iPad Actually, Pros want better Keyboard Support - not mouse

SmackBookPro

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Jan 11, 2018
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No offence to all the die hard mouse support guys on here, but you’re using the argument ‘pros need a mouse’ and cite examples like using a spreadsheet? This to me sounds amateur. I know for a fact, using keyboard shortcuts on Excel for Windows being an example, I’ll beat you to the finish line on every task, all day long vs using the mouse and UI... What we really need is better keyboard support on the iPad. I can see that this has gotten a big improvement in iPad OS, but as soon as apps like Office and other pro apps on iPad adopt full, maybe even a step further keyboard shortcuts for navigating and saving seconds here and there like they do on desktop then I don’t think we’ve unlocked the full potential of the iPad.

How carrying around a physical mouse, needing the space on the desk as well as a keyboard is a pro solution to any tablet user is beyond me. Beyond accessibility I don’t think it needs a place on the iPad. Apple nailed it with what they’ve done. Now, that speak and say the number / letter voice control? If we had that like on Office for Windows with the ALT+Key shortcuts, iPad would become a racetrack for productivity. A mouse Can’t replace a keyboard as an input device, between the two the keyboard wins. It’s faster, can be used comfortably for longer and for inputting large amounts of data As well as navigating UI Swiftly without needing to reach out for a mouse and or lift your hand onto the screen. The mouse setup requires keyboard and lifting hand and mouse. A true pro would eliminate the mouse, learn the shortcuts and reap the rewards.

Who agrees?
 

secretk

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Oct 19, 2018
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No offence to all the die hard mouse support guys on here, but you’re using the argument ‘pros need a mouse’ and cite examples like using a spreadsheet? This to me sounds amateur. I know for a fact, using keyboard shortcuts on Excel for Windows being an example, I’ll beat you to the finish line on every task, all day long vs using the mouse and UI...
It does depend on the task. I agree that there are tasks where keyboard shortcuts are more useful than mouse. In other instances I prefer to use the mouse as it is faster than to go through elements with the keyboard arrows.

What we really need is better keyboard support on the iPad. I can see that this has gotten a big improvement in iPad OS, but as soon as apps like Office and other pro apps on iPad adopt full, maybe even a step further keyboard shortcuts for navigating and saving seconds here and there like they do on desktop then I don’t think we’ve unlocked the full potential of the iPad.
I do think that the better the keyboard support, the better overall for all of us. So no complaints there. And working on mouse support does not mean that keyboard support should not be improved too.

How carrying around a physical mouse, needing the space on the desk as well as a keyboard is a pro solution to any tablet user is beyond me. Beyond accessibility I don’t think it needs a place on the iPad.
I personally have no issues carrying around mouse. I hate trackpads. I carry around mouse with me even when it comes to laptops. Trackpads for me are slow and inefficient. Not to mention that I have some skin issues and touching the trackpad makes my hands feeling iffy. Trackpads in general are not an option for me.

I also have wrist issues and there are cases where I prefer to use the mouse over touch gestures. Not to mention that the iOS gestures are not intuitive at all. I quite often trigger the wrong one. I don't even bother learn gestures that require more than two fingers. I don't need this. Using mouse is just easier.

Also iOS multitasking is just convoluted with iOS gestures. And honestly without the multitasking I would not need the iPad at all. I find the laptop better device for media consumption - bigger screen, better speakers, lappable and stable while being in bed. I use the iPad when I am not home for emails, documents reading and annotating and chatting. I switch between apps quite often and I need a quick way to be able to do so. I also type a lot and the on screen keyboard is not an option for me as it does not provide me efficiently and speed. The moment I use keyboard I want to have the mouse to navigate faster on the screen. Can I use the keyboard. I can but if I want to move the cursor from one corner of the display to another it is quite slow. I do not want to touch the screen as this is inefficient either. Mouse is the better option IMO.

Apple nailed it with what they’ve done. Now, that speak and say the number / letter voice control? If we had that like on Office for Windows with the ALT+Key shortcuts, iPad would become a racetrack for productivity. A mouse Can’t replace a keyboard as an input device, between the two the keyboard wins. It’s faster, can be used comfortably for longer and for inputting large amounts of data As well as navigating UI Swiftly without needing to reach out for a mouse and or lift your hand onto the screen. The mouse setup requires keyboard and lifting hand and mouse. A true pro would eliminate the mouse, learn the shortcuts and reap the rewards.

Who agrees?
Devices are very far from offering good voice control support. I am not English native speaker. Siri does not understand me at all. It is really frustrating to deal with her. I can do whatever I want three times before Siri even gets what I want. Sometimes Siri does not get it at all.

Aside that I use my iPad mostly when I am outside. At home I have my laptop that is just the preferable device for me. It is more lappable, has better screen and yes bigger keyboard that allows me to type faster. Anyway back to the point. I use my iPad when I am in coffee shops and there I would not use voice control. So even if Siri was good at this, I would not use it.
 

sracer

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Apr 9, 2010
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No offence to all the die hard mouse support guys on here, but you’re using the argument ‘pros need a mouse’ and cite examples like using a spreadsheet? This to me sounds amateur. I know for a fact, using keyboard shortcuts on Excel for Windows being an example, I’ll beat you to the finish line on every task, all day long vs using the mouse and UI... What we really need is better keyboard support on the iPad. I can see that this has gotten a big improvement in iPad OS, but as soon as apps like Office and other pro apps on iPad adopt full, maybe even a step further keyboard shortcuts for navigating and saving seconds here and there like they do on desktop then I don’t think we’ve unlocked the full potential of the iPad.

How carrying around a physical mouse, needing the space on the desk as well as a keyboard is a pro solution to any tablet user is beyond me. Beyond accessibility I don’t think it needs a place on the iPad. Apple nailed it with what they’ve done. Now, that speak and say the number / letter voice control? If we had that like on Office for Windows with the ALT+Key shortcuts, iPad would become a racetrack for productivity. A mouse Can’t replace a keyboard as an input device, between the two the keyboard wins. It’s faster, can be used comfortably for longer and for inputting large amounts of data As well as navigating UI Swiftly without needing to reach out for a mouse and or lift your hand onto the screen. The mouse setup requires keyboard and lifting hand and mouse. A true pro would eliminate the mouse, learn the shortcuts and reap the rewards.

Who agrees?
I disagree. I don't understand why you are on a mission to diminish the value of mouse support for those who say they need it.

You have a very narrow view of how keyboard and mice are used in applications like spreadsheets. If you think the only reason for using a mouse is to click on menu items then it appears that you haven't spent much time using spreadsheets.
 

Cape Dave

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I disagree. I don't understand why you are on a mission to diminish the value of mouse support for those who say they need it.

You have a very narrow view of how keyboard and mice are used in applications like spreadsheets. If you think the only reason for using a mouse is to click on menu items then it appears that you haven't spent much time using spreadsheets.
Yup! Why not both? Then WE decide what we want to carry around. Or not.
 

muzzy996

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Feb 16, 2018
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I disagree. I don't understand why you are on a mission to diminish the value of mouse support for those who say they need it.

You have a very narrow view of how keyboard and mice are used in applications like spreadsheets. If you think the only reason for using a mouse is to click on menu items then it appears that you haven't spent much time using spreadsheets.
Yup. The fact that OP can do circles around me using just a keyboard is completely irrelevant to me wanting the ability to use a mouse when I want to.
 

Macintoshrumors

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Not really, I prefer the current keyboard. Also, the mouse support is not meant for “pros” or users, It is meant for disabled bodies to navigate iPadOS that uses assistive touch type features. iPad will never get true mouse support bc its not needed, the pencils and your fingers are the mouse for able bodied people. Apple is technically sticking to their vision of how the iPad is meant to be used
 
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AutomaticApple

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I disagree. I don't understand why you are on a mission to diminish the value of mouse support for those who say they need it.

You have a very narrow view of how keyboard and mice are used in applications like spreadsheets. If you think the only reason for using a mouse is to click on menu items then it appears that you haven't spent much time using spreadsheets.
Narrow is quite accurate... ;)
 

Digitalguy

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Apr 15, 2019
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As things stand now, desktop mouse support makes little sense beyond accessibility. That does not mean it will not make sense in the future.
People have very simplistic thoughts, like just give me mouse support like on mac and windows. It doesn‘t work like that...
Apps need to be updated to support mouse. That’s why apple is bringing ipad apps to mac. It’s only after a number of developers have adapted their app to work with mouse that it will start to make sense. Also Apple needs to solve external monitor support, as this is one of the main cases where mouse is not just useful but essential. And it’s a chicken and egg situation. Desktop like monitor support needs decent mouse support, but apps need to be compatible, otherwise it‘s a partial mess like touch on windows.
 
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Digitalguy

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Best keyboard out there currently is the Logitech keyboard
Best for which ipad, the 3rd gen pro?

In terms of just typing yes, but otherwise it’s pretty bad: poor viewing angle, hard to remove and not lappable.
The first gen pro logitech create was much better, same typing experience, but better angle, easier to remove and lappable...
 

ApfelKuchen

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Another "I want my iPad to be a Mac" thread.

Yeah, I'm a touch-keyboarder from way back. I've used iPad since Day 3 of the first generation iPad, and I've always had a physical keyboard for those iPads. I remember the days pre-Mac/pre-Windows, when keyboard shortcuts were everything. And when the mouse came along, it was clear that keeping both hands on the keyboard was often more efficient than moving one hand back and forth to the mouse. And back before iOS supported some of the most common keyboard shortcuts... it was a bit of a pain.

But I'm also lousy at memorization, so my regular repertoire of keyboard shortcuts amounts to about a dozen or so combinations. GUIs are great for me, because regardless of whether it's mouse/trackpad or touch (and one of these days, I'll do a better job of mastering speech), I can invoke a relatively small repertoire of GUI conventions and find the function I need. Moving a pointer or finger directly to the desired menu or screen element is often far more efficient than using keyboard (or voice) navigation to reach that same element. (As wonderful as Voice Over can be for someone with vision issues, it's still a far less efficient way to get around the screen than the methods available to a sighted person.)

What's my point? This isn't about "Pro" or non-pro. This is about the individual user, and each person finding the method(s) that work best for her/his needs. If one must continue to work in the same, familiar way, with the same tools and conventions, then change of any sort is not going to work. Expecting new tools/methods to be totally backwards-compatible with methods that have been "old-fashioned" for the past 30 years? You may not get your wish. (And let's face it, Mac/Windows apps do not come with nearly as many pre-mapped keyboard combinations as apps designed for keyboard-only entry came with. Just what is the world coming to?)
 

mi7chy

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I remember the days pre-Mac/pre-Windows, when keyboard shortcuts were everything. And when the mouse came along, it was clear that keeping both hands on the keyboard was often more efficient than moving one hand back and forth to the mouse.
That's where the Thinkpad Trackpoint (red nub) comes into play but ultimately a pro device should give you several input choices to best match the task at hand.

 

SmackBookPro

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Original poster
Jan 11, 2018
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I disagree. I don't understand why you are on a mission to diminish the value of mouse support for those who say they need it.

You have a very narrow view of how keyboard and mice are used in applications like spreadsheets. If you think the only reason for using a mouse is to click on menu items then it appears that you haven't spent much time using spreadsheets.
As the late great Steve Jobs would repeat, people don’t know what they want. That’s why Apple don’t follow the path of the Android manufacturers every years while they false-innovate with an array of short sighted features - And Apple knows what it’s doing... a lot better than you or I. And in this case, it’s aligned with what I’m saying.

You’re wrong about my use of spreadsheets, that’s for sure! Lol Perhaps you should speak to some high level Excel users about how they navigate their worksheets for some insight?

Yup! Why not both? Then WE decide what we want to carry around. Or not.
You can decide, PCs and Macs offer Mouse + Keyboard support. They have been developed for decades now to support this and there are even some PCs smaller than iPads if you believe carrying a separate device (e.g. a tablet) and then a keyboard, and then A mouse is ideal, maybe it makes sense to you? Sounds like that’s what you’d prefer, anyway.


^This. There are certain tasks where using a mouse makes more sense than keyboards and vice versa. Choice is good.
Yes, but for these tasks it makes way more sense for you, the individual with that view, to buy a laptop PC or Mac... they exist already. There’s no need to morph the iPad into a duplicate of this IMO.

Is choice good? Look at Android, there’s a lot of Poor choices out there and even the best choices fall short of Apple level attention to detail and fluid ness at best.


Yup. The fact that OP can do circles around me using just a keyboard is completely irrelevant to me wanting the ability to use a mouse when I want to.
It was only expressed as that because of the angle the mouse-evangelists take to try and make a case for mouse support as being needed for ‘pro use’. Pros are largely beyond the mouse for speed and efficiency.

I said it above, there are plenty of laptop PCs and Macs if you really want a mouse. Alternatively, there are Surface Gos etc on the market, priced similarly to the iPad - why ruin iOS optimisation for touch by making mouse support a serious element? It can’t exist in a vacuum.

Not really, I prefer the current keyboard. Also, the mouse support is not meant for “pros” or users, It is meant for disabled bodies to navigate iPadOS that uses assistive touch type features. iPad will never get true mouse support bc its not needed, the pencils and your fingers are the mouse for able bodied people. Apple is technically sticking to their vision of how the iPad is meant to be used
That’s the only good case I can think of for having it. Not because a minority of vocal users feel it’s a requirement.

As things stand now, desktop mouse support makes little sense beyond accessibility. That does not mean it will not make sense in the future.
People have very simplistic thoughts, like just give me mouse support like on mac and windows. It doesn‘t work like that...
Apps need to be updated to support mouse. That’s why apple is bringing ipad apps to mac. It’s only after a number of developers have adapted their app to work with mouse that it will start to make sense. Also Apple needs to solve external monitor support, as this is one of the main cases where mouse is not just useful but essential. And it’s a chicken and egg situation. Desktop like monitor support needs decent mouse support, but apps need to be compatible, otherwise it‘s a partial mess like touch on windows.
I agree. Some of these people can’t understand this concept and it’s very real. Mouse support, done right, would infringe on iOS strengths of being a touch based OS and being out in the field etc. We’d ultimately just end up with a clunkier macOS. These people could really do with respecting the iPads niche, direction and possibility that it will develop into something better than and more than a mouse.

I’d love better external monitor support too btw!

No I want a real mouse, android handles it really well so why can’t iOS? My device should work how I want to work not the other way around
Maybe on Android pal, but Apple tend to design iOS for the masses - most people. That means your minority interest in mouse support isn’t actually a priority for them. If you want a device that works that way, there are plenty on the market - Surface Go To name one good example.

Android handles it well? How many professional grade apps are on Android, how many vendors actually make useful Android tablets? ... look at the sales numbers and you’ll see how much wonder mouse support has made on Android. You could have argued it’d bring Android tablets back from the dead but nope.

Android is a bit like eating what you want, when you want. Sure it’s great at the time, but you start to feel a bit crappy after a while. Apple is like a rich, disciplined diet. You might not get all the sweet stuff all the time but what you do get is far better for you and helps you stand the test of time a lot better. It also seems to taste a lot less bitter ;-)

Another "I want my iPad to be a Mac" thread.

Yeah, I'm a touch-keyboarder from way back. I've used iPad since Day 3 of the first generation iPad, and I've always had a physical keyboard for those iPads. I remember the days pre-Mac/pre-Windows, when keyboard shortcuts were everything. And when the mouse came along, it was clear that keeping both hands on the keyboard was often more efficient than moving one hand back and forth to the mouse. And back before iOS supported some of the most common keyboard shortcuts... it was a bit of a pain.

But I'm also lousy at memorization, so my regular repertoire of keyboard shortcuts amounts to about a dozen or so combinations. GUIs are great for me, because regardless of whether it's mouse/trackpad or touch (and one of these days, I'll do a better job of mastering speech), I can invoke a relatively small repertoire of GUI conventions and find the function I need. Moving a pointer or finger directly to the desired menu or screen element is often far more efficient than using keyboard (or voice) navigation to reach that same element. (As wonderful as Voice Over can be for someone with vision issues, it's still a far less efficient way to get around the screen than the methods available to a sighted person.)

What's my point? This isn't about "Pro" or non-pro. This is about the individual user, and each person finding the method(s) that work best for her/his needs. If one must continue to work in the same, familiar way, with the same tools and conventions, then change of any sort is not going to work. Expecting new tools/methods to be totally backwards-compatible with methods that have been "old-fashioned" for the past 30 years? You may not get your wish. (And let's face it, Mac/Windows apps do not come with nearly as many pre-mapped keyboard combinations as apps designed for keyboard-only entry came with. Just what is the world coming to?)
You know yourself how much the current keyboard shortcuts on iOS have improved things when using a keyboard, you know how the keyboard shortcuts speed up cutting / pasting for example compared to reaching up for the screen. Using a mouse for this on the iPad, right clicking and then right clicking again... that’s a step back. It’s scenarios like this behind my post. A CMD-C and CMD-V can be done in a fraction of a second. Many similar examples exist.

How these guys can make a case for the mouse, beyond “I want it so I should get it” is incredibly silly, short-sighted and flawed - to me.

The discussion is good, but it seems to only reinforce my views initially.
 

ericwn

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Apr 24, 2016
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Best keyboard out there currently is the Logitech keyboard
Which one would that be of the dozens of products they make? And while they make ok keyboards and great mice, I have made some really bad experiences with their case materials. So while the keyboard is usually good the case around them is cheaply made. At least it was for my Air 2 and the two different versions I had for the older Pro.
 

The Game 161

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Which one would that be of the dozens of products they make? And while they make ok keyboards and great mice, I have made some really bad experiences with their case materials. So while the keyboard is usually good the case around them is cheaply made. At least it was for my Air 2 and the two different versions I had for the older Pro.
Their slim folio keyboards are easily the best keyboard outs there currently.

The apple keyboard is slim but boy is the keyboard not as good...same with brydge ones. So hard to type on where you have to push down so hard to type accurately
 

Digitalguy

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Apr 15, 2019
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Their slim folio keyboards are easily the best keyboard outs there currently.

The apple keyboard is slim but boy is the keyboard not as good...same with brydge ones. So hard to type on where you have to push down so hard to type accurately
I think it's personal. While I prefer the typing experience on the logitech I am fine with the apple one, I would even say it's pretty good, and I would take the apple of the logitech for the 3rd gen pro any day for all the inconveniences of the logitech one (poor angle, bulky, hard to put and remove regularly)
I have the opposite feeling when it comes to my 1st gen pro, the create has the same typing feeling but it's much better than the cramped apple one (at 9.7), uses the smart connector (the slim folio uses bluetooth), has a better angle, it's lighter, it's much easier to remove, and is lappable, which neither the slim folio nor the apple 3rd gen one are....). Even the backlighting is better on the create compared to the slim folio. Logitech really went back with it's pro keyboards
 

SmackBookPro

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I had the Slim Folio for iPad Air 3 back in May/June before I sold my first one. It was alright, cool and backlit and very versatile. But, and this is something I never worried much about before, having taken a step back I found I was literally trying to force the iPad into being a laptop and that's where the trouble began.

With my current later bought 256GB Air 3, I use it as a tablet with a Logitech K380 keyboard at the desk at work and home when needed, but more times than not as a tablet, on the go as it was intended and I feel much more free and less restricted from trying to 'shove a square peg in the round hole'.
- - Post merged: - -

That's where the Thinkpad Trackpoint (red nub) comes into play but ultimately a pro device should give you several input choices to best match the task at hand.

The nub is too finicky and in my opinion, worse than a laptop trackpad. I've owned a ThinkPad E470 and X280 for reference.
 
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alien3dx

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That's where the Thinkpad Trackpoint (red nub) comes into play but ultimately a pro device should give you several input choices to best match the task at hand.

Cool. Thinkpad the Best Keyboard.Can work with imac?
 

ApfelKuchen

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That's where the Thinkpad Trackpoint (red nub) comes into play but ultimately a pro device should give you several input choices to best match the task at hand.
This whole "pro" thing rankles. While I'm totally in agreement that multiple input choices are great, it's not pro/vs. everyone else. Multiple input choices/modes of operation are about user friendliness, which cuts across all supposed boundaries between pro and non-pro.

I could generate a long list of professional tools (present and historic, physical and software) that provide fewer choices than consumer-oriented products. In some professional fields there's a distinct, "Pros can tough it out"/"pros will adapt" attitude about user-friendliness.

Multiple input methods is all about user-friendliness - easy transitions to changing technologies. For one example, typesetters adapting to the DTP world. Still, the foot pedals used by Linotypers did not make their way to photo-typesetting - keystrokes were substituted for those foot-strokes.

It often comes down to market size - professional markets are often quite smaller than consumer markets, so the cost of developing features like multiple input methods (or manufacturing application-specific keyboards) on a per-unit-sold basis is much higher.

Would Apple invest as much in Accessibility if their market was solely corporate/professional? It doesn't seem likely. I think Accessibility is a direct outgrowth of Steve Jobs' belief that putting the power of computing into everyone's hands would transform society.

Key combos were not originally introduced as a touch-keyboard-user-friendly feature. They were introduced because there were more functions required than a traditional typewriter keyboard could reasonably encompass. It would be absurd to dedicate a physical key to every function (consider the complexity of a large church/movie theater pipe organ). We have to memorize those combinations, or have a printed cheat-sheet at hand, because there isn't even a way to imprint/engrave all of them on the keys.

That is not user-friendly. It's an adaptation born of necessity. If you want to consider them a "pro" feature, it's a perfect example of the "pros will tough it out" mentality. One way to look at it is that the boss wants greater output at lower cost (high-speed execution of a rich set of features, running on off-the-shelf keyboards rather than dedicated/customized control interfaces), and the employee is forced to work harder (memorization in this case) to deliver on that demand.

And yes, the professional who successfully copes with that demand has acquired a new "professional" skill that may also benefit their off-the-clock activities.
 
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ericwn

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24 posts in and some people still believe this is not just a differentiator or marketing name but that Pro actually stands for Professional.
That kool aid is so delicious!