Add OS X lion and Mountain Lion programs and features to Leopard

[ww2_1943]

Hello all,

Bear in mind I don't have any programing experience so this is coming from a lay perspective.

I was reading up on different versions of OS X and if I understand it correctly, Lion and Mountain Lion are evolutions of Snow Leopard which is an evolution of Leopard. I know that Sorbet Leopard was able to use Safari 11 and QuickTime 7.7 which were released after Snow Leopard. That made me wonder if more features and updated versions of programs be added to Leopard. Could a newer version of the Mail app, ical and Expose be added? What about updated fonts and Apple dictionaries?

How about going a step further and adding AirDrop and FaceTime which debuted with Lion. Or Notes and Messages which came out with Mountain Lion?

How about a fully working version of iTunes!

From what I can see, if this is even possible, it might only work on 64-bit G5 machines.

I look forward to hearing peoples replies!

 

[Amethyst1]

Strictly speaking, macOS Ventura can also be regarded as an evolution of, say, Leopard. It's a newer version of the same operating system, like Windows 11 is a newer version of 1993's Windows NT 3.1.

OS X Lion and up are compiled for 64-bit x86 so simply copying any of their apps to a PPC Mac isn’t going to work — the code just won’t run on PPC. And even if it did, these applications probably depend on libraries etc. which aren't present in Leopard. If we had the source code of these applications (we don't) we could try compiling them for Leopard on PPC.

Our best bet is to find third-party applications which replicate the desired functionality on Leopard.

 

[Dronecatcher]

I was reading up on different versions of OS X and if I understand it correctly, Lion and Mountain Lion are evolutions of Snow Leopard which is an evolution of Leopard. I know that Sorbet Leopard was able to use Safari 11 and QuickTime 7.7 which were released after Snow Leopard. That made me wonder if more features and updated versions of programs be added to Leopard. Could a newer version of the Mail app, ical and Expose be added? What about updated fonts and Apple dictionaries?

QuickTime 7.7 was an official Universal release from Apple.

Sorbet doesn't come with Safari 11 - it's Safari 5 from Leopard updated with 2017 WebKit features from Tobias Netzel - the 11 is cosmetic and for effect only - indeed the real Safari 11 is falling behind now for website compatibility.

The only new for PowerPC software in recent times is open source code that can still be compiled for PowerPC ie InterWebPPC, PPCMC7 (which is a bundle of packages) and Links2.

Macports will give you access to some newish software but the scope is specialised and limited.

 

[ww2_1943]

Strictly speaking, macOS Ventura can also be regarded as an evolution of, say, Leopard. It's a newer version of the same operating system, like Windows 11 is a newer version of 1993's Windows NT 3.1.

OS X Lion and up are compiled for 64-bit x86 so simply copying any of their apps to a PPC Mac isn’t going to work — the code just won’t run on PPC. And even if it did, these applications probably depend on libraries etc. which aren't present in Leopard. If we had the source code of these applications (we don't) we could try compiling them for Leopard on PPC.

Our best bet is to find third-party applications which replicate the desired functionality on Leopard.

I get what you're saying about the evolution of Windows and MacOS. It just seems like Lion and Mountain Lion are much more directly related to Leopard. I'm thinking of how Win 3.1 to Win 98 are pretty compatible with each other. Win 2000-XP seem more related to each other. Vista to 11 are pretty compatible with each other.

I figured it would have to be for 64-bit machines. I should have clarified- I do get that PPC code was no longer supported, aside from in Rosetta, in SL. Source code compiling makes sense. I guess that is why Linux has so much compatibility because you can compile software for your installation. Would you say this is the greatest hurdle in so far as trying to implement features that are present in newer versions of Mac OS?

Your last point makes sense. It just seems like there are less and less programs that can provide that these days. Which, is to be expected. I mean, it is incredible that we have as many work arounds as we do on PPC.

 

[ww2_1943]

QuickTime 7.7 was an official Universal release from Apple.

Sorbet doesn't come with Safari 11 - it's Safari 5 from Leopard updated with 2017 WebKit features from Tobias Netzel - the 11 is cosmetic and for effect only - indeed the real Safari 11 is falling behind now for website compatibility.

The only new for PowerPC software in recent times is open source code that can still be compiled for PowerPC ie InterWebPPC, PPCMC7 (which is a bundle of packages) and Links2.

Macports will give you access to some newish software but the scope is specialised and limited.

Ah okay, Understood about QT 7.

The 11 threw me off! I have to say then, the compatibility on it isn't too bad considering it is Safari 5!

I guess Apple isn't going to make that code open source anytime soon! If ever!

Is it safe to say Leopard is pretty much pushed as far as it will go at this point?

 

[Amethyst1]

I guess Apple isn't going to make that code open source anytime soon! If ever!

All they've made open-source so far is the code to the Darwin kernel and a few bits. See https://opensource.apple.com/releases/

 

[ww2_1943]

All they've made open-source so far is the code to the Darwin kernel and a few bits. See https://opensource.apple.com/releases/

I'm just browsing through the available files. Using Mountain Lion as an example, could someone in theory compile PPC native versions of WebKit using newer source code? Or use that source code to make older versions of webkit more compatible? Or has that been done to some extent already?

I hope you don't mind the questions! I find this all interesting

 

[Dronecatcher]

The 11 threw me off! I have to say then, the compatibility on it isn't too bad considering it is Safari 5!

I guess Apple isn't going to make that code open source anytime soon! If ever!

Is it safe to say Leopard is pretty much pushed as far as it will go at this point?

Well Tobias carried on updating Safari 5 with the latest WebKit until 2017 at which point he could take it no further - I don't know the specifics but I suspect there'd be dependencies that were totally beyond PowerPC.

Similar with TenFourFox.

There's still software that could in theory be written for Leopard - it's just that no one with that kind of time, dedication and skill is doing so.

 

[Amethyst1]

I'm thinking of how Win 3.1 to Win 98 are pretty compatible with each other. Win 2000-XP seem more related to each other. Vista to 11 are pretty compatible with each other.

Windows has always been known for great backwards compatibility. Still, 32-bit software ain't gonna run on 3.1 OOTB (I know about Win32s, but that's not going to make all 32-bit software run).
2000 and XP are closely related. I mean, 2000 is NT 5.0, XP is NT 5.1. And there are efforts to make software that requires XP run on 2000.

I guess that is why Linux has so much compatibility because you can compile software for your installation.

Having access to the source code means anybody can mess with it, but backwards and forwards compatibility is still not infinite because at some point, you're probably going to run into dependency problems. Trying to compile the latest Firefox source code on a 25-year-old Linux distro isn't going to be fun; on the other hand, there can't be many people out there who'd be interested in attempting that.

Would you say this is the greatest hurdle in so far as trying to implement features that are present in newer versions of Mac OS?

Disclaimer: I'm not a programmer myself. It's definitely a hurdle.

 

[ww2_1943]

Well Tobias carried on updating Safari 5 with the latest WebKit until 2017 at which point he could take it no further - I don't know the specifics but I suspect there'd be dependencies that were totally beyond PowerPC.

Similar with TenFourFox.

There's still software that could in theory be written for Leopard - it's just that no one with that kind of time, dedication and skill is doing so.

Time, there is never enough time!

 

[ww2_1943]

One more question! It looks like Webkit can be complied in Linux. https://eleni.mutantstargoat.com/hikiko/wpe/
Does that mean I could (if I knew what I was doing) compile webkit from Catalina on Void Linux running on a G5? Or are we running into limitations with PPC, the Linux distro, etc.?

 

[Amethyst1]

Similar with TenFourFox.

And since Cameron Kaiser likes Tiger more than Leopard, he made sure the browser works on Tiger rather than focussing on the last official release of Mac OS X on PPC (and cutting off G3s in the process).

Does that mean I could (if I knew what I was doing) compile webkit from Catalina on Void Linux running on a G5?

As long as all dependencies are met, yes. (But it's always possible that something just doesn't build on a certain architecture.)

For instance, I compiled the CDE source on Debian on an iBook G4 because there were no binary packages for CDE on PPC when I did this. And fortunately, it just worked.

 

[Dronecatcher]

Does that mean I could (if I knew what I was doing) compile webkit from Catalina on Void Linux running on a G5? Or are we running into limitations with PPC, the Linux distro, etc.?

The problem specific to web browsers is, even if you could make a new browser for PPC that is fully compliant, imagine how slow it would be on anything less than multicore G5s?

Try running Windows 10/Edge on a single core, sub 2GHz PC as a comparison.

The best option would be to make a limited browser like Links2 (have you tried it?) - which doesn't offer many features but is fast enough to be of use.

 

[ww2_1943]

The problem specific to web browsers is, even if you could make a new browser for PPC that is fully compliant, imagine how slow it would be on anything less than multicore G5s?

Try running Windows 10/Edge on a single core, sub 2GHz PC as a comparison.

The best option would be to make a limited browser like Links2 (have you tried it?) - which doesn't offer many features but is fast enough to be of use.

I have to find a dual core G5! I get what you're saying. I have Windows 10 running on a Core Duo and that is slow enough.

I did download Links2 on one of my computers but I couldn't figure out how to use it as a graphical browser. I am looking at the page on Mac Garden right now. It looks like I had the choice to choose text or graphics when I first used it.

 

[Dronecatcher]

I did download Links2 on one of my computers but I couldn't figure out how to use it as a graphical browser. I am looking at the page on Mac Garden right now. It looks like I had the choice to choose text or graphics when I first used it.

You have to have X11 installed for the graphical version.
Of course, using it from Terminal is not many people's idea of fun but it does bring online functionality to the lowest spec G3s even on Panther!

There is still reason to be optimistic about PPC developments - enthusiasts tend to produce work whether they have the requisite skills or not.

I myself have zero coding ability but a few years ago managed to pipe youtube-dl into MPlayer to allow Youtube playback - even on G3s - which was a first at the time (quickly superseded by @Lastic compiling SMTube and @alex_free with his marvellous PPCMC7.)

 

[ww2_1943]

You have to have X11 installed for the graphical version.
Of course, using it from Terminal is not many people's idea of fun but it does bring online functionality to the lowest spec G3s even on Panther!

There is still reason to be optimistic about PPC developments - enthusiasts tend to produce work whether they have the requisite skills or not.

I myself have zero coding ability but a few years ago managed to pipe youtube-dl into MPlayer to allow Youtube playback - even on G3s - which was a first at the time (quickly superseded by @Lastic compiling SMTube and @alex_free with his marvellous PPCMC7.)

I know I installed X11 on the machine I tried it on. It might have been my G5. I'll check later. Using it from terminal reminded me of using terminal computer to browser the internet at the library in the early 90s!

That's neat! I would love to figure out a way to build an app to work with OneDrive. I can access OneDrive with my G5 and even my G4 Pismo (Very Very Very slow)

It appears that MS posted some source code for OneDrive so it can be integrated into apps. Dang, I wish I could make heads or tails of it though.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

One more question! It looks like Webkit can be complied in Linux.

It can! The Linux port is generally known as webkit-gtk.

And the really neat part is, MacPorts can actually compile webkit-gtk for older versions of macOS: https://ports.macports.org/port/webkit2-gtk/details/

Now, I've used this, it doesn't work that well. But, it often feels 95% of the way there. I think if a talented developer were to go through and debug some of the crashes, it could be quite good!

The webkit2-gtk port appears to only compile down to 10.6 at the moment, so no PPC support. But there too, a talented developer with the time and inclination could probably find and fix whatever is breaking Leopard and/or PPC.

Speaking of, MacPorts backports quite a few developer-facing features from new macOS to old macOS: https://github.com/macports/macports-legacy-support

Now, you might look at this list and say "fdopendir? What kind of feature is that?" It's actually a very important feature—it's a syscall that allows software to run on a given operating system.

 

[ww2_1943]

It can! The Linux port is generally known as webkit-gtk.

And the really port is, MacPorts can actually compile webkit-gtk for older versions of macOS: https://ports.macports.org/port/webkit2-gtk/details/

Now, I've used this, it doesn't work that well. But, it often feels 95% of the way there, I think if it had a talented developer to go through and debug some of the crashes, it could be quite good!

It also doesn't appear to compile on PPC at the moment, but there too, a talented developer with the time and inclination might be able to message that into working.

Neat! Thanks for the response.
I wish I knew what I was doing! I don’t work in IT at all, actually l, I work in the humanities! I think that’s why I like this hobby though. It’s fun to revive “old” tech and it appeals to the more mechanical part (especially rebuilding computers) of my brain that doesn’t get use otherwise.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

Fwiw, it looks like there have been attempts to get webkit2-gtk working on PPC:

#64994 (WIP on webkit2 for PowerPC) – MacPorts

trac.macports.org

webkit2-gtk-devel: Patches to build WTF on Tiger/PPC by evanmiller · Pull Request #12009 · macports/macports-ports

Description Backporting webkit2-gtk by a single OS version is clearly an undertaking, so taking one bite of the elephant at a time. Included are patches to get the WTF (Web Template Framework) comp...

github.com