. If you've got the money to go to court, you had the money to get Applecare.

You're trying to use a law made in 1979 to protect people from swindlers. You're spinning its purpose and meaning to suit your own needs. It's not principle, it's just trying to save a buck at the expense of the big bad corporation.

Also, again, to actually win in court you would have to prove that the device did not last as long as it should (which can easily be argued by Apple is 12 months) and you have to prove, somehow, that the damage was inherent in the device from the get-go, which you can't. Apple could say that such mobile devices are jarred and damaged by normal wear and tear, which is why their warranty is only 12 months long.

You will lose, you will cost yourself money, you will cost Apple money, and worst of all, you will have put a case out there that lawyers will be able to use to justify not following this law in the future, when someone tries to use it for its intended purpose.

I don't see any principle here.

Do you have any idea how much it costs to bring County Court proceedings against an organisation in the UK? And the fact that I could've afforded Applecare is also an irrelevance. Applecare does not supercede law.

Comedy gold that you think that the law being written in 1979 is somehow of detriment to its relevance, though. When do you think the United States Bill of Rights dates from? And do you think that it doesn't have to be abided by simply because it's been knocking around for a while?

And as for the principle, it absoultely is for the principle. The phone is faulty and it shouldn't be. The law exists to protect me in this instance and if I have to use it, then I will.

I'm interested to know how you think that Apple can argue that the phone should only last for 12 months when they sell it with contracts for 24 months. Think about it logically. Consider the implications.
 
In my opinion, it's just not worth it.

In order to do anything about it, you'd have to sue, and that would cost WAY more than just replacing the phone. And you're sure as hell not going to individually cause Apple to change their warranty service from 1 year to something like 6.

Most modern electric devices start breaking after a year, especially Apple products, you kinda just have to deal with it.

Also, as someone else said recently (someone involved in the lost iPhone prototype deal), Apple is a "legal juggernaut."

If your electronic devices break after a year: somethings wrong. Mine last until I am sick of using them.
 
Agreed - anyone with any common sense would agree that the phone should last for the remainder of the contract. You should pursue it.

Check out this website which explains the Sale of Goods Act in simple terms, specifically this part:

"Having said this, items which should last several years can still break down after this six month period. If the retailer or manufacturer’s warranty has run out, the shop is often quick to say there is nothing they can do before attempting to sell you an extended warranty. This is misleading. If you buy something which should last 7 years but breaks down after a year and a day, you can still claim it was of poor quality in reference to the durability aspect. In this respect it will help to know how long items such as washing machines or printers should last. You can get this information relevant trade association"

The part in bold is something that definitely applies here - even though the warranty is only for a year, it is completely reasonable to expect the product to work properly for the entire contract. If a product is expected to break down before the contract is up, then it should not be legal to sell that product with a contract that is longer than its expected lifetime.

The one thing you need to realise about posting here is that this is an Apple fan site. You will get biased responses whenever you post anything negative about their beloved company.
 
I'm not wishing to be rude bere but you evidently have no idea what you are talking about.

'Repairability' simply doesn't come into it, much in the same way as cheese doesn't - it's simply irrelevant.

Please can you explain to me where I am 'putting a spin on a well worn law'?

No, you're the one that doesn't get it. I've been on the other side of this before, so I am speaking from personal experience.

Denying the reality of the situation won't change it.

No mileage for me to try and be helpful anymore by saving you time. You patently want people to just agree with you. Have fun wasting your time in court.
 
No, you're the one that doesn't get it. I've been on the other side of this before, so I am speaking from personal experience.

Denying the reality of the situation won't change it.

No mileage for me to try and be helpful anymore by saving you time. You patently want people to just agree with you. Have fun wasting your time in court.

So you're saying it's unreasonable to expect the phone to work properly for the entire contract?
 
Hi everyone, I'm a UK based iPhone 3G owner and I've recently been having troubles with my handset. I've visited my local Apple store on 3 occasions now in order to try to get the issue fixed, to no avail, and I'm now being fobbed off so I'm now in the unenviable position of being compelled to start using legal threats and, if required, legal action to get Apple to abide by their legal obligation.

I therefore thought I'd post my experience henceforth on here, so that the user community can see how Apple have responded, and continue to respond to my approaches.

So, here's the story:

I bought a 3G 17 months ago (25th November 2008) and had many months of satisfactory use out of it but a few months ago it developed a fault. During calls, usually a couple of minutes in, it switches itself into headphones mode. The workaround when this happens has been to put the phone into speakerphone mode but, naturally, there are occasions when this workaround isn't really appropriate so I decided to get the problem sorted. The phone has also intermittently been struggling to get a signal when other 3G users in my vicinity have been fine.

I made an appointment to get my phone looked at by someone on the Genius Bar at my nearest Apple Store.

His first recommendation was to get a new sim, as his sim appeared to make the phone more responsive than mine. Fair enough, I thought - he's the expert. So I got a new sim and tried it for a week. The signal issue appears to have been resovled but the headphone mode issue remained so I made a second appointment to visit someone on the Genius Bar.

He advised that I should do a factory reset of the OS, without then doing a restore, in case there was a corruption in software. He also opened up the handset and reseated some stuff (out the back so I didn't actually see what).

A week later, the problem remains so I visited the Genius Bar again today to see what they advised next.

The advice was that the phone must be faulty but, as it is more than 12 months old, it was a chargeable replacement. As you might expect, I wasn't impressed by this, but I had anticipated that this might happen and took along a copy of an issue of Which? magazine (I am a subscriber) so that I could present them with an example of a consumer with a similar problem with Dell.

The case cites the Sale of Goods Act which, to quote Which?, says that "Goods must be fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality. Among other things, this means they must last for a reasonable time. What's reasonable depends on the goods, and the cut-off point relates to the time you have to start court action - six years from the date you receive the goods."

Now, the key points here, in my opinion, are as follows:

1) By any 'reasonable' person's measure, it is fair to expect a phone to remain in perfect working order for the duration of the contract it was sold with (in my case 18 months.

2) The phone has been subject to no trauma, exhibits no signs of any trauma, and nor has it been damaged by water or any other kind of contaminant.

I would therefore argue that under the Sale of Goods Act, despite the phone being outside of the manufacturer's 12 months warranty, Apple are legally obliged to repair or replace the phone.

The manager that I spoke to in the store, having read the article, didn't disagree with me about where they stood in relation to the Act but said that he was not allowed by Apple to provide me with a free replacement, despite what the Act says, as his employer defines the rules that he personally has to abide by.

So now I'm at home with my faulty handset and about to start dealing with Apple corporate. Any predictions from anyone how this is going to pan out?

What part of One Year Warranty do you not understand? :rolleyes:
 
So you're saying it's unreasonable to expect the phone to work properly for the entire contract?

I am saying that the law doesn't require it. Maybe it should, but it doesn't.

Fitness for purpose doesn't mean things have to be perfect, failure proof or impervious to damage. There is an implied (and legally valid) contract when you agree to a 12 month warranty when buying an item. Don't like it? Address it BEFORE you buy.
 
So you're saying it's unreasonable to expect the phone to work properly for the entire contract?

I don't think the phone SERVICE contract says anything, anywhere about the device hardware lasting as long as the service you're paying for. The li-ion batteries in the iPhone will start to significantly lose charge after one year if you charge every day. This does not mean that the phone has an inherent manufacturing defect.
 
I am saying that the law doesn't require it. Maybe it should, but it doesn't.

Fitness for purpose doesn't mean things have to be perfect, failure proof or impervious to damage. There is an implied (and legally valid) contract when you agree to a 12 month warranty when buying an item. Don't like it? Address it BEFORE you buy.

If you can persuade the Court that the product should have lasted longer than it did, then that is all that's needed with the Sale of Goods Act. The ear speaker dying before the contract is up is quite obviously a problem that should not occur until the contract is up if it prevents you from using the service that you're paying for.

I don't think the phone SERVICE contract says anything, anywhere about the device hardware lasting as long as the service you're paying for. The li-ion batteries in the iPhone will start to significantly lose charge after one year if you charge every day. This does not mean that the phone has an inherent manufacturing defect.

There's a difference between the battery degrading over time and the ear speaker failing.
 
If you can persuade the Court that the product should have lasted longer than it did, then that is all that's needed with the Sale of Goods Act. The ear speaker dying before the contract is up is quite obviously a problem that should not occur until the contract is up if it prevents you from using the service that you're paying for.



There's a difference between the battery degrading over time and the ear speaker failing.

The OP can easily pay to get the hardware fixed so that he can continue to use service. I don't see how the service contract is inexorably linked to the lifetime of the phone. It says that nowhere in the contract. And why is one part of the phone degrading over time different than another? It's all just phone hardware, and it goes bad.

Oh and to the OP: I know how much court costs because you said how much (80 euros). How much does applecare cost? Looks like 60 euros to me.
 
Oh and to the OP: I know how much court costs because you said how much (80 euros). How much does applecare cost? Looks like 60 euros to me.

Doh. Care to read my post again? Your ability to read and comprehend is perfectly summed up in these few sentences.
 
So you're saying it's unreasonable to expect the phone to work properly for the entire contract?

No, and most do. However, the warranty is 1 year unless you get applecare to extend it over the course of the contract.

The OP chose NOT to do that. It is his problem, not Apple's

I am really confused how this is hard to understand
 
Doh. Care to read my post again? Your ability to read and comprehend is perfectly summed up in these few sentences.

I understand you don't feel the two costs are linked. I'm just saying, you had the chance to have a full warranty at this point, and, to quote Steve, "you blew it." Now you're trying to use the law to weasel your way into a free replacement on "principle." This annoys me.

I'm chatting with my law school friend about this. His response:

"yeah... that's stupid."

This person happens to have dual citizenship in the UK and has spent a large amount of time there.
 
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